Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[brizee]

So transportation has been regionalized.

Just curious how things will shake out now.

The board actually forms for the RTA in March. Hopefully no obstructionists are nominated. Ann Arbor Looks like it could be a problem.

It starts actually funding DDOT and SMART next October.

Some lingering questions about pending projects though.

When does M-1 actually start construction? Do they have to go through another Environmental Impact Survey?

When does the superbus get underway? Does this also have to go through an Impact Study? If so when can that get started?

What about SEMCOG's supposed plan? Snyder bus stops in Birmingham. SEMCOG has been looking at alternatives that go all the way to Pontiac and included light rail. Where does that fit in?

M-1 has been stated to be the beginning of any further rail expansion. The leislation spells out that any "rail" projects need a unanimmus vote from the executives, not just a majority. How would any no votes be taken care of? Would it be a matter of convincing? Does a certain amount of time between votes need to happen?

When a project is put to a vote is it majority or by county? Like a Woodward Line would be Oakland and Wayne, Michigan or Grand River mostly Wayne, Gratiot Wayne and Macomb. Does it need to win support of both counties just between both counties?

The bills spell out pretty specifically that the new authority doesn't have to take care of any labor obligations of either system. Does that mean any new DDOT bus drivers still come out of the city general fund? Will there eventually be no more DDOT and SMART? Can communities still opt out of SMART?

I really do hope for the best.

http://www.detroittransit.org/index.php

http://www.facebook.com/notes/suppor...80243735398958

http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/get_..._meetings.aspx

[Honky Tonk]

Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

Hopefully not here....

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/video?cl...autoStart=true

[Novine]

They can start out by ditching Snyder's BRT plan. There's nothing in the legislation that mandates BRT and there's much better ways to meet the transportation needs of the area than Snyder's half-baked plan.

[Scottathew]

This is great news.

I hope it starts by merging DDOT and SMART and making it one giant system that doesn't have routes oddly end at political boundaries such as 8-Mile.

The next step is to get started on transit systems such as light rail and BRT that will move people from the suburbs to downtown. M1 Rail would be a great start, and let's not puss out after three miles, let's implement M1 Rail all the way to at least 15 Mile, if not all the way to Pontiac.

I don't like the full scope of Snyder's BRT plan, but I think it make make sense on routes such as Woodward\Gratiot\Michigan\Fort\Grand River. These routes connect Detroit with the suburbs and will help with building on the momentum downtown.

Also, I'd like to see M1 Rail elevated where possible, most likely from McNichols and north. This would make M1 Rail FASTER than car travel when trying to get from the suburbs to destinations in Detroit.

[dtowncitylover]

Also, I'd like to see M1 Rail elevated where possible, most likely from McNichols and north. This would make M1 Rail FASTER than car travel when trying to get from the suburbs to destinations in Detroit.

Elevated? Really? Elevated? It may make it faster but it will cost, as previously debated and discussed to the point of exhaustion on this forum, more. Not just a little more, ALOT MORE. We would have to have the economies of London, Paris, and Tokyo combined to be able to afford elevated transit these days.

Elevated, oh boy...

[Hermod]

Maybe begin the light rail in Pontiac and build towards Detroit. It is more likely to be completed then.

[jt1]

Maybe begin the light rail in Pontiac and build towards Detroit. It is more likely to be completed then.

Yes, because Oakland County is sooooo supportive of public transit. It seems to me you have some sort of disorder that forces you to post an uneducated, snarky bs response to anything mass transit related.

[DetroitPlanner]

When does M-1 actually start construction? Do they have to go through another Environmental Impact Survey?

When does the superbus get underway? Does this also have to go through an Impact Study? If so when can that get started?

What about SEMCOG's supposed plan? Snyder bus stops in Birmingham. SEMCOG has been looking at alternatives that go all the way to Pontiac and included light rail. Where does that fit in?

M-1 starts construction this Fiscal Year [[2013) If everything goes right.
http://www.semcog.org/direction2035_..._20121108.aspx

SEMCOG is also seeking comments on the rest of Woodward.
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...etingFlyer.pdf

[wolverine]

Elevated? Really? Elevated? It may make it faster but it will cost, as previously debated and discussed to the point of exhaustion on this forum, more. Not just a little more, ALOT MORE. We would have to have the economies of London, Paris, and Tokyo combined to be able to afford elevated transit these days.

Elevated, oh boy...

Roughly priced, Detroit would be looking at $125-130 million per mile going elevated. It is much less expensive to go ground, but there's more maintenance complications and liabilities when a system is no longer isolated and shares the network with other modes. I've never done life cycle cost analysis with ground vs elevated which I guess some may argue would make the upfront cost look a bit less painful. It's hard to tell. When trains are off the ground your wear and tear shifts from trains and track to the stations which require additional lighting, elevators, escalators, more security, etc.

[professorscott]

I'm glad everyone's excited to discuss this but we're putting the cart ahead of the horse. The FIRST thing the RTA Board has to figure out is how to get the public to approve funding for a new system. The money available for current sources is not adequate for any substantial improvements.

What gets built depends on the amount of money the public chooses to make available. The Board will have to perform a delicate balancing act: providing the voters enough information for them to be able to make an informed choice, without overpromising. I wish them well.

You should read the legislation to be sure, but I seem to recall that the voting mechanism is region wide. Either the whole region votes in favor of new funding, or it all votes in opposition.

[Scottathew]

Elevated? Really? Elevated?

LOL, yes, really!

I don't think it will happen, but I wish it would. The big thing about public transit in many large cities like New York is that it's actually FASTER than taking an automobile from point to point.

I went to a Mets game once and I was able to be back in Times Square faster than I could have got out of a parking lot in a car.

Your outlook is probably more realistic and I most certainly would compromise with light rail or BRT.

I just wish that would would handle this economic crisis like we did the one 80 years ago, with large amounts of bold infrastructure investment.

[Hypestyles]

we'll see... or not.. especially now that right to work is cast in stone. there's a lot going on in the next few years that will probably get reflexive opposition who's driven by "no takeover!" or "no tax!" as their mantra..

[drpoundsign]

ahh..yes. or rather, No. Remember commuting down the Lodge to Wayne State during Undergraduate school in the 70s-80s. Sllowww with the sun glaring in your eyes on the Wyoming curve. Not to mention snow in the Winter, stalls and wrecks. you needed to listen to WWJ traffic to not get trapped in the "Ditch." You could exit at Livernois, or say Linwood and take a "scenic" route to school. But NOW, traffic is probably not as bad, with all of the abandonment and shrinkage.

Elevated railways in New York were considered noisy and Spark-y. But with modern monorails it would not be so bad. Maybe if there's enough coastal storms flooding and California Quakes Cleveland and the D will be attractive by comparison..and begin growing again.

[michimoby]

ahh..yes. or rather, No. Remember commuting down the Lodge to Wayne State during Undergraduate school in the 70s-80s. Sllowww with the sun glaring in your eyes on the Wyoming curve. Not to mention snow in the Winter, stalls and wrecks. you needed to listen to WWJ traffic to not get trapped in the "Ditch." You could exit at Livernois, or say Linwood and take a "scenic" route to school. But NOW, traffic is probably not as bad, with all of the abandonment and shrinkage.

Elevated railways in New York were considered noisy and Spark-y. But with modern monorails it would not be so bad. Maybe if there's enough coastal storms flooding and California Quakes Cleveland and the D will be attractive by comparison..and begin growing again.

We have six lanes of Woodward available for ground-based transit use. Cutting it down to four isn't going to ruin anything.

[ghettopalmetto]

I haven't had a chance to read too much about the RTA legislation. Does anyone know if the RTA will have bonding [[i.e. construction) capacity, or if it is only permitted to act as an operating authority?

[tkelly1986]

Maybe begin the light rail in Pontiac and build towards Detroit. It is more likely to be completed then.

Ironically I heard this same proposal from a Oakland County leader a while back. Sadly, I agree with you that it is more likely to happen if this is the plan...

[unrealdetroit]

The best thing for the region and city at this point is to build some sort of diesel or electric multiple unit commuter rail system [[or light-rail even), stretching out far into the suburbs and connecting various satellite cities such as Ann Arbor, on mostly existing track right-of-ways, but build new tracks where possible. While in the central city, a streetcar system or light-rail system plus a substantialy improved bus network. This whole system would be very costly, but worth it for the long term viability and stability of our region.

[brizee]

They can start out by ditching Snyder's BRT plan. There's nothing in the legislation that mandates BRT and there's much better ways to meet the transportation needs of the area than Snyder's half-baked plan.

Yesterday's meeting was pretty interesting.

This project has been acting as a pseudo RTA until an actual one was formed.

There were reps from the feds and the RTA there.

This plan is much farther along than the proposed "triangle" from Snyder.

If everything goes right and it's funded this Woodward bus/lightrail is gonna get started before any Gratiot/Michigan/M-59 line.

The guy answering questions on the RTA stated the Macomb to Oakland line was a bone thrown out to get everyone in the area to buy in. It's on the backburner. If they get to it ok, but it's not the real priority.

It was originally proposed Detroit's representation would be nominated by the mayor and confirmed by the council but that's not the case.

Any rail projects need a unanimous vote from the exec board to go to vote.

The vote is a simple majority. He said if it was like the DIA vote, locations would be selfish and shortsighted. My words not his.

I think it was either Royal Oak or Birmingham don't want it to go down Woodward but to veer off to their downtown.

It's pretty much considering the same steps the original 9-mile light rail was.

Grand River was thrown out by either an FTA guy or someone with the state. Interesting as I never heard Grand River was on their radar.

There was a board where people could their three most pressing concerns about the project/transportation in general. Popular ones were reliability, access for elderly and disabled, infrastructure and development, ridership. I didn't see anyone voicing concerns for either startup costs or long term costs.

Appearantly land developers from downtown to the suburbs have been bugging the shit out of SEMCOG about this. They're ready to start projects and are waiting on word.

There were reps from other groups. One was talking about the state fair grounds. They're not even taking transit into consideration. Something like a third of their project is going into parking. They have been in contact recently though so progress might be made.

I recommend going to the remaining meeting they can. It's not a bad way to kill 90 minutes.

[Scottathew]

I think it was either Royal Oak or Birmingham don't want it to go down Woodward but to veer off to their downtown.

I really love the idea of it veering off to go through Royal Oak's downtown. It would be huge.

[Detroitnerd]

I really love the idea of it veering off to go through Royal Oak's downtown. It would be huge.

In the old days, the Woodward line didn't "veer off" into Royal Oak's Main Street. It was a separate branch of the interurban that ran out to Rochester. Royal Oak's "main street" was transit-oriented development for the interurban that ran through there.

We should be wary of having trains that "veer off" to entertainment districts. The primary objective of rapid transit is to move a lot of people quickly, not hit every cool stop along the way.

[Hermod]

Ironically I heard this same proposal from a Oakland County leader a while back. Sadly, I agree with you that it is more likely to happen if this is the plan...

23 miles from downtown to Pontiac on the old DUR interurban. Figure 15 miles from Pontiac to 8-mile. Those 15 miles are probably the cheapest per-mile segment. Build those first which assures Oakland County buy-in. After those are built, there will be a groundswell of support for continuing downtown. If you build the three mile downtown segment first, it may just die there and be a people mover shuttle instead of a loop.

[brizee]

23 miles from downtown to Pontiac on the old DUR interurban. Figure 15 miles from Pontiac to 8-mile. Those 15 miles are probably the cheapest per-mile segment. Build those first which assures Oakland County buy-in. After those are built, there will be a groundswell of support for continuing downtown. If you build the three mile downtown segment first, it may just die there and be a people mover shuttle instead of a loop.

The street car and this Woodward project are completely unrelated.

They're in communication and coordination but seperate entities.

[Hermod]

In the old days, the Woodward line didn't "veer off" into Royal Oak's Main Street. It was a separate branch of the interurban that ran out to Rochester. Royal Oak's "main street" was transit-oriented development for the interurban that ran through there.

We should be wary of having trains that "veer off" to entertainment districts. The primary objective of rapid transit is to move a lot of people quickly, not hit every cool stop along the way.

The main line from Detroit to Pontiac didn't veer off on to Royal Oak Main Street, but it did veer off Woodward. The line left Woodward onto Washington Ave in Royal Oak and continued north on Washington to the DUR station at Washington Ave and 4th Street. Leaving the station, the line curved west on to 11 Mile Road to Woodward where it curved north on Woodward to Pontiac.

Two lines branched off at the station. The Stephenson line went east on 4th St to Stephenson Hwy then south on Stephenson till it connected to the Woodward line in Highland Park. The Flint Line went east on 4th St to Main St where it curved north toward Rochester, Lake Orion, Oxford, Goodrich, and Flint. Another line left the Flint line just north of Rochester and went to Romeo, Almont, and Imlay City.

[Hermod]

The street car and this Woodward project are completely unrelated.

They're in communication and coordination but seperate entities.

So it will be an isolated 3-mile long people mover shuttle?

I thought we wanted to build a regional transit system

[tkelly1986]

If you are in favor of light-rail and a tie in to the M-1 Project, I highly encourage you to voice your opinion at the SEMCOG community planning events [[tonight is Ferndale). As it stands, the light-rail project from Hart Plaza to 8 mile is scrapped. However, that doesn’t mean light-rail can’t be the mode choice for the Hart Plaza to Pontiac plan. In fact, I have been told there are a number of elected officials along the Woodward Corridor in Oakland County that would like to see this happen. The problem is the following:

• RTA legislation only allows the board to raise money to fund bussing projects, which BRT is a part of.
  
  • This legislation can be amended however to include light-rail, but that would take more work in Lansing. If it were amended, then the RTA could put light rail funding to a vote.
  
  
• It looks like the M-1 is moving forward. It also seems that the mode of transportation preferred by the government actors [[state/fed) is BRT. Therefore, the end product could be a BRT from Pontiac to New Center and then the rider would be required to change modes to complete the trip.
  
  • If this plan sounds as idiotic to you as it does to me, the only way to change what some consider a foregone conclusion is to voice your opinion….Tonight in Ferndale is a good start.

Like most folks on this board the fear is that Metro Detroit will go the cheap route and screw this up. It is now time for people to step up and tell the “leaders” what they want. And if that is a BRT/Street-Car hybrid, so be it.

http://www.woodwardanalysis.com/get_..._meetings.aspx