Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[brizee]

http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/get_..._meetings.aspx

[brizee]

Rereading the bills.

Detroit gets two voting members on the board.

-1 picked by the county executive
-1 picked by the mayor

They can't currently be a politician or employee of the city/county/state or a public transportation agency.

They have to live in the city.

I have no idea who the candidate would be.

[Detroitnerd]

The main line from Detroit to Pontiac didn't veer off on to Royal Oak Main Street, but it did veer off Woodward. The line left Woodward onto Washington Ave in Royal Oak and continued north on Washington to the DUR station at Washington Ave and 4th Street. Leaving the station, the line curved west on to 11 Mile Road to Woodward where it curved north on Woodward to Pontiac.

It's really hard to tell that from the resolution of the map I'm working with here:



Anyway, the point remains the same, transit moves people. I doubt Royal Oak was considered a glitzy entertainment attraction one hundred years ago. And, yes, the density and small blocks of Royal Oak are directly traceable to the fact that they were served by transit.

[Hermod]

It's really hard to tell that from the resolution of the map I'm working with here:



Anyway, the point remains the same, transit moves people. I doubt Royal Oak was considered a glitzy entertainment attraction one hundred years ago. And, yes, the density and small blocks of Royal Oak are directly traceable to the fact that they were served by transit.

That is one of the Official Guide" type of map. It isn't to scale as you can notice how they flattened out Oakland and Macomb counties. There is a detailed map on p. 41 of "When Eastern Michigan Rode the Rails" by Schramm, Henning, and Andrews, Interurban Press No. 94, 1984.

I would agree that if I was laying out the line today, I would go straight up Woodward. The Royal Oak portion was built by a company that planned to terminate in Royal Oak and only later was connected to the line coming south from Pontiac toward Detroit. It was all absorbed into the Detroit United Railway.

[Detroitnerd]

Ha. I've met all three of those people, I think. Ken Schramm, Billy Henning and Richard Andrews, right? Richard has the largest collection of streetcar tickets I've ever seen. Just astounding. His collection is so fantastic I hope he has it deeded to a museum in his will.

[Hermod]

Ha. I've met all three of those people, I think. Ken Schramm, Billy Henning and Richard Andrews, right? Richard has the largest collection of streetcar tickets I've ever seen. Just astounding. His collection is so fantastic I hope he has it deeded to a museum in his will.

You have it. They wrote a book on the Detroit-Pontiac and Detroit-Flint lines. Schramm and Henning wrote a second volume on the Detroit-Port Huron line. All three of them collaborated on a third volume on the Detroit-Jackson line.

Schramm and Henning in company with a fourth fellow named Thomas Dworman wrote a two-volume history of the Detroit Streetcars.

Over time, I have been fortunate enough to have found and acquired all five volumes, two of which are autographed.

The five books are an expansion and elaboration of an earlier [[1959) spiral bound publication of the Central Electric Railfans Association [[CERA) entitled Electric Railways of Michigan.

There is also a book entitled "When Detroit Rode the Waves" about the St Clair and Detroit River Steamers by Michael m. Dixon [[my sisters helped "angel" the printing).

[professorscott]

Regarding the concern about interaction between BRT and the M1 Rail system, I am intimately familiar with both and can replace speculation with fact. The Woodward transit line, be it BRT or light rail or whatever it ends up being, will be a line that goes all the way to downtown Detroit. There has never been ANY notion of it ending at Grand Boulevard and forcing people to transfer to M1 Rail. This is so obviously ridiculous it has never been discussed.

M1 Rail will be more of a local system for the midtown-downtown traffic, so some riders might want to transfer from the longer Woodward line to M1 Rail to be able to get closer to some of the stations served by M1 but not the other. But people going to, say, the City-County building or WSU from the 'burbs will be able to ride the longer system directly to their station. You have my personal guarantee.

Now, so far as mode choice goes, one of the inputs into the process is that the RTA, as configured, can choose to implement a BRT line much more easily than a light rail line. That doesn't force a decision, but it certainly makes one path smoother than the other. As to the discussion about "low end" BRT vs. "true" BRT, that is just up to how much money they can get the voters to approve. Which is THE first step; nothing is done before that.

With regard to changes to the original triangle, which wouldn't bother me [[and it was me who drew it), that's very likely to happen. Those of you familiar with the FTA process answer this one for me: could you submit an M59 BRT plan to the FTA with a straight face? Having said that, there will be at least three lines planned, and the first two will be Woodward and Gratiot [[almost certainly in that order) and then, just speculating now, something that provides a direct connection to DTW.

We are living in interesting times! It will be fascinating to see who gets appointed to the first RTA board, who they choose for an initial GM, and how they decide to sell the idea of funding to the public.

[corktownyuppie]

We are living in interesting times! It will be fascinating to see who gets appointed to the first RTA board, who they choose for an initial GM, and how they decide to sell the idea of funding to the public.

We are living in interesting times indeed! Certainly, no one will win all the political battles. But for some major urban planning and municipal management issues, I feel like the crack in the dam has finally burst and things are finally moving forward.

[Dexlin]

Professor,

M-1 is going to get their shovels in the ground first, so there simply isn't any way that whatever mode happens along Woodward is going to be duplicated along the lower part of the corridor, especially if they [[the authority) were going to do rail. I'm honestly not sure what you heard. Whatever alternative they eventually choose along Woodward will either have to directly connect with M-1 rail, or it will beging and end at Grand and there will have to be a transfer. The regional authority isn't going build rail or a BRT south of Grand in addition to M-1.

The plan is that the regional authority will eventually have control [[either through outright ownership or operation/management) of M-1 rail, so that seems to speak to them eventually continuing rail north of Grand as opposed to BRT, but that'd be quite a few years off.

To put it more simply, M-1 rail was basically created to push the future authorities hand toward light rail/streetcar along much of the Woodward corridor. South of Grand, there is not going to be light rail or BRT built in addition to M-1 rail's streetcar line. By M-1's very existence they've already supplanted whatever else was or could have been planned for that three mile stretch.

[DetroitPlanner]

Dex, it won't be duplication if the longer system uses that as an opportunity to offer express service downtown from New Center.

Don't worry about it. Things are starting to make progress. Waiting for or demanding perfection is the enemy of progress. As Bill Murray said in "What about Bob?" Baby Steps!

[stasu1213]

Once Detroit get a Mayor and council that are pro transit instead of anti transit, due to those who funded their campaign, there will be an aggressive move toward building a transit system for Detroit and Southeastern Michigan

[Novine]

All this time, I thought it was Brooks and county interests outside of Detroit holding up transit improvements when it's really the Mayor and Council in Detroit who are the problem.

[Det_ard]

Well, since Oakland is on board and Ann Arbor is grumbling now some folks will have to find a "Brooks" of Washtenaw to rail against.

[Bham1982]

23 miles from downtown to Pontiac on the old DUR interurban. Figure 15 miles from Pontiac to 8-mile. Those 15 miles are probably the cheapest per-mile segment. Build those first which assures Oakland County buy-in.

There will never, ever, be light rail constructed in the City of Bloomfield Hills. You can take that to the bank.

They won't accept a bus stop or a sidwalk anywhere. I guarantee they would be openly hostile to even the suggestion of light rail intruding within their boundaries.

So unless there's some big bypass through West Bloomfield or Troy or something [[and I don't think they would be particularly receptive either), there will never be some sort of rail-based commuter transit extending to Pontiac.

[gameguy56]

There will never, ever, be light rail constructed in the City of Bloomfield Hills. You can take that to the bank.

They won't accept a bus stop or a sidwalk anywhere. I guarantee they would be openly hostile to even the suggestion of light rail intruding within their boundaries.

So unless there's some big bypass through West Bloomfield or Troy or something [[and I don't think they would be particularly receptive either), there will never be some sort of rail-based commuter transit extending to Pontiac.

Why is BH so pedistrian-hostile? Especially with Birmingham right next door?

[Detroitnerd]

Why is BH so pedistrian-hostile? Especially with Birmingham right next door?

Birmingham is much older, so it got developed like a normal 19th century city in a lot of ways.

The Bloomies seem much more an expression of high 20th century wealth, where if you can't afford a car, you are not needed nor welcome in this community.

Which is funny, because that wealth helped build one of the most enjoyable places to walk: Crankbrook. It's just that you have to drive there first.

[tkelly1986]

All this time, I thought it was Brooks and county interests outside of Detroit holding up transit improvements when it's really the Mayor and Council in Detroit who are the problem.

I'm not sure if this is meant to be sarcastic...but it is indeed the situation. The city has been the biggest obstacle. I cannot tell you how many people involved with the RTA, M1, State, the Fed ect…have said that the city is the problem due to incompetence, not returning phone calls, demanding the moon, but not wanting to pay for it, or reserving rooms for meetings. Honestly, the city is who dropped the ball here. It’s embarrassing that we still employ many of these clowns.

[Novine]

Yes, it was sarcastic. For all its shortcomings, Detroit actually has a transit system. Oakland County does not and what we do have in SMART is despite Brooks Patterson, not thanks to him.

[Eber Brock Ward]

There will never, ever, be light rail constructed in the City of Bloomfield Hills. You can take that to the bank.

They won't accept a bus stop or a sidwalk anywhere. I guarantee they would be openly hostile to even the suggestion of light rail intruding within their boundaries.

So unless there's some big bypass through West Bloomfield or Troy or something [[and I don't think they would be particularly receptive either), there will never be some sort of rail-based commuter transit extending to Pontiac.

While the RTA would have to "listen" to Bloomfield Hills for political purposes, it can essentially tell them to eff off. To wit, from Senate Bill 909:

Sec. 15. Local zoning or land use ordinances or regulations do
not apply to a public transportation system or a rolling rapid
transit system that is planned, acquired, owned, or operated by an
authority under this act.

[Dexlin]

Dex, it won't be duplication if the longer system uses that as an opportunity to offer express service downtown from New Center.

Don't worry about it. Things are starting to make progress. Waiting for or demanding perfection is the enemy of progress. As Bill Murray said in "What about Bob?" Baby Steps!

I was really having a brainfart when I wrote that, because I can, indeed, see a scenario in which there would be two modes used on the same part of the corridor. The streetcar would be the local service, and as you've pointed out, what would most likely be BRT would be an express service [[i.e. not stopping anywhere along the length of the corridor the streetcar will cover, or stopping very sparringly).

I guess what I was getting at is that there isn't going to be a streetcar and a light rail along this part of the corridor, but the Southeast Michigan Regional Transit Authority very well may run an express BRT along side the streetcar in the lower corridor.

[Flintoid]

House passed SB 912 and 967 last night which allow Bus Rapid Transit to operate in its own separate lane on major roads and allows the RTA to usurp local zoning laws. All 5 bills got passed!

[Detroitdave]

OK I'm trying to be clear on this ? once any rail lines comes into the city and hits Grand Blvd, will there be two lines? ,meaning "local" city line and a express line [[m1) only stopping at 3/4 stops until it ends downtown ?
It's not making sense to me? I'm sure this can't ,be Woodward it's that big down there . So I'm sure I'm reading this or not getting this

[tkelly1986]

M1 will be the "local" service, while the BRT will be the express. And yes, as it stands they will operate concurrently, unless folks push strongly for an integrated rail system.

[Detroitnerd]

COUNTY POLITICIAN: Well, boys, I've tried to hold them off as long as possible, but it looks like they're determined to build mass transit in the region.

CONCRETE COMPANY EXECUTIVE: That's horrible!

RUBBER COMPANY EXECUTIVE: Damn them!

AUTOMOTIVE EXECUTIVE: After all the money we spent to convince them otherwise!

COUNTY POLITICIAN: Now, boys ...

CONCRETE COMPANY EXECUTIVE: Are you telling me we're not going to be able to lay the same cheap concrete every few years because everybody will be riding trains?

RUBBER COMPANY EXECUTIVE: And what about my tire sales?

AUTOMOTIVE EXECUTIVE: We don't make any TRAINS! We make cars!

COUNTY POLITICIAN: Now, you boys calm down. I have talked with our buddies in Lansing and I think we've figured out a way to neutralize its impact on you fellers. First of all, there won't be any trains in the county!

EXECUTIVES: WHEW!

COUNTY POLITICIAN: What we're going to do is run a system of buses, which means we'll need to buy a bunch of the biggest buses your auto company makes. You'll have to put fancy paint jobs on them to make them look like trains, but that about it. Now, of course, we'll need lots and lots of your rubber company's tires. And the whole project will require lots of special concrete construction to berm them off from the rest of the road, lots of concrete stations, and -- the way you lay it -- fat repair contracts. [laughter]

AUTOMOTIVE EXECUTIVE: But, I still gotta say, I'm worried. What if they see the impact of safe reliable mass transit and decide to actually use the system?

COUNTY POLITICIAN: [laughs] All that's been figured out. First of all, this kind of bus system is loaded with goodies for you guys but really, it's still a loser cruiser. [laughter] Nobody will actually choose to ride this thing. It's expensive, but then again we needed a way to feed you this money from the RTA and that's what it does. Other than that, it's slow, bumpy and not really all that rapid.

RUBBER COMPANY EXECUTIVE: But if it DID work ... what then?

COUNTY POLITICIAN: Well, see, that's why we've placed it out on this road that transit riders will never use. Once people see all the money we spent on this loser system that nobody uses, it will set the cause of transit back another 20 years in this county. And that's good news for all of us!

[laughter, applause]

THE END

[Detroitdave]

BRAVO ! BRAVO ! and the region still suffers and loses people to other states and cities with mass transit , OH ??? huh ??
I'd like to see them try selling that in Chicago, NYC ,Boston, SF, Seattle , Philly, Portland ect