Dan Gilberts Retail Renaissance to include 70-90 retailers, including Target & Apple

**DetBill** · December-10-12, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Do you actually think people are going to hang around and keep paying taxes in these "poor neighborhoods" like Boston Edison, Indian Village, Gold Coast. etc. so you can live in Bohemia and drink $10 latte's? Either these neighborhoods start getting the City services they pay a pretty penny for, or they're going to leave. [[you know "abandon" the City). With more tax base gone, your services are going to start suffering too. Pretty soon your rosy glasses are going to get a bit foggy.

Honky Tonk, Ive never had a $10 latte or a latte for that matter in my life. maybe you have as you seem to know all about them. Not a coffee drinker, .Ive lived here for 23 years in the Lafayette area and have probably seen more of the city , bad and good, over the years that you have. so please dont make ridiculous accusations about rose colored glasses..Im not quite sure what your talking about in my comments as I mentioned that the way the city is going only downtown and midtown appears to becoming more viable,, I made no reference to the success of the Indian Village, BE, or GC areas , infact , obviously they would be in trouble.. You need to read more intently before you criticize , try to use some manners on here.

**krapug1** · December-11-12, 10:54 AM

It is very easy to be cynical about any downtown retail project, but lets see what does get announced in January.

As for setting expectations, a Target would do very well downtown, even more than the City Target format. Although there has been a lot of press about their truncated City Target stores, they do have urban versions of their full line stores in spots like downtown Brooklyn.

As for an Apple store, IF that was to happen expect something like the store they opened along Walnut Street in Philly, not the large flagship the stores that they have in Boston, or New York.

As for Nordstrom, get real, the only way to lure a company like Nordstrom would be to give them tax abatements, and/or operating subsidies.
Officials in Indy were kicking themselves for not requiring a minimum commitment from Nordstrom when it opened downtown, and then left, last year.

Ask Pittsburgh abut how well it went when they "gave the ranch away", to land Lord and Taylor, and the new Lazarus building. JC Penney opened a store in Center City Philly in 1984, and bolted once their 10 year commitment was up.

Downtown retail needs to prove itself and with stores that want to be here, not bribed to be here.

Ken

**Danny** · December-11-12, 02:42 PM

Pop up retails in Downtown Detroit by Dan Gilbert is fine. But Mr. Gilbert doesn't need to be too quick about bringing permanent retail like Apple and Target Store yet. Security needs to be planned and enforced. Opening and closing times needs be set. Downtown Detroit has to let go of its 9 to 5 era and become a 24 hr. never sleep phase. But Downtown Detroit is not a 24 hr. entertainment center. It hasn't have a decent flagship department store since Hudson's left over 30 years ago. If Gilbert wants to save Downtown Detroit from Coleman Young's failed kleptocratic Afrocentric phase, he needs to take baby steps from his businesses venture first. If young professionals like the way prepare Downtown Detroit buildings to their liking, then they will come to build their permanent businesses that would one day rival Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City combined.

**Detroitdave** · December-11-12, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by krapug1

It is very easy to be cynical about any downtown retail project, but lets see what does get announced in January.

As for setting expectations, a Target would do very well downtown, even more than the City Target format. Although there has been a lot of press about their truncated City Target stores, they do have urban versions of their full line stores in spots like downtown Brooklyn.

As for an Apple store, IF that was to happen expect something like the store they opened along Walnut Street in Philly, not the large flagship the stores that they have in Boston, or New York.

As for Nordstrom, get real, the only way to lure a company like Nordstrom would be to give them tax abatements, and/or operating subsidies.
Officials in Indy were kicking themselves for not requiring a minimum commitment from Nordstrom when it opened downtown, and then left, last year.

Ask Pittsburgh abut how well it went when they "gave the ranch away", to land Lord and Taylor, and the new Lazarus building. JC Penney opened a store in Center City Philly in 1984, and bolted once their 10 year commitment was up.

Downtown retail needs to prove itself and with stores that want to be here, not bribed to be here.

Ken

Very god ken ! and true !

**DetroitPlanner** · December-11-12, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Pop up retails in Downtown Detroit by Dan Gilbert is fine. But Mr. Gilbert doesn't need to be too quick about bringing permanent retail like Apple and Target Store yet. Security needs to be planned and enforced. Opening and closing times needs be set. Downtown Detroit has to let go of its 9 to 5 era and become a 24 hr. never sleep phase. But Downtown Detroit is not a 24 hr. entertainment center. It hasn't have a decent flagship department store since Hudson's left over 30 years ago. If Gilbert wants to save Downtown Detroit from Coleman Young's failed kleptocratic Afrocentric phase, he needs to take baby steps from his businesses venture first. If young professionals like the way prepare Downtown Detroit buildings to their liking, then they will come to build their permanent businesses that would one day rival Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City combined.

One of the good things about having few landowners is that the coordination needed to manage downtown as a mall is easier. REITS [[Real Estate Investment Trusts) have done this in places like Pittsburgh and Atlanta.

**shoelessjoe** · December-11-12, 09:02 PM

Pittsburgh is certainly a good example to use - Downtown Pitt is relatively healthy and "traditional" retail remains a challenge there. As stated - big incentives to bring in L&T [[and molest the Mellon Bank building in the process), and to get Federated to build a new Lazarus store across from Kaufmann's [[having closed the predecessor Horne's location)...Federated and May Co [[L&T) folded the tent as soon as they were able. Lazarus is mixed use/residential and L&T is still vacant. Macy's [[Kaufmann's) soldiers onward. Saks just left town as well. "Destination" retail doesnt need to be downtown...it can be anywhere...hence Nordstrom in Downtown Indy not surviving once the suburban location [[Keystone Crossing) was well-established.

**southen** · December-11-12, 09:09 PM

just pondering what Gilbert might do next... anyone think it would make sense for Gilbert to purchase the short building on the guardian block fronting Woodward? to me that would be the perfect spot to establish some retail in a high profile spot between two of his properties. a target may work better further north but I could see an apple store and other retail there.

**dtowncitylover** · December-11-12, 11:04 PM

They might play a small role, but I think Canadian shoppers should also be a factor. Many Windsorites come over to shop and shoppers from London and Toronto come in too. They might be more willing to stay downtown and not have to deal with Detroit area traffic and drivers at the local malls. They would stay at our hotels, eat at our restaurants, gamble at the casinos, attend our sports events, and shop at the stores downtown. And Windsorites would be able to take the bus, stay the day, and get back for dinner.

For course many come in from Toronto for the high end stores that Buffalo doesn't offer and Somerset is their answer. But you never know.

**gthomas** · December-11-12, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by southen

just pondering what Gilbert might do next... anyone think it would make sense for Gilbert to purchase the short building on the guardian block fronting Woodward? to me that would be the perfect spot to establish some retail in a high profile spot between two of his properties. a target may work better further north but I could see an apple store and other retail there.

Yes, I was thinking of the same thing. Perfect spot for a Apple Store and a 24hr Starbucks, it once had plans to place two football field size flat screens on the facades. Have a few marques and other interactive billboards and information displayed.

**Planner3357** · December-12-12, 01:47 AM

I am so happy my job took me to Philly. At least now I can see real progress in a city. I feel sorry for all of you still stuck in Detroit that are forced to believe in a fake reality of growth. It's never happening. Detroit will not come back. It is dead. Thank city council for that. While the recent growth of the central city may seem productive...Detroit is a huge city and there is much, much, much work to be done. If I were to move back to Michigan, Detroit would not be on my list. Maybe if I was naive as shit, under 30, and without a family. But realistically, forget about it. Detroit is fucked. I loved living down there. But things never seemed to get better. You can put lipstick on a pig.....blah blah blah. I love Detroit..but man it has a ways to go.

**Dexlin** · December-12-12, 02:43 AM

No, you really don't love Detroit. Good riddance, BTW.

**Parkguy** · December-15-12, 04:02 PM

Planner3357: I don't blame City Council. They are politicians, and like politicians all over the world, they do things that will get them re-elected, logical or not. I blame the ladies I see on the Chicago or New York shuttle flights from Metro. They will spend hundreds of dollars to fly out for a day of shopping in an urban environment and call it exciting, but would never even think of demanding that kind of retail experience here at home. I blame federal and state policies that reward building in the hinterlands while actually penalizing rebuilding in the urban core. And I blame people who will jump in the car to drive 10 miles to go to a chain restaurant or a big box store and would never use a local business because it isn't a well-known chain. After two decades of this, we are at a place where you HAVE to drive to a "retail center" [[AKA major highway or freeway interchange) to find retail. And that affects not only the city-- there are plenty of neighborhoods in the suburbs where you have to drive five or six miles to get to a grocery store, especially in the outer McMansion 'burbs. But they don't call those neighborhoods "food deserts." That's just the way retail is done these days. That is starting to change. Chicago's business districts will get even better, since they are building on a strong base, and Detroit's will get better, too, but we are starting from a base that is in much worse shape. Our vital neighborhood retail was dismantled long ago.

**313WX** · December-15-12, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

No, you really don't love Detroit.

So because one doesn't want to be a part of Bing, Gilbert and Snyder's social engineering project, it automatically makes them less of a Detroiter?

**Honky Tonk** · December-15-12, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

So because one doesn't want to be a part of Bing and Snyder's social engineering project, it automatically makes them less of a Detroiter?

He "abandoned" Detroit.

**313WX** · December-15-12, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

He "abandoned" Detroit.

It's better to say Detroit "abandoned" him.

**Honky Tonk** · December-15-12, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

It's better to say Detroit "abandoned" him.

I TOTALLY agree.

**Gistok** · December-15-12, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Planner3357

I am so happy my job took me to Philly. At least now I can see real progress in a city. I feel sorry for all of you still stuck in Detroit that are forced to believe in a fake reality of growth. It's never happening. Detroit will not come back. It is dead. Thank city council for that. While the recent growth of the central city may seem productive...Detroit is a huge city and there is much, much, much work to be done. If I were to move back to Michigan, Detroit would not be on my list. Maybe if I was naive as shit, under 30, and without a family. But realistically, forget about it. Detroit is fucked. I loved living down there. But things never seemed to get better. You can put lipstick on a pig.....blah blah blah. I love Detroit..but man it has a ways to go.

Well we're really going to miss you caustic comments on this forum... as for wonderful Philly how's the concert scene there? Oh that's right... there's not quite that much in city center... since every last one of the old movie palaces in downtown Philly was razed decades ago... when stars come to town.. generally they go to the Wells Fargo Center Arena [[great sightlines.... not)... or out to the suburbs... where there still are theatres left. When the Lion King comes to Philly locals complain that they have to go see it at the 1857 built Academy of Music [[built for 1857 sized people)... otherwise they go out to the suburbs to see a show.

Perhaps your living in downtown wasn't the greatest... but we still have an entertainment center that puts Philly to shame... and a cultural scene in Midtown that is every bit as good as Philly.

JVB · December-15-12, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Planner3357

I am so happy my job took me to Philly.

We'll leave a light on for you.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-15-12, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Well we're really going to miss you caustic comments on this forum... as for wonderful Philly how's the concert scene there? Oh that's right... there's not quite that much in city center... since every last one of the old movie palaces in downtown Philly was razed decades ago... when stars come to town.. generally they go to the Wells Fargo Center Arena [[great sightlines.... not)... or out to the suburbs... where there still are theatres left. When the Lion King comes to Philly locals complain that they have to go see it at the 1857 built Academy of Music [[built for 1857 sized people)... otherwise they go out to the suburbs to see a show.

Perhaps your living in downtown wasn't the greatest... but we still have an entertainment center that puts Philly to shame... and a cultural scene in Midtown that is every bit as good as Philly.

Or perhaps they could go to the Kimmel Center or any of the half dozen theatres that surround it? http://www.kimmelcenter.org/facilities/

You're never going to build up Detroit by tearing down other places. Ignore the goating you are falling into his trap. If he really did not care for Detroit why the heck is he posting here?

For a guy who is so into historic theatres you really should not be ripping apart a 150 year old concert hall.

**Gistok** · December-16-12, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

For a guy who is so into historic theatres you really should not be ripping apart a 150 year old concert hall.

I'm 6' 4"... so let me give you a little viewers review... where even the Sistine Chapel would be subpar... and circulation space is an issue [[such as for anyone who has endured the intermission of Masonic...). So for the Academy of Music...
_____________

"But as evocative a space as it is, there are just too many issues, intrinsic in its very design, that make this a less than perfect place to enjoy its offerings. The horseshoe shape of the auditorium, the very tight squeeze between rows, and the liberal use of support columns create a space where seemingly half the seats are either obstructed, totally blocked, or at the very least, extremely uncomfortable. That is not to say there are not excellent seats available, but those go quickly and you really have to know your way around a seating chart to get the most bang for your buck.

Other considerations ... bathrooms are few and inadequate, and stairways, exits/entrances tend to get very clogged and claustrophobic at the beginning and end of a performance. "
_______________

You can put all the history and ornate plasterwork into a historic venue... if it's not a comfortable experience, then it's generally not a pleasant experience...

As for the Kimmel Center... well that's their "new" version of Detroit's Orchestra Hall... apparently their 150+ year old Academy of Music wasn't up to par for the elite of Philly... so they built a new symphonic center.. and use the old cramped one for stage shows....

The Kimmel Center is "theatre in the round"... one of the least appealing types of venues... [[the performers are never sure which way to face...).....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:To...mmelCenter.JPG

**DetroitPlanner** · December-16-12, 10:14 PM

This thread is about retail, not an arguement that Philly sucks. You have falled for the spoiled grapes of someone who chose to plan for a city that is much easier to plan for. But Philly has department stores. Even a Kmart downtown on Market Street. Want to know where the K-mart is? It is across the street from the Macy's. Bringing up Philly's movie theatres that are no longer there will not bring retail to downtown Detroit.

**krapug1** · December-17-12, 11:42 AM

It's fine to draw comparisons with other cities when it comes to retail and genera offerings at that cities 'downtown" area, but I also agree that tearing apart another city it not the way to go.

Center City has had it's challenges, but it has maintained a retail core that includes Macy's on Market at 13th Street [[on 3 floors of the former John Wanamaker flagship), and a Big K-Mart on Market at 10th [[on 2 floors of the former Gimbel's flagship that was built in 1977 as part of the Gallery Mall).

Downtown Detroit does have a 1st run conventional movie theatre in the Ren Center, and this is something that Center City lacks. Center City does have several "art-house" movie houses [[operating under the Landmark/Ritz chain), in CC, but for general release movies you have to go to University City, South Philly, North Philly, or elsewhere. The last of Center City's first run movie theatres shut in part as a reaction to the Easter Sunday "mini-riot" of 1985, and the final one, the Sam-Eric closed in 2002.

Now it's back to the downtown retail discussion.

Ken

**bassab** · December-17-12, 01:51 PM

Now that Mr. Gilbert apparently has bought the Kresege Building, is the retail space [[3 levels as I recall) large enough for a City Target?

**krapug1** · December-17-12, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by bassab

Now that Mr. Gilbert apparently has bought the Kresege Building, is the retail space [[3 levels as I recall) large enough for a City Target?

It should be, as most of the City Targets open now are under 100,000. sq/f of selling space. The one in Chicago is larger, but that was considered an exception to a City Target size, not the rule.

I think the S.S. Kresge building would be a perfect fit.

Ken

**esp1986** · December-17-12, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by krapug1

It should be, as most of the City Targets open now are under 100,000. sq/f of selling space. The one in Chicago is larger, but that was considered an exception to a City Target size, not the rule.

I think the S.S. Kresge building would be a perfect fit.

Ken

Agreed. Location is great too.