Electoral College next in the crosshairs?

[brizee]

No comment.

[Scottathew]

I think we should get rid of the Electoral College in all states. Presidents be picked by country-wide popular vote.

Does anyone see any negatives in that?

[poobert]

I called this a couple days ago in another thread. Can't win elections fair and square? Too chickenshit to stand up the psychopaths, misogynists, and racists that make up what's left of your party? Manipulate the system till you win!

Hell, why not just abolish the Constitution and declare martial law? Whatever it takes, right?

I'm not impressed. They still lost the popular vote pretty handily. This blatant politicking isn't going to get them any fans. Plutocracy, racism, and religious fanaticism only have so many proponents.

[antongast]

"With the frustration of the current system—and the fact that almost everyone would agree proportional or CD is more representative and maybe more fair than the current winner-take-all—Republicans have a strong, righteous argument," Anuzis said. "However, the motivation would be viewed as being purely political since it hasn’t been done before."

No, "the motivation would be viewed as being purely political" because you're only doing it in blue states. There are plenty of Democratic voters in, say, Atlanta or New Orleans or the Mississippi Delta who would probably like their presidential votes to count too. If this system is fairer than winner-take-all, why not implement it nationwide?

[JVB]

I think we should get rid of the Electoral College in all states. Presidents be picked by country-wide popular vote.

Does anyone see any negatives in that?

There are several issues with that approach. Population centers are heavily concentrated in a handful of states, leaving the vast majority of the country underrepresented in a popular vote. That may not seem like a problem to you if you live in one of those population centers, but you would view it differently if you didn't. In order to keep a cohesive federal system, all states need to feel like they have a say in the process or they will have no reason to remain part of that federal system.

I know it's popular on this board to call all conservatives racists, but that's not any more correct than calling all black people criminals, or all liberals homosexual, or any other vast number of stupid generalities I see posted on here and other places.

So a large part of this country is conservative and has different values than those in urban centers, but their beliefs need to be given weight or we could have another Civil War on our hands. I'm not speaking with hyperbole either, I could easily see a number of conservative states presenting quite a problem for the federal government if their populace feels that their states rights are being ignored.

Also remember that this country is not a Democracy - it is a Republic. A Republic means that each state is allowed to control its own laws for the most part, and that the federal government is only permitted to infringe on that in certain cases that violate federal law as called out by the Constitution. The Constitution is a contract between the federal government and the states, and if that contract is broken by either side then the contract is invalid.

Majority rule [[Democracy) can be a dangerous thing. Minorities should understand that better than anyone. There have to be provisions in law that protect minority viewpoints, and the electoral college is the system that was developed to protect states with a minority of the population.

Finally, the President is NOT your representative. Over the years we have begun to treat the office of the president as if he were King and that he represents us, but that's not what the office was meant for. The President is simply the head the Executive branch of Government and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Our actual representatives are in Congress - they are the ones that represent out interests, not the President. That's not his job. His job is to run the administrative business of the country and defend the country, not to represent the people of the country. We already have a branch of government that does that.

[antongast]

There are several issues with that approach. Population centers are heavily concentrated in a handful of states, leaving the vast majority of the country underrepresented in a popular vote. That may not seem like a problem to you if you live in one of those population centers, but you would view it differently if you didn't. In order to keep a cohesive federal system, all states need to feel like they have a say in the process or they will have no reason to remain part of that system.

As opposed to the system now where the whole election is decided by a handful of swing states? In this past election, your presidential vote was basically irrelevant unless you lived in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, or Colorado. There's a pretty big chunk of the country being "underrepresented" in this system too, no?

[Wesley Mouch]

...
Also remember that this country is not a Democracy - it is a Republic. ...

Fine post. Minority rights are important. The rush to popular vote for President needs to be very carefully thought through. I see flaws in the EC, but it does work to limit popular mood swings. In this, it is a better tool than campaign finance reform. It keeps more power in the political machine... and thus encourages the machine to respond to voters.

[JVB]

As opposed to the system now where the whole election is decided by a handful of swing states? In this past election, your presidential vote was basically irrelevant unless you lived in Ohio, Florida, Virginia, or Colorado. There's a pretty big chunk of the country being "underrepresented" in this system too, no?

Without the electoral college we wouldn't even have swing states, we would have swing cities. The electoral system isn't perfect, but it at least attempts to make the views of the most amount of people as relevant as possible, without being too unfair to the views of the majority.

Besides, like I said the President is not your representative. That's not his job.

[antongast]

Without the electoral college we wouldn't even have swing states, we would have swing cities.

No, we would have cities that vote Democratic and rural areas that vote Republican, just like we do now. In the electoral college system, the redness or blueness of most states is basically determined by whether they get more votes in cities or rural areas. Illinois is a blue state because it has Chicago in it. Indiana is a red state because it doesn't have Chicago in it. Ohio is a swing state because the rural Republican areas roughly balance out the urban Democratic areas.

If we abolished the electoral college, Republicans would win by appealing to rural voters nationwide, and Democrats would win by appealing to urban voters nationwide, and both parties would try to peel off as many moderate suburban voters as possible. Right now, Republicans in upstate New York or inland California and Democrats in Austin or St. Louis are completely ignored by presidential campaigns, because their home regions happen to be included in states whose mix of voters is tilted strongly against them, and elections get decided by idiosyncratic local issues in states that happen to have swingable mixes of voters.

[JVB]

No, we would have cities that vote Democratic and rural areas that vote Republican, just like we do now. In the electoral college system, the redness or blueness of most states is basically determined by whether they get more votes in cities or rural areas. Illinois is a blue state because it has Chicago in it. Indiana is a red state because it doesn't have Chicago in it. Ohio is a swing state because the rural Republican areas roughly balance out the urban Democratic areas.

If we abolished the electoral college, Republicans would win by appealing to rural voters nationwide, and Democrats would win by appealing to urban voters nationwide, and both parties would try to peel off as many moderate suburban voters as possible. Right now, Republicans in upstate New York or inland California and Democrats in Austin or St. Louis are completely ignored by presidential campaigns, because their home regions happen to be included in states whose mix of voters is tilted strongly against them, and elections get decided by idiosyncratic local issues in states that happen to have swingable mixes of voters.

I think you're missing the point of a Presidential election. The President does not represent you, his job is to militarily protect the states and administer the federal government in relation to the states of the union. He answers to the states, not the people. The states answer to their people and act accordingly. You also have a representative voice in Congress. That is not the job of the President.

[Scottathew]

I think you're missing the point of a Presidential election. The President does not represent you, his job is to militarily protect the states and administer the federal government in relation to the states of the union. He answers to the states, not the people. The states answer to their people and act accordingly. You also have a representative voice in Congress. That is not the job of the President.

The President does represent you.

Imagine if you had a huge pro-war, barely literate idiot in the White House. He might accidentally go to war with countries such as, let's say, Iraq, and kill 200,000 innocent Iraqi civilians.

Now imagine you have a much less pro-war president that brings troops home, avoids wars, and promotes diplomacy.

A president most certainly represents the people. S\He also appoints judges and justices and has the power to veto leglistation.

[JVB]

The President does represent you.

Imagine if you had a huge pro-war, barely literate idiot in the White House. He might accidentally go to war with countries such as, let's say, Iraq, and kill 200,000 innocent Iraqi civilians.

Now imagine you have a much less pro-war president that brings troops home, avoids wars, and promotes diplomacy.

I don't know if that was meant as a comparison between Bush and Obama, but if it was it was highly flawed since they are both clearly pro-war and Obama has even begun to assassinate US citizens without due process using drones [[Al-Awlaki for instance).

But if your point was simply that the election of a President affects us then yes you are correct. But it is not his job to represent us.

A president most certainly represents the people. S\He also appoints judges and justices and has the power to veto leglistation.

That is not representing the people, it is in fact the exact opposite.

The whole point of a veto is to undo the will of the people since the bills were voted on by our direct representatives in Congress. That is also why the Constitution gives Congress [[ie the People's Representatives) the ability to override his veto.

And that is also why he can appoint judges, but Congress [[The People's actual representatives) has to approve them or they don't get on the bench and they can also impeach them if they see fit.

[DetroitPlanner]

Can someone move this to non-Detroit?

[brizee]

Can someone move this to non-Detroit?

A topic about a measure specifically designed to lessen Detroit's voting power?

[firstandten]

We need to remember that this EC works both ways. People were upset and wanted to do away [[Dems mostly) with the EC when Gore lost and he actually won the popular vote so unlike Mitt he actually had a beef. Look the Obama people ran a brilliant campaign. They targeted the swing states down to the county. The Repubs are looking for quick fix solutions so they don't have to address systemic problems within their party and platform.

[Gistok]

But if your point was simply that the election of a President affects us then yes you are correct. But it is not his job to represent us.

That is not representing the people, it is in fact the exact opposite.

The whole point of a veto is to undo the will of the people since the bills were voted on by our direct representatives in Congress. That is also why the Constitution gives Congress [[ie the People's Representatives) the ability to override his veto.

And that is also why he can appoint judges, but Congress [[The People's actual representatives) has to approve them or they don't get on the bench and they can also impeach them if they see fit.

Every one of us who was educated in Michigan was required to take a Civics or Government class in High School.... so why are you preaching to the choir about things we already know?

[Papasito]

I think we should get rid of the Electoral College in all states. Presidents be picked by country-wide popular vote.

I agree 100%. If the people are supposed to elect our leaders, they should eliminate this Electoral College garbage.

[JVB]

Every one of us who was educated in Michigan was required to take a Civics or Government class in High School.... so why are you preaching to the choir about things we already know?

You may be part of the choir, but if you read the thread you'll see not everyone was paying attention in class.

[Gistok]

You may be part of the choir, but if you read the thread you'll see not everyone was paying attention in class.

That's true... but apparently you weren't paying attention to History Class when the Civil War happened.... apparently some states felt that the Constitutional contract was broken then... bu as you may or may not know Secession of states is not really a political possibility in the USA.

And as modern Geography and Political Science classes would tell us... with the influx of democratic leaning southwest, Texas and Floriday, a plurality of people are less and less Republican. And in those red states [[especially not the mountain or upper great plains states)... secession is hardly a topic of conversation. That would leave the bible belt... and if 1/3 of those are African Americans... they trust the Federal Government to protect them much more than the "Starts and Bars" flying over the statehouses to do so.

So besides Hannity, Beck and Limbaugh and their minions... "it ain't gonna happen".... except of course if you get your dose of "truth" from Fox News...

And as far as you hair splitting "the president doesn't represent us" argument... who was it that was there REPRESENTING all of America in Connecticut this week as the nation was mourning the loss of so many innocents... certainly not the people who REPRESENT you... but OUR president....

[leapfrog]

There are several issues with that approach. Population centers are heavily concentrated in a handful of states, leaving the vast majority of the country underrepresented in a popular vote. That may not seem like a problem to you if you live in one of those population centers, but you would view it differently if you didn't. In order to keep a cohesive federal system, all states need to feel like they have a say in the process or they will have no reason to remain part of that federal system.

I know it's popular on this board to call all conservatives racists, but that's not any more correct than calling all black people criminals, or all liberals homosexual, or any other vast number of stupid generalities I see posted on here and other places.

So a large part of this country is conservative and has different values than those in urban centers, but their beliefs need to be given weight or we could have another Civil War on our hands. I'm not speaking with hyperbole either, I could easily see a number of conservative states presenting quite a problem for the federal government if their populace feels that their states rights are being ignored.

Also remember that this country is not a Democracy - it is a Republic. A Republic means that each state is allowed to control its own laws for the most part, and that the federal government is only permitted to infringe on that in certain cases that violate federal law as called out by the Constitution. The Constitution is a contract between the federal government and the states, and if that contract is broken by either side then the contract is invalid.

Majority rule [[Democracy) can be a dangerous thing. Minorities should understand that better than anyone. There have to be provisions in law that protect minority viewpoints, and the electoral college is the system that was developed to protect states with a minority of the population.

Finally, the President is NOT your representative. Over the years we have begun to treat the office of the president as if he were King and that he represents us, but that's not what the office was meant for. The President is simply the head the Executive branch of Government and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Our actual representatives are in Congress - they are the ones that represent out interests, not the President. That's not his job. His job is to run the administrative business of the country and defend the country, not to represent the people of the country. We already have a branch of government that does that.

Not only is it popular, but its been my experience that its true. EVERY CONSERVATIVE I have known or know does display rascist behavior to some degree. There is a reason why the GOP is so popular with those sorts.

And your comments about abother civil war are just hyperbole. Its only conservatives who piss and moan about leaving the Union when things dont go there way - please please please let them try.

[JVB]

Not only is it popular, but its been my experience that its true. EVERY CONSERVATIVE I have known or know does display rascist behavior to some degree. There is a reason why the GOP is so popular with those sorts.

I'm not sure where to start with such an idiotic comment. Maybe you should start by researching some notable black conservatives then tell us all how racist they are. Based on your comment, I'll assume you're not bright enough to do the research yourself so here's a few to get you started:
Politicians

• Ken Blackwell, former Mayor of Cincinnati, former Secretary of State of Ohio, former Ohio gubernatorial candidate
• Neal E. Boyd, Republican candidate for the Missouri House of Representatives and 2008 Winner of America's Got Talent
• Keith Butler, minister, former Detroit councilman, former candidate for U.S. Senate from Michigan
• Jennifer Carroll, Lieutenant Governor of Florida
• Randy Daniels, former Secretary of State of New York
• Lurita Doan, first female Administrator of the United States General Services Administration
• Rubén Díaz, Sr., Bronx preacher and Democratic New York State Senate member; considered a strong social conservative but a fiscal liberal
• Michel Faulkner, Pastor, former New York Jets football player, and 2010 New York 15th District Congressional candidate
• Ezola B. Foster, 2000 Vice Presidential nominee of the Reform Party.
• Ryan Frazier, Aurora City Councilman, candidate for United States Senate elections in Colorado, 2010
• Deborah Honeycutt, former candidate for the U.S. House
• Niger Innis, director of Congress of Racial Equality [[CORE)
• Roy Innis, Chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality [[CORE)
• Alphonso Jackson, former United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
• Steven Mullins, Commissioner of Planning and Zoning, West Haven, Connecticut. Republican nominee for State Comptroller in 2002.
• Rod Paige, former United States Secretary of Education
• Sherman Parker, Republican in Missouri House of Representatives, died 2008.
• Michael Powell, former Federal Communications Commission chairman
• Condoleezza Rice, former United States Secretary of State, former National Security Advisor
• Winsome Sears, former member of Virginia House of Delegates, former candidate for U.S. House
• Michael Steele, Former Chairman of the Republican Party.
• Thomas Stith, town councilman of Durham, NC, former candidate for Lt. Gov. of NC
• Michael L. Williams, Chairman of the Texas Railroad Commission, and U.S. Senate candidate.
• Eric Wallace [[entrepreneur), Former Candidate for United States Senate elections in Illinois, 2010 and Co-chairman of Cook County Republican Party

United States judges

• Janice Rogers Brown, U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit
• Wallace Jefferson, chief justice of the Texas Supreme Court
• Clarence Thomas, associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, former Equal Employment Opportunity Commission chairman
• Dale Wainwright, Associate Justice of the Texas Supreme Court

Talk show hosts

• Herman Cain, newspaper columnist, businessman, presidential candidate, and radio talk-show host from Georgia
• Larry Elder, author of 10 Things You Can't Say in America, radio show host
• James Golden, producer for The Rush Limbaugh Show [[under the alias "Bo Snerdley") and former talk show co-host from New York City
• Alan Keyes, radio host, State Department official, public office candidate, author
• Lenny McAllister, author of Diary of a Mad Black PYC [[Proud Young Conservative), columnist, TV personality, and radio talk-show host from WVON-AM Chicago
• Angela McGlowan, Republican political analyst for Fox News Network, and 2010 candidate for Congress in Mississippi's 1st congressional district
• Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson, president of the Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny, television and radio host
• Armstrong Williams, author of Beyond Blame, TV host of On Point

[[to be cont...)

[JVB]

Columnists

• Stephen L. Carter, Christianity Today columnist, author of The Culture of Disbelief
• Ken Hamblin, Denver Post columnist, former talk show host
• Deroy Murdock, National Review columnist
• Sophia A. Nelson, columnist, blogger, commentator, GOP political strategist, chair of PoliticalIntersection.com and politicalintersection.blogspot.com
• Star Parker, president of the Coalition on Urban Renewal and Education, columnist, author, California congressional candidate
• Thomas Sowell, Hoover Institute fellow, economist, author of Basic Economics
• Walter E. Williams, economist, professor, columnist, author of More Liberty Means Less Government

Athletes and entertainers

• Cowboy Troy, country rapper
• Joseph C. Phillips, played Martin Kendall on The Cosby Show, political writer and commentator.
• Karl Malone, former basketball player
• James Brown, musician. Openly endorsed Richard Nixon in the 1968 and 1972 presidential elections and named Strom Thurmond as one of his heroes during a 2003 interview with Rolling Stone.
• Ray Charles, musician.
• 50 Cent, rapper. Supported George W. Bush in 2005, but switched to the Democratic Party in support of Hillary Clinton in 2008

• Eazy E, rapper. Normally apathetic towards politics, but voiced his support for George H.W. Bush after being invited to a White House dinner in 1991.
• Lynn Swann, football player, Pennsylvania gubernatorial candidate
• Peter Boulware, football player, Florida House of Representatives candidate
• Sheryl Underwood, comedienne
• Dwayne Johnson, "The Rock", actor and former professional wrestler.
• Wilt Chamberlain, former basketball player, one of few African American figures to publicly endorse former president Richard Nixon
• Thurman Thomas, former Buffalo Bills running back
• David Tyree, football player, outspoken opponent of same-sex marriage

Others

• Alveda King, niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, senior fellow at the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution, and former member of Georgia House of Representatives
• Michelle Bernard, President and CEO of the Independent Women's Forum and prominent media figure

• Amy Holmes, CNN political contributor and formerly worked for Bill Frist
• Ward Connerly, University of California regent, activist and businessman
• Stanley Crouch, author of In Defence of Taboos
• Samuel B. Fuller, 20th century entrepreneur
• Robert A. George, journalist, pundit and blogger
• Erika Harold, attorney; former Miss America and conservative GOP activist
• Zora Neale Hurston, novelist
• T.D Jakes, televangelist
• Don King, boxing promoter
• Michael King, National Advisory Board Member of Project 21, former radio talk show host
• John McWhorter, author of Losing the Race and Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute
• James Meredith, former civil rights activist
• Eric Motley, former State Department official, now vice-president of the Aspen Institute
• Gerald A. Reynolds, president of the Center for New Black Leadership, member of Project 21
• Vernon Robinson, Air Force intelligence officer, business professor
• George Schuyler, journalist, novelist
• Shelby Steele, Hoover Institute fellow
• Lee Walker, president of the New Coalition for Economic and Social Change, Heartland Institute Fellow
• C.L. Bryant, Baptist minister and former NAACP president
• E.W. Jackson, American bishop

As offensive [[and obviously wrong) as it is to call all conservatives racist, I guess its OK for me to now retort by calling all liberals retarded. Well, not all liberals, but any liberals that agree with your offensive statement are obviously retarded.

Once you get done calling all of the notable black conservatives I posted above "Uncle Tom's", head on over to the National Black Republicans site and educate yourself about them. Not all Republicans are conservative of course, but you get the idea. You're an idiot.

[brizee]

I see the Snyder is back on his false neutrality platform again.

The sheeps clothes are off homie. The people of this state already see you for what you are, please stop playing humble nice guy moderate role.

Fucking ..........

[rb336]

JVB - the mere fact that you can essentially list "prominent black republicans" in a short space does more to support the argument than dispel it, especially when you include so many that are based on off-hand comments

[brizee]

So this nonsense is already starting in Virginia.

The remaining votes would go to the candidate winning the most districts NOT the most votes..

Virginia has 11 districts and 13 electoral votes. Under this proposed system Obama, who won 51% percent of Virginias vote in 2012, would recieve only 4 of 13 of it's electoral votes.

How these people aren't scared of damage to life or limb is beyond me.

Similar measures are already being cooked up in Pennsylvania and here in Michigan. And they've got their eyes on Wisconsin.

They need to bring back the guillotine, because this is treasonous.

If this was happening in an African, or Latin American, or a Pacific island nation it would be called out rightly for the evil that it is.