What is the problem this city has with collecting what is owed?

**brizee** · December-23-12, 06:34 PM

What is so goddamned difficult?

Figure out who owes property and income taxes, fines, tickets and outstanding bills and collect.

Bing announced a team in April but nothing has come of it.

Is he REALLY this fucking incompetent?

I'm truly starting to think Bing is some type of Manchurian candidate.

**313WX** · December-23-12, 06:48 PM

For one, a lot of the establishment that are delinquent on their taxes are in downtown/midtown [[Louie's Ham/Corned Beef and the Majestic Theatre come to mind).

I wonder how many of them would close shop overnight if the city were to ever call in its debts?

Besides, despite the hot air shooting out of Bing's mouth, the city doesn't/will never have the monpower/resources to enforce the blight ordinances it already has on the books. He's just posturing to stave off the appointment of an EFM.

As far as tickets and fines, the DPD is stopping just short of walking off the job right now. After Bing and Snyder shoved a 20% pay cut and 12 hour shifts down their throats, the last thing they're going to do is waste their time and energy stopping people who are going 10-15 MPH over the speed limit and going through the motions with the dysfunctional 36th District Court.

**Honky Tonk** · December-23-12, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

What is so goddamned difficult?

Figure out who owes property and income taxes, fines, tickets and outstanding bills and collect.

Bing announced a team in April but nothing has come of it.

Is he REALLY this fucking incompetent?

I'm truly starting to think Bing is some type of Manchurian candidate.

"Hey man, YOU owe me money! But you know what, I could be wrong......" Unbelievable!

**corktownyuppie** · December-23-12, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by brizee

What is so goddamned difficult?

Figure out who owes property and income taxes, fines, tickets and outstanding bills and collect.

Bing announced a team in April but nothing has come of it.

Is he REALLY this fucking incompetent?

I'm truly starting to think Bing is some type of Manchurian candidate.

What makes it difficult is that all of our city's bookkeeping and record-keeping processes are outdated and disorganized. Updating the systems to more modernized [[and digitized) systems needs 4 things:

[[1) money to implement
[[2) training employees to run the new systems
[[3) overcoming the cultural resistance to change
[[4) accepting that many will lose jobs in the process

Since #1, #3, and #4 of these are non-starters in city politics, we're stuck with "keeping receipts in a shoebox".

**mam2009** · December-23-12, 07:25 PM

What is so goddamned difficult? The article very clearly says what the difficulty is. The City has not had the resources to invest in updating it's antiquated systems. I am one of the first to say that many of Detroit's problems require better management, but THIS problem is about not having MONEY. The Consent Agreement should have thoroughly addressed the State providing financial assistance to the City in updating its financial systems [[and training the employees to use those systems) so the City could improve revenue collection efforts -- that's ”teaching a man to fish”. That's helping us help ourselves. The consent agreement in place now isn't worth the paper its printed on. It was rushed into because of asinine, rigid timelines in the now dead PA4.

I hope the new law is more flexible so that cities aren't unduly coerced into making ill-advised decisions that add to its problems rather than help. Alot of time & resources have been wasted on trying to enforce a bad law.

**corktownyuppie** · December-23-12, 07:28 PM

Ha...I was going to post something like this about recordkeeping in the water dept, but I've been beaten to the punch...

Just how bad is record-keeping in the city of Detroit?

And it's not just taxes, it's DWSD, parking tickets, title, etc. Why do you think so many of us are totally fine with state control? Brizee asks "What is so goddamned difficult"? I think most people are in agreement.

Since city employees can't do it, then let's shovel it off to Wayne County, Lansing, or some private 3rd party that can.

**Honky Tonk** · December-23-12, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Ha...I was going to post something like this about recordkeeping in the water dept, but I've been beaten to the punch...

Just how bad is record-keeping in the city of Detroit?

And it's not just taxes, it's DWSD, parking tickets, title, etc. Why do you think so many of us are totally fine with state control? Brizee asks "What is so goddamned difficult"? I think most people are in agreement.

Since city employees can't do it, then let's shovel it off to Wayne County, Lansing, or some private 3rd party that can.

THAT was all Hamtragedy's fault. He should have TAUGHT the clerk how to send him a tax assessment.

**mwilbert** · December-23-12, 07:49 PM

I have long maintained that the inability of the city to perform the most basic aspects of municipal administration is one of the major reasons Detroit is as messed up as it is. Whenever I say this, I get responses about how cities across industrial America have similar problems, and of course that is true, but for the purposes of the residents and businesses of the city, there is a substantial difference between a declining but well-run city, and a declining and not-run city, one of the differences being that a well-run city is able to collect revenue and spend it efficiently, while a not-run city can do neither.

Although I wish that Detroit were not in such a financial mess, I am looking forward to an outside manager coming in and cleaning house. If done well, it may convince people that competent administration is actually worth having.

**Richard** · December-23-12, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by mam2009

What is so goddamned difficult? The article very clearly says what the difficulty is. The City has not had the resources to invest in updating it's antiquated systems. I am one of the first to say that many of Detroit's problems require better management, but THIS problem is about not having MONEY. The Consent Agreement should have thoroughly addressed the State providing financial assistance to the City in updating its financial systems [[and training the employees to use those systems) so the City could improve revenue collection efforts -- that's ”teaching a man to fish”. That's helping us help ourselves. The consent agreement in place now isn't worth the paper its printed on. It was rushed into because of asinine, rigid timelines in the now dead PA4.

I hope the new law is more flexible so that cities aren't unduly coerced into making ill-advised decisions that add to its problems rather than help. Alot of time & resources have been wasted on trying to enforce a bad law.

Why does it always come down to being broke or it is easy to say that I guess.

"City officials are more than two years behind in spending Community Development Block Grants [[CDBG), which can be used to demolish abandoned houses, revitalize neighborhoods and create new jobs.

Detroit receives about $33 million in CDBD funding per year. Because Detroit is now in its third year of failing to spend the money, funds have accumulated to nearly $70 million. If they do not spend the money by May 2, they could lose more money and future grants.

The city has already been accused of mismanaging other grant funds, forced to return $9.2 million in funding for home weatherization and misusing $3 million in grants intended for the poor. The federal government has also required the city to return nearly $10 million for failin to spend any money on the Head Start early childhood education program since 2005.

Detroit Mayor Dave Bing said the city inherited old technology and a mismanaged grant system.

http://commongood2012.org/news/detro...-mismanagement

How does a city inherit old technology? is that kinda like somebody passed away and gave the city a commodore 64 in their will??

Shollin · December-23-12, 10:14 PM

Collecting debt isn't as easy as people think. Why do you think companies sell debt to collection companies for pennies on the dollar? I work in foreclosure and it takes resources to collect and/or repossess.

**poobert** · December-23-12, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Why does it always come down to being broke or it is easy to say that I guess.

"City officials are more than two years behind in spending Community Development Block Grants [[CDBG), which can be used to demolish abandoned houses, revitalize neighborhoods and create new jobs.

Detroit receives about $33 million in CDBD funding per year. Because Detroit is now in its third year of failing to spend the money, funds have accumulated to nearly $70 million. If they do not spend the money by May 2, they could lose more money and future grants.

The city has already been accused of mismanaging other grant funds, forced to return $9.2 million in funding for home weatherization and misusing $3 million in grants intended for the poor. The federal government has also required the city to return nearly $10 million for failin to spend any money on the Head Start early childhood education program since 2005.

Detroit Mayor Dave Bing said the city inherited old technology and a mismanaged grant system.

http://commongood2012.org/news/detro...-mismanagement

How does a city inherit old technology? is that kinda like somebody passed away and gave the city a commodore 64 in their will??

Whether it's "entitled" city residents and employees, or old computers, you can bet it is somebody else's fault - anyone but Dave Bing's.

Okay, so your computers are old. Tough shit. Unless you're working for a Fortune 500 Company, chances are that is the case nowadays. If I said to my boss, "Oh, sorry, I couldn't do my job, my computer is old" I'd get fired, as I well should. You can bet my computer is a steaming pile of shit, and that of my staff is even worse, but you know what? We work with what we've got. If I told my boss I couldn't spend 20 million fucking dollars from the feds because my computer is old, I'd be drawn, quartered, and my privy parts cut off. Get the picture, BING?

So your technology is out of date. Cry me a fucking river. Well, they've been collecting taxes, in other places besides here, anyway, for the past 6,000 years, without computers for most of that chunk of history. Maybe if you weren't a retarded asshole and didn't employ a bunch of morons, you could too. Just a thought, darling.

And Mayor Bing, I just got and paid my tax bill, which should buy you a pretty nice PC, so get the job done or you're fired, you slack-jawed troglodyte.

**Honky Tonk** · December-24-12, 03:54 AM

Here's a quote from another post: "

Above all, what pisses me off the most is the the city of Detroit spent money in 2005 to upgrade signals with LED inserts that were 50-60 years in service. The signals were then decommissioned/removed or replaced less than two years later. THEN, the new signals were then upgraded again and now they are being decommissioned. All of this happening within a span of 7 years and millions of dollars later."

"Moron's" is an insult to all Moron's.

**Hermod** · December-24-12, 05:36 AM

Question: What do you call 144 Detroit civil servants?

Answer: Gross incompetence

**Dexlin** · December-24-12, 06:55 AM

Whatever happened to farming out collections to the State? Wasn't that the proposal two or three years ago? I also remember them saying that their is so much outstanding debt that if they were theoretically able to collect it all at once, Detroit wouldn't even have a budget deficit, which just blows my mind. If even they were only able to collect a quarter of that, that would be huge for the budget.

Anyway, none of this will matter in a few weeks when the State comes in. When Snyder comes in, we won't just see collections sped up, but you better believe the emergency manager is going to raise taxes along with whatever cuts they end up making.

**Hamtragedy** · December-24-12, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

THAT was all Hamtragedy's fault. He should have TAUGHT the clerk how to send him a tax assessment.

Hey, it was like that when I got there.

I've got customers who requested DWSD install meters......10 years ago. They're still getting unmetered water. Maybe DWSD is understaffed.....ever try callin' 'em?

**GOAT** · December-24-12, 04:06 PM

The city should be made to go bankrupt and the Feds take it over. It is the only way to move forward. The city can't keep saying they "don't have the resources", "they can't hire police" etc. and then give out bonuses.
Sorry, but the city is in a spiral and can't even get the revenue owed to them collected so that they can hire the proper people to actually do a decent job.. Pull the frickin plug already!

**canuck** · December-24-12, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit_uke

So...last week I got a letter from the City of Detroit stating that I owed $700 in INCOME tax from....are you ready 1987!!!!!!!!! Like in 25 years ago,. I called and told them that was taken care of...I was told by the woman that "her" records didn't show that...and...HER records showed that we owed additional monies from 1993!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She was soooooooo rude.....told me that the city was going back 25 years....RUDE RUDE RUDE....Asked why the City never addressed my husband when he worked for the City...she had no record of that....said she'd talk to him now...I told her to hold on while I got his urn and ashes....
The City has no records of payments made.....this is more than OLD computers........I am still shaking my head - 1987!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Totally nuts. Isnt there a statute of limitations on this kind of thing? I mean, who keeps personal records for that long anyways? Wow. How can anyone prove this. I symp-o-thize.

**noggin** · December-25-12, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Here's a quote from another post: "

Above all, what pisses me off the most is the the city of Detroit spent money in 2005 to upgrade signals with LED inserts that were 50-60 years in service. The signals were then decommissioned/removed or replaced less than two years later. THEN, the new signals were then upgraded again and now they are being decommissioned. All of this happening within a span of 7 years and millions of dollars later."

"Moron's" is an insult to all Moron's.

No big deal. It was paid by stimulus money. How should we pay for stimulus money? I know, tax the rich. That's the ticket.

serpico · December-25-12, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by noggin

No big deal. It was paid by stimulus money. How should we pay for stimulus money? I know, tax the rich. That's the ticket.

If the rich would use private money for development instead of bank/government money then we wouldnt have all this over built abandon sprawl....

**Honky Tonk** · December-25-12, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by noggin

No big deal. It was paid by stimulus money. How should we pay for stimulus money? I know, tax the rich. That's the ticket.

No offense, noggin, but I fail to see what a Federal loan has to do with the incompetence of leaders running ANY organization? The issue here is not where the money came from, but what was done with it. If the poster is correct, it looks like it was pissed away. No master game plan, and a serious lack of communication between the horses pulling the cart. Secondly, since you brought it up, I don't think the rich should publicly flogged, but @ the same time, does it really sound fair that one of modest means pays 50% in taxes, while someone who has "made it" on the backs of the working class, pays 14%? Yes, tax the rich, let EVERYONE pay their FAIR share. No more, no less. After all, we ARE supposed to be living in a Democracy. But that isn't what this thread is about. [[steps down from soapbox).

**noggin** · December-25-12, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

No offense, noggin, but I fail to see what a Federal loan has to do with the incompetence of leaders running ANY organization? The issue here is not where the money came from, but what was done with it. If the poster is correct, it looks like it was pissed away. No master game plan, and a serious lack of communication between the horses pulling the cart. Secondly, since you brought it up, I don't think the rich should publicly flogged, but @ the same time, does it really sound fair that one of modest means pays 50% in taxes, while someone who has "made it" on the backs of the working class, pays 14%? Yes, tax the rich, let EVERYONE pay their FAIR share. No more, no less. After all, we ARE supposed to be living in a Democracy. But that isn't what this thread is about. [[steps down from soapbox).

Typical progressive drivel. The real facts that most of 1% pay for the state and federal government to piss away money. After all it's being paid by the rich. The lower end of the income class does not pay income tax but actually gets more money back than what is paid in taxes. Why worry? Its other people's money. In places like Detroit and Wayne County most of the voters do not care about financial corruption and incompetence because when one does not pay taxes they can keep voting the same people back in year after year.

There is a segment of the super rich such as Bill Gates and Warren Buffet that do pay that low of taxes. However when government tries to get these people, it alway ends up taxing the job creators who choose to build businesses in the US. For example congress created the AMT to get the super rich. Now every year congress has to create an exception for the middle class because of inflation since the 70s. Fair share is just another codeword for redistribution of wealth.

**313WX** · December-25-12, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by noggin

Typical progressive dribble.

Just like you're posting typical conservative "dribble?"

BTW, it's drivel, not "dribble" as in dribbling a basketball.

Fact of the mater is, like with all arguments such as these, you're both right and wrong. Yes, the super wealthy pay a larger portion of the taxes in this country on an absolute basis. That still doesn't mean lower income people don't pay taxes, or rather their tax dollars are less important. Just as well, spending moeny isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you're doing so wisely [[for example, investing in infrastruture without the use of a credit you'll never be able to pay back).

**MSUguy** · December-25-12, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by noggin

Typical progressive dribble. The real facts that most of 1% pay for the state and federal government to piss away money. After all it's being paid by the rich. The lower end of the income class does not pay income tax but actually gets more money back than what is paid in taxes. Why worry? Its other people's money. In places like Detroit and Wayne County most of the voters do not care about financial corruption and incompetence because when one does not pay taxes they can keep voting the same people back in year after year.

The real facts are that local and state taxes account for the majority of taxes paid by lower income earners. The focus on federal income taxes alone, is a not so thinly veiled attempt at classicism, in order justify more trickle down economics.

As you can see, the poorer you are, the more state and local taxes bite into your income. As you get richer, those taxes recede, and you’re mainly getting hit be federal taxes. So that’s another lesson: When you omit state and local taxes from your analysis, you’re omitting the taxes that hit lower-income taxpayers hardest.
But here is really the only tax graph you need: It’s total tax burden by income group. And as you’ll see, every income group is paying something, and the rich aren’t paying much more, as a percentage of their incomes, then the middle class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-of-tax-data/

**Honky Tonk** · December-25-12, 12:46 PM

"BTW, it's drivel, not "dribble" as in dribbling a basketball."

That's not necessarily true. It could also be dribble, like the liquidy, gooey stuff that comes out of the mouth of a small child, or a senile adult.

"it alway ends up taxing the job creators who choose to build businesses in the US"

In that case, let me ask you something. The tax cuts have been in effect for 8 Bush years, [[I know, I used the "B" word), and 4 of the Obama years. Where are all these "created" jobs? Asia, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Brazil, etc. Where is all the income and tax revenue from these job creators? Well, who knows, you know? But for the last 12 years, I'm still paying my 50%, and they're using my roads, security, and other infrastructure I helped pay for, mostly.

**Wesley Mouch** · December-25-12, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by MSUguy

The real facts are that local and state taxes account for the majority of taxes paid by lower income earners. The focus on federal income taxes alone, is a not so thinly veiled attempt at classicism, in order justify more trickle down economics.

As you can see, the poorer you are, the more state and local taxes bite into your income. As you get richer, those taxes recede, and you’re mainly getting hit be federal taxes. So that’s another lesson: When you omit state and local taxes from your analysis, you’re omitting the taxes that hit lower-income taxpayers hardest.
But here is really the only tax graph you need: It’s total tax burden by income group. And as you’ll see, every income group is paying something, and the rich aren’t paying much more, as a percentage of their incomes, then the middle class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-of-tax-data/

I'll fall out of my radical right tea-party image here, and point out two terrible tax abuses against the working person.

1) Social Security cap. Remove it now. There's no reason today why those who earn over $100,000 are exempted on their income over $100,000. This is a huge benefit to the wealthy that's easy and fair to remove.

2) Mortgage Interest Deducation. I know it sounds great, but the majority of working people don't really get much benefit. If they didn't have this, many working people would get the basic exemption anyway. Its obscene that this benefits mostly those with massively expensive homes -- who of course have massively huge mortgage interest payments that taxpayers subsidize. Its meant to help home ownership. In practice, it encourages McMansions. Have a big house if you can so afford. But without a tax break, please.

Fight on, working brothers.