Shops versus Shoppes

**Hermod** · December-12-12, 11:06 AM

Shops versus Shoppes

I was up visiting family in the Detroit metro area earlier in December. While I stayed with my sister in beautiful downtown Gingellville, I did spend some time in various Oakland County locales.

I went to Rochester to visit my family gravesites and after that strolled around downtown Rochester. Almost all the storefronts were full and there were a lot of people on the sidewalk and therefore a pretty “vibrant” downtown. I also stopped in Kruse and Muers for some happy hour libations and chatted with the locals. There was something about Rochester that didn’t feel right and I just couldn’t put my finger on it.

Then on another day, I dropped down to old Birmingham to have lunch with my son who works for a firm there on Old Woodward. I got there early and walked the length of Old Woodward and looked at the stores. Most were rented out and active. There were a lot of people walking along the streets and you could say the downtown Birmingham was “virbant” as was Rochester. Still, something just didn’t feel quite right and I couldn’t nail it down.

I went to Ferndale to visit a couple of second hand bookstores there on Woodward. I also strolled along Woodward. Most stores were occupied. People were walking on the street. Ferndale was “vibrant”.

My thoughts then turned to noted “vibrant” downtowns in Florida like Las Olas in Ft Lauderdale and Atlantic Ave in Delray Beach and a light came on. All of these areas that are so “vibrant” contain “ye olde shoppes” rather than “shops”. If you need something, you go to a mall, a strip mall, or a big box store which are all “shops”. If you want something exotic or are just browsing for gewgaws, you go to a ‘vibrant” downtown full of shoppes.

In the 1950s, Rochester and Birmingham had shops. All the shops are outside of town now and Rochester and Birmingham are full of shoppes.

Comment??

**rb336** · December-12-12, 12:35 PM

just a mindless affectation

**Bham1982** · December-12-12, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

In the 1950s, Rochester and Birmingham had shops. All the shops are outside of town now and Rochester and Birmingham are full of shoppes.
Comment??

In the 1950's, Rochester was the absolute sticks, and now it's fully [[sub)urbanized and rather affluent, so the character of retail has changed.

Birmingham was already suburbia in the 50's, but it was a more down-to-earth community with "regular folks". There was always an undercurrent of more quiet, WASPy wealth, but it didn't get snobby and affected until maybe 15-20 years ago.

There isn't much shopping in either community. People go to the malls and big box for that sort of stuff. Birmingham has some high-end stuff on Maple Road, but not like before. There does seem to be a bit of a recent revival, though, which could be [[good) economy related.

**Bham1982** · December-12-12, 01:00 PM

And, yeah, unless you're in Manhattan, or a few other places, downtowns in the U.S. tend to not sell much useful stuff.

In Birmingham, for example, there's a high end olive oil shop, a toy store selling mostly purple things, a "vintage" tennis shoe emporium, and [[no joke) a place selling only Venezuelan-couture party dresses.

But, sorry, no place to buy a regular pair of jeans.

Most of these places seem to be opened by the spouses of wealthy persons. Lots of "husband's a surgeon and I'm bored all day" type businesses.

**Gistok** · December-12-12, 02:03 PM

Gee... makes even the "Scotch Tape Boutique" on the older Saturday Night Live skits seem exotic...

And Rochester hasn't been the same since Mitzelfeld's closed...

**DetroitPlanner** · December-12-12, 02:14 PM

You're right. The new big box and chain stores avoid downtowns like the plague. They were great locations in the past for chains like Dime Stores, small specialty department stores and the like. However the big boxes sucked up nearly all of that business. At the same time downtowns did not want big boxes coming in, as they would have wanted to mow down the old buildings, build big parking lots, and basically ruin the character of the community. At least two historic downtowns in the region did this. The two I am picturing are Fenton and St. Clair. Both did this early [[late 1960's) and by 1980 they were dead anyway, and ugly to boot! Fenton has 'restored' or maybe 'reshopped' itself and is a much better environment now than it was 20 years ago.

**Hermod** · December-12-12, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

In the 1950's, Rochester was the absolute sticks, and now it's fully [[sub)urbanized and rather affluent, so the character of retail has changed.

Not exactly the "sticks"'.

In 1955, along Main St from the Clinton River Bridge to the top of "North Hill", Rochester had:

Supermarkets: A&P, Kroger, and Davey's plus two smaller stores, Masons and Aylwards.

Hardware Stores: Burrs and Cases plus the Dillman and Upton lumber yard.

Car Dealers: Pontiac/Oldmobile/GMC, Ford, Dodge, Studebaker, Chrysler/Plymouth.

Variety Stores: D&C and Ben Franklin

Department Store: Mitzlefield-Eggleston

**Jimaz** · December-12-12, 03:40 PM

I've long wondered about the use of the word "shoppes" here. Could it have come from the French influence? I only ask because I don't know.

I never noticed any "shoppes" in Phoenix. They seem to be more of a suck-it-up, tough-it-out, we-don't-want-any-fancy-frills culture. That's kind of sad although I myself instinctively avoid "shoppes" too.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-12-12, 03:50 PM

Theatre Bizzare should buy the fairgrounds and turn it into an amusement park.

**Jason** · December-12-12, 07:14 PM

imo those "downtowns" aren't really functioning downtowns, they're disneyland lifestyle centers.

There are versions of these for old people and for young people.

Royal Oak is one for young people, and there are lots of bars restaurants and stuff for younger people, and some apartments for younger people. It's there for young people who want an urban lifestyle, but really all RO is is a few blocks of that kind of stuff with a few apartment buildings mixed in. It's not a functioning downtown. There aren't many offices and there isn't really much "business" being conducted there. It's just a few blocks of entertainment in the shape of a hip trendy urban downtown.

Then there's places like downtown Plymouth, which is for older people. It's "quaint" and "charming" and "traditional" and "family oriented". When you watch a hallmark movie that takes place in the 1950s, that's what Plymouth is going for.

Both of these aren't places that you actually live or do business, they're places that you visit on the weekend. You drive in your car and park either on a surface lot or garage and then you walk a short distance to your destination. They're lifestyle centers.

The real downtown of Oakland County is Big Beaver. There are tons of offices where business and big decisions are made, there's a lot more shopping, a wider range of shopping, and there's way more housing. It doesn't have the picturesque ye olde aesthetic of those other "downtowns" but it has all of the functionality that you'd expect from a real downtown. Southfield is another downtown. It has a lot of office and housing, plus a university and a news station. These places lack an urban form though, so even they aren't really downtowns.

Downtown Detroit is a true downtown. It has a bunch of office, entertainment, government, event hosting, hospitals, universities, housing. It has a concentration of genuine activity.

**Hermod** · December-12-12, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

Downtown Detroit is a true downtown. It has a bunch of office, entertainment, government, event hosting, hospitals, universities, housing. It has a concentration of genuine activity.

Downtowns have shopping for food, clothing, and other necessities of life. Detroit quit being a "true downtown" many years ago.

**Bham1982** · December-12-12, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

Downtown Detroit is a true downtown. It has a bunch of office, entertainment, government, event hosting, hospitals, universities, housing. It has a concentration of genuine activity.

I kinda see what you're saying re. judging downtowns by their day-to-day utility vs. the "Disney" feel you get in a place like Plymouth, but Detroit is in the same general boat.

For the vast majority of the region, downtown plays no role in their lives except as an leisure venue, whether casinos, sports, bars, theater, or whatever.

They don't know anyone who works there, there hasn't been any shopping in two generations [[basic or niche), and there are very few nearby residential neighborhoods with any kind of market value.

Really, the "Main Streets" of the region are Hall Road, Big Beaver, Orchard Lake, Ford Road, and Novi Road. Downtown is the symbolic center, and the suburban downtowns each have their specific niche [[Plymouth and Northville for Old Republicans, Royal Oak for 20-somethings, Birmingham for wanna be cosmopolitans, Ferndale for pseudo hipsters).

**Hermod** · December-12-12, 08:22 PM

There used to be a large number of "downtowns" in the region as well as numerous "satellite downtowns" in Detroit itself.

**stasu1213** · December-13-12, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jason

imo those "downtowns" aren't really functioning downtowns, they're disneyland lifestyle centers.

There are versions of these for old people and for young people.

Royal Oak is one for young people, and there are lots of bars restaurants and stuff for younger people, and some apartments for younger people. It's there for young people who want an urban lifestyle, but really all RO is is a few blocks of that kind of stuff with a few apartment buildings mixed in. It's not a functioning downtown. There aren't many offices and there isn't really much "business" being conducted there. It's just a few blocks of entertainment in the shape of a hip trendy urban downtown.

Then there's places like downtown Plymouth, which is for older people. It's "quaint" and "charming" and "traditional" and "family oriented". When you watch a hallmark movie that takes place in the 1950s, that's what Plymouth is going for.

Both of these aren't places that you actually live or do business, they're places that you visit on the weekend. You drive in your car and park either on a surface lot or garage and then you walk a short distance to your destination. They're lifestyle centers.

The real downtown of Oakland County is Big Beaver. There are tons of offices where business and big decisions are made, there's a lot more shopping, a wider range of shopping, and there's way more housing. It doesn't have the picturesque ye olde aesthetic of those other "downtowns" but it has all of the functionality that you'd expect from a real downtown. Southfield is another downtown. It has a lot of office and housing, plus a university and a news station. These places lack an urban form though, so even they aren't really downtowns.

Downtown Detroit is a true downtown. It has a bunch of office, entertainment, government, event hosting, hospitals, universities, housing. It has a concentration of genuine activity.

Downtown detroit is a true downtown to those who love going to bars, clubs. The hospitals are in the midtown area which has the potential to have the basic retail needed for us older folks who don't shop at trendy shops and boutiques. Downtown is lacking family oriented venues and retail. A true downtown have more than one movie theatre, have more retail stores that cater to the needs of different shoppers, and more police and security personel to make shoppers and other downtowners feel safe. Individual shops such as MooseJaw, Structure, Ann Taylor's Loft, Bed Bath and Beyond, Champs, and others would make a perfect downtown instead of a big box store

**Hermod** · December-13-12, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Downtown detroit is a true downtown to those who love going to bars, clubs. The hospitals are in the midtown area which has the potential to have the basic retail needed for us older folks who don't shop at trendy shops and boutiques. Downtown is lacking family oriented venues and retail. A true downtown have more than one movie theatre, have more retail stores that cater to the needs of different shoppers, and more police and security personel to make shoppers and other downtowners feel safe. Individual shops such as MooseJaw, Structure, Ann Taylor's Loft, Bed Bath and Beyond, Champs, and others would make a perfect downtown instead of a big box store

A mid-rise Macy's across the street from a mid-rise Dillard's would go a long way toward making a downtown [[don't hold your breath).

BTW: Bed, Bath, and Beyond is a big box/category killer store.

**stasu1213** · December-13-12, 09:51 AM

I stand corrected. Maybe not a Bed Bath and Beyond but a good linen store, a hardware store, and a store that sell household goods. Those stores lined side by side would create the walkabilty the other downtown have

**Honky Tonk** · December-13-12, 10:22 AM

"a hardware store,"

Try Detroit Hardware Co. http://www.detroithardwareco.com/ They're conveniently located in the 'Hood, have been around for years, and have whatever it is you need. Instead of waiting for it to happen, make it happen.

**nain rouge** · December-13-12, 10:31 AM

I can see, good sir, that you haven't been to the east side! In downtown St. Clair Shores, why you can buy shoes, drink coffee, do your dry cleaning, ship goods, buy international fabrics, buy tools, plan a party, or even get an engagement ring for your significant other!

And let us not forget downtown Grosse Pointe Farms, home to a variety of lending and investment agencies, a jazz club, a drug store, and fine dining, where the elite of Grosse Pointe can conduct business over lobster and caviar!

Dare I mention Mt. Clemens, THE downtown of Macomb County? It's where a working class man can get cheap drinks under the beneficence of tall buildings! You can buy old records from some guy that plays in the local cult band The Amino Acids, check out the drug store, or eat a salmon burger or a fried peanut butter and jelly sandwich at Seeburger's!

Culture. Life. Vitality. Metro Detroit is positively bursting at the seams with such qualities, a veritably booming metropolis of success and confluence! Come to the east side and you will see the error of your ways.

**Baselinepunk** · December-13-12, 10:32 AM

"Vibrant" = a catch-all; overused branding term used by DDAs in marketing when they run out of ways to actually explain why and how their downtown is unique and different than the other "vibrant" downtown ...

**noise** · December-13-12, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

And, yeah, unless you're in Manhattan, or a few other places, downtowns in the U.S. tend to not sell much useful stuff.

In Birmingham, for example, there's a high end olive oil shop, a toy store selling mostly purple things, a "vintage" tennis shoe emporium, and [[no joke) a place selling only Venezuelan-couture party dresses.

But, sorry, no place to buy a regular pair of jeans.

Most of these places seem to be opened by the spouses of wealthy persons. Lots of "husband's a surgeon and I'm bored all day" type businesses.

What do you mean by "regular pair of jeans"? There are at least a couple of men's clothing stores in downtown Birmingham. They may not sell Kohl's line of Levi's, but they certainly sell denim.

Having read the rest of the thread, though, I can see where you're coming from.

**Bham1982** · December-13-12, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by noise

What do you mean by "regular pair of jeans"? There are at least a couple of men's clothing stores in downtown Birmingham. They may not sell Kohl's line of Levi's, but they certainly sell denim.

Really? Where?

I can't think of any place to buy "normal" [[ie non-designer, under $200) jeans in Birmingham. There are two remaining traditional men's stores downtown, but they're both formalwear stores, and one is closing.

Maybe the Varsity Shop [[or is it Shoppe?) has jeans? I don't think so, though.

There used to be more "normal" stores. Gap, Ann Taylor Loft, and way back, stores like Jacobsons and Crowleys.

**noise** · December-13-12, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Really? Where?

I can't think of any place to buy "normal" [[ie non-designer, under $200) jeans in Birmingham. There are two remaining traditional men's stores downtown, but they're both formalwear stores, and one is closing.

Maybe the Varsity Shop [[or is it Shoppe?) has jeans? I don't think so, though.

That's why I asked what you meant. I tend to buy Levi's selvedge which are typically in the $100+ range, so I usually have to go to these types of stores to buy them. I can't get my "normal" jeans in a "normal" store, unfortunately. Not even at the Levi's stores, which is a bummer.

I get where you're coming from.

**stasu1213** · December-13-12, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by noise

That's why I asked what you meant. I tend to buy Levi's selvedge which are typically in the $100+ range, so I usually have to go to these types of stores to buy them. I can't get my "normal" jeans in a "normal" store, unfortunately. Not even at the Levi's stores, which is a bummer.

I get where you're coming from.

Where in Detroit where I could get a basic pair of blue jeans? Please dont mention Cheap Charlies for he has used jeans or jeans with very shallow pockets. Where in Detroit could one buy a pair of Levis, Lees, or any other non-design basic pair of jeans

**stasu1213** · December-13-12, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

"a hardware store,"

Try Detroit Hardware Co. http://www.detroithardwareco.com/ They're conveniently located in the 'Hood, have been around for years, and have whatever it is you need. Instead of waiting for it to happen, make it happen.

Everyone doesn't have the patience to open or run a business. I know that I am one of them. I am a consumer who give a request for what I would like to see in the city. Everyone on this site had made suggestions and demands on what they want to see downtown and the other parts of the city. Are you going to tell them to make it happen also?

**Hermod** · December-13-12, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Everyone doesn't have the patience to open or run a business. I know that I am one of them. I am a consumer who give a request for what I would like to see in the city. Everyone on this site had made suggestions and demands on what they want to see downtown and the other parts of the city. Are you going to tell them to make it happen also?

Stasu, these guys are all playing SimCity where they can just have instant gratification for their "wants" That is one of the main things that i remember from Econ 101-102 is that "wants" don't equal "demands" as far as economics is concerned. The prof said that for "wants" to equal "demands" they must be accompanied by money.