Where Detroit public transportation goes from here.

[stasu1213]

I was called "being negative" on another thread when I had voiceed my frustration on the continous setback of the grounbreaking for lightrail. I believe that there are powers to be in this city and state who want to keep Detroit car dependent. Planners, elected officials, and behind the scene corporate puppeteers atr put into place to stall any plans of dependable mass transit; light rail or RTA. I know that Gilbert and other supporters are ready to throw up their hands on the whole concept while GM and others are probably beaming with joy for thr setbackd

[Hermod]

I was called "being negative" on another thread when I had voiceed my frustration on the continous setback of the grounbreaking for lightrail. I believe that there are powers to be in this city and state who want to keep Detroit car dependent. Planners, elected officials, and behind the scene corporate puppeteers atr put into place to stall any plans of dependable mass transit; light rail or RTA. I know that Gilbert and other supporters are ready to throw up their hands on the whole concept while GM and others are probably beaming with joy for thr setbackd

I don't think that the auto companies worry that the magic choo choo will hurt their sales that much. It is just a parking shuttle for the stadia and a way for Wayne Staters to get home from downtown pubs without a DUI.

[professorscott]

I believe that there are powers to be in this city and state who want to keep Detroit car dependent. Planners, elected officials, and behind the scene corporate puppeteers atr put into place to stall any plans of dependable mass transit; light rail or RTA.

Responding to parts of the last couple of posts: first of all, Detroit was car dependent relative to other cities for a good reason; we were astonishingly prosperous. Detroit was an economic powerhouse with a strong middle class; Michigan had the highest incidence of vacation home ownership of any state, for example. In that situation, when just about everybody can afford to drive a car, why not? Shit, man, build freeways, build shopping malls, everybody can live in a single family house on a quarter acre lot and God bless.

The problem is, we are no longer prosperous, but the infrastructure we set up for transportation was set up to build and maintain roads, and all it knows how to do is build and maintain roads.

And, Stasu, the people you name would probably be flattered that you think it's a conspiracy. It's more along the lines of incompetence. GM and Ford aren't going to be impacted by transit efforts in Detroit; they are global companies and only sell a tiny fraction of their vehicles to the home market.

Finally, who the hell ever promised any improved transit, ever? SEMCOG has said all along for "MI Train" that they have neither money to run it nor permission from the freight railways to operate it. And the City's fantasy light rail line to the fairgrounds? Who was promising that: the City. You believe any promises from City Hall, my man, there's nothing I can do for you.

So far as I can tell, other than M1 Rail, nobody has promised anything whatever in the last thirty years or so. People aren't breaking any promises; they're not making any.

The RTA can't promise anything at all, yet. It hasn't any money with which to do anything whatever. That needs to be solved. Then the RTA needs to look at, overall, what transit does there need to be and where, and how do we get it where we need it. This is a long process, in a region that has never done this and has no local expertise, and it's going to take a while. Only after that can people start putting display boards in front of the public and trying to sell a plan.

None of this shit is going to be easy, and nothing is certain. But we have now, for the first time, people who are serious taking a serious look at it.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, call it the difference between what everybody knows we need and what everybody knows to expect. But a vision was unveiled to the public a few years ago of a single light-rail line running from Eight Mile Road to downtown Detroit and it electrified all these people in the city and the suburbs.

Then the rich people realized they would have to create something for the public instead of their own greedy selves and whined and cried and took their marbles home. They're building a parking shuttle and calling it a streetcar. Lansing has pushed a plan for a few bus lines and they're calling it "rapid transit." The RTA is a joke, headed by a political retread who knows jack about transit. Anybody watching this can smell where this is all headed, straight to the crapper for another generation.

I'm sorry, but incremental gains, no matter how monumentally incremental, are not going to electrify people the same way the plan for eight miles of light rail did. Smart people know it's what we need. And, as we don't get it -- as it is dumbed down, cut down, its purpose altered -- smart people know to give up on this region and go someplace serious about providing those amenities. And I totally don't blame them.

[Detroitnerd]

Another little troubling subtext here. Is this region so fucked-up that, instead of blaming the various governments for not providing decent rapid transit, we blame individual citizens for believing promises that it can be provided?

I've seen this before in a post by DP. He blamed would-be straphangers for not demanding rapid transit. [[As if it were that easy. Overwhelmingly, Americans have wanted to stop all this post-9/11 warring, and what has it wrought?) It's really just one more kick in the ass for people to pack up and go somewhere where a train will take you downtown in the morning without you have to deal with retrograde public officials, car nuts or to have to suck the dick of some billionaire to only get what he wants to offer you with the money you used to fund his tax abatements....

[DetroitPlanner]

Well, call it the difference between what everybody knows we need and what everybody knows to expect. But a vision was unveiled to the public a few years ago of a single light-rail line running from Eight Mile Road to downtown Detroit and it electrified all these people in the city and the suburbs.

The public has not clamored to support this vision through working with the politicians to fund it. Nothing about public transit comes cheap and we are barely able to afford the relatively meager system that we now have. I hear you blaming everyone from planners to politicians to the auto companies as being against this. Well it is simply not true, the main reason why we don't have a better system is that the public at large is not demanding it!

If you want something write all of your elected representatives and say so. That will give them the strength to put it on the ballot. A planner can't bring visions to fruition without funding. What little money we get from the feds and state is ever shrinking. Where will the money come from? It comes from you the public.

[stasu1213]

The public has not clamored to support this vision through working with the politicians to fund it. Nothing about public transit comes cheap and we are barely able to afford the relatively meager system that we now have. I hear you blaming everyone from planners to politicians to the auto companies as being against this. Well it is simply not true, the main reason why we don't have a better system is that the public at large is not demanding it!

If you want something write all of your elected representatives and say so. That will give them the strength to put it on the ballot. A planner can't bring visions to fruition without funding. What little money we get from the feds and state is ever shrinking. Where will the money come from? It comes from you the public.

I do remember that the best 3 mile train from Jefferson to Midtown was mostly privately funded. Still a monkeywrench had been thrown into the machinery. The problem with the I94 and the I75 bridges should had been settled a year ago when studies were being done on the project. Excuse after excuse are given to why the city does not need light rail

[stasu1213]

I don't think that the auto companies worry that the magic choo choo will hurt
their sales that much. It is just a parking shuttle for the stadia and a way for Wayne Staters to get home from downtown pubs without a DUI.

GM and others would be concern about the ball that this project will start rolling. I noticed that you didn't mention the RTA which will go beyond the 3 mile radius. I believe that their is a plot to stall the plan for any reliable mass transportation in this city. It appears to me that when we get close to breaking ground or cutting ribbons some knucklehead decide to attack a bus driver putting doubts in potential commuters minds as to would jumping on any mass transit would be a good idea. Bicycle and walking trails are being constructed all over the citywthin a fewmonths but a simple 3 mile train or RTA can't even leave the fricking drawing board after years of so called planning

[Detroitnerd]

The public has not clamored to support this vision through working with the politicians to fund it. Nothing about public transit comes cheap and we are barely able to afford the relatively meager system that we now have. I hear you blaming everyone from planners to politicians to the auto companies as being against this. Well it is simply not true, the main reason why we don't have a better system is that the public at large is not demanding it!

If you want something write all of your elected representatives and say so. That will give them the strength to put it on the ballot. A planner can't bring visions to fruition without funding. What little money we get from the feds and state is ever shrinking. Where will the money come from? It comes from you the public.

Blaming the public again?

I will say it again: When the public was presented with a VISION of transit connecting city and suburbs, you could tell the public got it right away. A local paper asked what was the best way to improve relations between Detroit and the suburbs, and the answer that won was "Link the city and suburbs with an effective mass transit system." People aren't stupid. They get it.

But I think people also understand what they're up against: Almost 60 years of intertia driving decisions, as opposed to actual visions and new ideas. Roads and cars are great things that produce lots of money for developers as long as the "growth machine" keeps running, but that's running down now. But just because people know it doesn't mean that politicians aren't thinly disguised demagogues, that planners aren't well-meaning fatheads, that billionaires aren't piss-poor transit planners, etc. You have a group of people that sees the potential, but also is savvy enough to know the futility of asking, say, L. Brooks Patterson to endorse a light rail line linking downtown Detroit and Royal Oak. When people get hosed on an issue over and over again, they get it. It's Chinatown.

Anyway, very amusing to have this debate with you and professor. On the one hand, you say people should rise up and tell their politicians that they DEMAND transit. On the other hand, professor seems to dismiss those hopeful about transit for BELIEVING their politicians.

[casscorridor]

It seems the way other cities have built transit systems recently is by the RTA making a ballot/millage proposal to voters that will fund the project. This will have to be the way it happens in Michigan. The problem is the lack of vision. If our horizons only go as far as "BRT", which probably won't actually be real BRT as Nerd pointed poit, then we will get nowhere. But if the RTA has a vision of a true rapid transit system connecting suburbs and city, it can sell it to the public with an effective PR campaign and have all the funding it needs to get started. In other words, the current RTA members need to resign and be replaced by true advocates to mass transit.

[brizee]

It seems the way other cities have built transit systems recently is by the RTA making a ballot/millage proposal to voters that will fund the project. This will have to be the way it happens in Michigan. The problem is the lack of vision. If our horizons only go as far as "BRT", which probably won't actually be real BRT as Nerd pointed poit, then we will get nowhere. But if the RTA has a vision of a true rapid transit system connecting suburbs and city, it can sell it to the public with an effective PR campaign and have all the funding it needs to get started. In other words, the current RTA members need to resign and be replaced by true advocates to mass transit.

You know the worst, and I mean absolute worst part about it?

It will be 2020 before we see ANYTHING.

This weakass watered down excuse for transit will still be debated years after a millage is actually passed.

I could almost stomach this Instant Mac-a-roni subsititue if it was actually quick. If a millage passes Nov 14, shovels need to be hitting the ground Jan 15.

We can't have a subway system.

We can't have an el system.


We get more busses on Woodward Gratiot and Michigan. And 2 out of three haven't even begun draft impact statements. We're at least 3 years from talking about thinking about considering hoisting this on the voters.

It's just what I thought it would be, a system designed to please dying old men.

Which BTW is the only demographic who seems to fucking matter in this state lately.

[Detroitnerd]

You know the worst, and I mean absolute worst part about it?

It will be 2020 before we see ANYTHING.

This weakass watered down excuse for transit will still be debated years after a millage is actually passed.

I could almost stomach this Instant Mac-a-roni subsititue if it was actually quick. If a millage passes Nov 14, shovels need to be hitting the ground Jan 15.

We can't have a subway system.

We can't have an el system.


We get more busses on Woodward Gratiot and Michigan. And 2 out of three haven't even begun draft impact statements. We're at least 3 years from talking about thinking about considering hoisting this on the voters.

It's just what I thought it would be, a system designed to please dying old men.

Which BTW is the only demographic who seems to fucking matter in this state lately.

If you wanted to lay light rail down Woodward right now, from Birmingham to downtown Detroit, you could probably show ridership numbers to indicate that the upgrade makes sense. I think they're trying to wait until everything is so spread out so they can say, "Well, gosh. Honestly, we'd love to lay down light rail, but the ridership numbers have dropped so low that they don't indicate that kind of upgrade is necessary."

Step one: Let horse out of barn.

Step two: Hope horse runs like hell.

Step three: When horse is over hill and out of sight, hammer barn door closed to keep [[nonexistent) animals from escaping.

[stasu1213]

If you wanted to lay light rail down Woodward right now, from Birmingham to downtown Detroit, you could probably show ridership numbers to indicate that the upgrade makes sense. I think they're trying to wait until everything is so spread out so they can say, "Well, gosh. Honestly, we'd love to lay down light rail, but the ridership numbers have dropped so low that they don't indicate that kind of upgrade is necessary."

Step one: Let horse out of barn.

Step two: Hope horse runs like hell.

Step three: When horse is over hill and out of sight, hammer barn door closed to keep [[nonexistent) animals from escaping.

Have a reliable transit system with transit police installed and you will see increase in ridership.
Dtroit had offered a piss poor unsafe transportation system that caused a decrease in ridership. Go figure