[Reopened!] Kercheval at Wayburn will be closed to traffic in Grosse Pointe Park.

**stasu1213** · December-26-12, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Yeah, I was reading some GP crime stats and some were careless things one could argue like leaving cars unlocked and garage doors open. We Detroiter's have long given up such practices. Then there are open face to face robberies in the day time.

We Detroiters had given up such practices resulting in the riff raff being bold enough to make GP their prey. I would love to live in a community where I could leave my garage door open and car doors unlock. My tax dollars would pay for the police protection even if it would resulting the cops to profile and harrass suspicious looking characters. GP had slackened on those practices. As late as the 90's GP was considered a "Sundown town". Criminals would not dare to look across Mack, Morross, nor Alter. They knew what would happen to them if they came across those invisible lines. More single parent mothers from Detroit had moved into the Parks within the past 10 years. Not saying that crime are done by some of their sons. Sometime crime could be caused by perpetrators who live in GP for many years. There are many Meth addicts in all suburban communities

**Dexlin** · December-27-12, 02:24 AM

You do know what a Sundown Town is, right? You forget yourself, which is good for everyone else.

Wow, just wow. This site. And people wonder why I'm always gobsmacked. This place can leave a grown man breathless. If it's not the thinly veiled racism [[and, as we can see, sometimes not veiled at all), it's the unfettered and disgustingly proud stupidity and ignorance that will get you.

The only comfort I take from these discussions is that you can only delay and not stop progress in this region, and while it's been painful to see the many delays, I know this ignorance and provincialism will be conquered if Metro Detroit has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

Talking about Sundown Towns in a favorable light? The f$ck you on?

**DetroitPlanner** · December-27-12, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

Talking about Sundown Towns in a favorable light? The f$ck you on?

You're a good man Dexlin. I thought the same thing.

Unfortunately there are many posters here who hear a word, they don't know what it means and they use it. You get this a lot from people who only have bad things to say about Mayor Young, or hear that Light Rail is the only transit improvement that will save us. Essentially you get a lot of parrots hear who say things without knowing what they mean. Some are hear to learn, others are here to argue.

**Zacha341** · December-27-12, 08:19 AM

The Pointes in general are still 'get out of Dodge' territory relative to driving per speeding... I don't mean someone clocking 47 in a 35 zone. I mean when the sign says 35 you better not go 36 mph over! Or you WILL BE STOPPED!

You can always tell someone who is not familiar with their tight traffic speed enforcement, you see them pulled over all along Jefferson beyond Alter even a block or into Detroit by the GP Police. And of course anyone presenting with warrants, no car insurance, suspended license or other 'issues' will have a very bad day when stopped.

Originally Posted by stasu1213

...As late as the 90's GP was considered a "Sundown town". Criminals would not dare to look across Mack, Morross, nor Alter. They knew what would happen to them if they came across those invisible lines.

**Gistok** · December-27-12, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

The Pointes in general are still 'get out of Dodge' territory relative to driving per speeding... I don't mean someone clocking 47 in a 35 zone. I mean when the sign says 35 you better not go 36 mph over! Or you WILL BE STOPPED!

You can always tell someone who is not familiar with their tight traffic speed enforcement, you see them pulled over all along Jefferson beyond Alter even a block or into Detroit by the GP Police. And of course anyone presenting with warrants, no car insurance, suspended license or other 'issues' will have a very bad day when stopped.

My experience was a little different.... before Christmas 2011 I drove eastwards on Mack Ave.... and got pulled over by GPP police. It seemed that my one brake light was out. He gave me a ticket with instructions. I replaced the bulb the following week, drove down to the GPP police station, saw the officer who issued it in the parking lot as I got out of the car... he came up to me, checked my citation, checked my now working brake light... took the ticket and my one dollar bill, shook my hand wishing me a safe holiday, and walked the ticket into the police station himself... leaving me stunned at the unexpected cordiality that I was unaccustomed to...

**Zacha341** · December-27-12, 09:05 AM

^^^ Oh, I did say they would not be cordial... they are just very thorough [[driver best have their paperwork intact). And precise about any level of speeding, which is ok with me as I rarely speed while driving... lead-footers will find it challenging.

**Gistok** · December-27-12, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

^^^ Oh, I did say they would not be cordial... they are just very thorough [[driver best have their paperwork intact). And precise about any level of speeding, which is ok with me as I rarely speed while driving... lead-footers will find it challenging.

No Zacha341... you were quite right... I was just unprepared for that type of treatment from ANY police department... They're usually much more business like and emotionally detached...

**Zacha341** · December-27-12, 09:39 AM

That's a good point. Yeah, I am usually treated very well when stopped by the police, which thankfully does not happen often.

Originally Posted by Gistok

No Zacha341... you were quite right... I was just unprepared for that type of treatment from ANY police department... They're usually much more business like and emotionally detached...

**stasu1213** · December-27-12, 10:22 AM

I did not speak highly of the "Sundown Town" from a Detroiter's view. From a Grosse Pointer's view during that era that concept had kept their neighborhood free of burglary, armed robberies, snatch and grab, and panhandling. There had bad incidents of robberies and snatch and runs in the GPs which was done by people who were caucasian. There was an incident where a young white adult was caught breaking into cars in GP taking cell phones left on the seats and other items. There were a drug bust in one of the high schools in GP a few years ago. Let us not forget the Bashara case. Caribou Coffee in the Village had experienced a snatch and run earlier this year where a white guy with tatooes came into the shop and grabbed the tip jar full of money and trotted out the store. There are many communities who want their safety personel to get tough on crime. Sad to say that getting tough includes profiling. There are a couple of bloggers on this site who are infuriated on my using the "Sundown Concept". They should be as infuriated on the blocking of Kercheval to keep out some of the same people that Sundown told to get out by sunset

**mam2009** · December-27-12, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I did not speak highly of the "Sundown Town" from a Detroiter's view. From a Grosse Pointer's view during that era that concept had kept their neighborhood free of burglary, armed robberies, snatch and grab, and panhandling. There had bad incidents of robberies and snatch and runs in the GPs which was done by people who were caucasian. There was an incident where a young white adult was caught breaking into cars in GP taking cell phones left on the seats and other items. There were a drug bust in one of the high schools in GP a few years ago. Let us not forget the Bashara case. Caribou Coffee in the Village had experienced a snatch and run earlier this year where a white guy with tatooes came into the shop and grabbed the tip jar full of money and trotted out the store. There are many communities who want their safety personel to get tough on crime. Sad to say that getting tough includes profiling. There are a couple of bloggers on this site who are infuriated on my using the "Sundown Concept". They should be as infuriated on the blocking of Kercheval to keep out some of the same people that Sundown told to get out by sunset

So...what was the point in mentioning single Detroit mothers moving to Grosse Pointe? What WERE you implying?

**Honky Tonk** · December-27-12, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by mam2009

So...what was the point in mentioning single Detroit mothers moving to Grosse Pointe? What WERE you implying?

If it doesn't exist, inject it!

**Mackinaw** · December-27-12, 05:12 PM

I appreciate the posts that have put some sanity into this discussion. First, we've noted how incredibly low the petty crime rate is in GP Park, miraculous in light of the level of wealth next to poverty. Second, we've noted that there may be legal barriers to this proposed barrier.

Finally, whether the original post fairly describes an actual proposal has also been called into question. GP Park is putting a lot of much needed emphasis on making its last 4-5 blocks of Kercheval a true downtown with fresh offerings. Several new restaurants, possibly great ones, are going in. I have heard that the City wishes to make those blocks into a pedestrian mall, banning all cars whether from GP or Detroit, for certain periods of time. Though I strongly query the goodness of such a proposal for accomplishing their aims of improved downtown retailing and such, it appears that this may be the proposal that some are conflating with something worse.

Now of course, that 'something worse' is a dastardly measure that has already been implemented on one-third to one-half of the streets leading one across Alter Road.

That said, I am not even sure that new roadblocks would receive political support. Kercheval is an extremely useful thoroughfare. And GP Park ain't such a conservative bastion any more.

Shollin · December-27-12, 05:35 PM

Here's a copy of the article when Harper Woods put out the proposal. It briefly mentions Grosse Pointe Park and Palmer Woods.

http://michigansecuritynews.blogspot...e-sacs-to.html

**Hermod** · December-27-12, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mackinaw

And GP Park ain't such a conservative bastion any more.

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

**Bham1982** · December-27-12, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by mam2009

So...what was the point in mentioning single Detroit mothers moving to Grosse Pointe? What WERE you implying?

You know exactly what was implied, and what is implied is almost certainly correct.

When a community has a significant number of low income people moving into their jurisdiction, problems result. Obviously in the case of the Pointes, most of those will come from Detroit, and just going by demographics, most will be African American and single-parent.

The single biggest investment most people have is their home. When that's threatened, they will fight to preserve their assets. No way in hell do I want poor folks on Section 8 moving in next to me.

Call me a bigot, a classist or whatever, but my wealth is mostly tied up in my home, and we know that property values decline when neighborhoods transition downward in terms of economics.

**Bham1982** · December-27-12, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mackinaw

. And GP Park ain't such a conservative bastion any more.

This has nothing to do with conservative, or white, or WASP bluehairs.

You think liberals, or gays, or African Americans prefer declining property values or rising crime?

Southfield is overwhelmingly black and Democrat, and practically the entire civic discourse is based around stopping more Section 8 folks from moving in and bringing down their property values.

There's a proposed WalMart in Southfield that has folks raging mad and angry about low income folks coming in and shopping. These angry homeowners are almost all black. You can't really blame folks for wanting to protect their assets and their families.

**Zacha341** · December-28-12, 07:10 AM

Very well stated and reasoned comment. The 'wink-wink' justification attitude towards crime so long as it's happening to a certain demographic is crazy! The blow-back of that thinking speaks in part to why we have so much crime in Detroit. As you point out some of the suburbs are not a 100% demographic. And black people are complaining about the potential of rising crime.

Thieves aren't motivated by revenge politics per se, at least not to anything sustainable towards any tangible social change [[sic). The 'goods' they bring back from their quarry will be re-stolen in the city! Thieves and criminals as I've said elsewhere on this site mainly seek an 'easy' mark...

I really don't want to be their next mark - again! I know I'll NOT BE SPARED because I'm not white, or bluehaired!

Originally Posted by Bham1982

This has nothing to do with conservative, or white, or WASP bluehairs.

You think liberals, or gays, or African Americans prefer declining property values or rising crime?

Southfield is overwhelmingly black and Democrat, and practically the entire civic discourse is based around stopping more Section 8 folks from moving in and bringing down their property values.

There's a proposed WalMart in Southfield that has folks raging mad and angry about low income folks coming in and shopping. These angry homeowners are almost all black. You can't really blame folks for wanting to protect their assets and their families.

**Gannon** · December-28-12, 08:35 AM

I can vouch for the friendly professionalism of the GPP police officers, but we warn everyone who visits to drive twenty-NINE on Mack Avenue coming and going to our place.

I've seen some curious things in almost three years here. They seem to be equal-opportunity with their curiosity over pedestrians and cyclists, but I've never seen anyone of blander pigmentation getting tickets while driving.

Then again, when Detroit has their stings across the bridge by the car plant and on Vernor...they seem to balance the scales of justice a bit. [[still cannot quite seem to figure why the city doesn't do this on a regular basis...)

Cheers

**Danny** · December-28-12, 11:52 AM

For over 45 years the borders of Detroit Grosse Pointe Park from Mack to Alter Rd. and further down to Jefferson Ave. has been racially and property demarcated. So far there is a wall diving Mack Ave. from Alter Rd. to Moross St. between Black ghettohoods of Morningside and East English Village and the back alley between the neighborhoods of Wayburn St and Alter Rd to E. Jefferson St. It's been there ever since.

Now putting up a real concrete demarcation wall separating a blighted East Side Detroit ghettohoods from the rich white residents of Grosse Pointe Park by closing Kercheval and Vernor Rd. will not solve violent crime problems. MDOT and Detroit will approve this racist proposal. There always going to be crime everywhere. We can't eliminate it, only control it. This wall will not happen, but it does protest and TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!

**expatriate** · May-01-13, 08:15 AM

Closing the street to automobile traffic doesn't necessarily mean closing it for bikes and pedestrians does it? Both of those watering holes could still easily be accessed.

**jtf1972** · May-01-13, 08:39 AM

I understand the benefits presumed that the closing Kercheval would create, but I have a feeling the bastards that come in to Detroit to dump their trash would just use another route.

**EASTSIDE CAT 67-83** · May-01-13, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.

PROFOUNDLY true and accurate statement Hermod, and I have "unfortunately" witnessed the conversion or enlightenment with more than a few freinds and family members, once you have been victimized you start to see things in a different light.

**Farnsworthfarms** · May-02-13, 10:50 AM

GP just got a dose of Santorum...even after pubic out cry, goes to show the mentality of the community.

I would like to think of it as we are closing Kercheval to keep the bigots out of Detroit...kind of how I wish all the people on here who dont live in Detroit would STFU.

**EastsideAl** · May-02-13, 01:04 PM

IMO this is a terrible mistake that will, as most street closings do, lower retail traffic and hurt and kill businesses. In this case, not only in the Park, but down through the Village and the Hill as well.

It certainly will send a powerful message to me that my business is no longer wanted, and I will act accordingly.

**Honky Tonk** · May-02-13, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

IMO this is a terrible mistake that will, as most street closings do, lower retail traffic and hurt and kill businesses. In this case, not only in the Park, but down through the Village and the Hill as well.

It certainly will send a powerful message to me that my business is no longer wanted, and I will act accordingly.

THIS street closing is killing off business, but closing off I-375 will INCREASE business? Interesting.