Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder says right-to-work issue is on the table

**rb336** · December-07-12, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Interesting. I didn't think the percentages were so close. I always thought there was a 25-30% gap. By the "laws" of economics, all the middle school teachers must be gravitating to the RTW states and the non-RTW states must be hurting for teachers. It could be something other than money motivates the teachers to stay.

um, middle school teachers should be flocking to earn less money???? I think either your understanding of the laws of economics is flawed or you are reading the chart backwards

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-07-12, 04:22 PM

Gee.... I was thinking the same thing. Who wants to earn less? Then again,
some people claim, it isn't about the money......

**Vic01** · December-08-12, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by noise

In RTW states, employees who choose to not join the union are still provided the benefits negotiated by the union, as you'll see with even the most basic description of RTW. This is freeloading.

So, you mean to tell me if don't join, or "opt out" of the union... and get in trouble at work, I can then call in the union rep to meet with management and protect my job? Bullshit

**Pam** · December-08-12, 08:23 AM

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/a...xt%7CFRONTPAGE

The Capitol grounds were quieter Friday, but that’s only because union groups and lawmakers are gearing for a fiery showdown on Tuesday.
A day after Republicans forced initial votes on right-to-work legislation, protesters and opposition groups were formulating plans to amp up their efforts before the Legislature resumes its work next week.

**Pam** · December-08-12, 08:57 AM

http://www.facebook.com/events/121775524650254/

Thousands of workers will gather at the Lansing Center at 8am on Tuesday morning to march to the Michigan State Capitol Building.

**gnome** · December-08-12, 11:57 AM

Lansing is going to be a bit busy next week. Just might head in that direction myself. Seeing history being made is always interesting.

**Novine** · December-08-12, 12:39 PM

As much as I think RTW is a stupid overreach by the Governor and Republicans, 100,000 people can show up and it's still going to pass. The handful of Republicans who are against to RTW have already voted against it. The rest are in mostly safe districts, are diehard RTW supporters or are term-limited out and don't care what happens after the vote. What will be interesting is to see if the labor unions get their act together and go after some of the carryovers into the next session with recalls.

**Hermod** · December-08-12, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

um, middle school teachers should be flocking to earn less money???? I think either your understanding of the laws of economics is flawed or you are reading the chart backwards

Ummm, read what I wrote again very carefully. The chart says that middle school teachers in RTW states make more money than in non-RTW states. I then said that all of those teachers in the non-RTW states must be moving en-mass to th RTW states leaving the non-RTW states void of teachers. Since the non-RTW states seem to have enough teachers, then something other than salary must drive those teachers to stay in the non-RTW states

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-08-12, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Ummm, read what I wrote again very carefully. The chart says that middle school teachers in RTW states make more money than in non-RTW states. I then said that all of those teachers in the non-RTW states must be moving en-mass to th RTW states leaving the non-RTW states void of teachers. Since the non-RTW states seem to have enough teachers, then something other than salary must drive those teachers to stay in the non-RTW states

Most RTW states have a lower cost of living, so making less balances out. Maybe that's it, or some teachers actually love their jobs, it's not about the money.

**coracle** · December-08-12, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Most RTW states have a lower cost of living, so making less balances out. Maybe that's it, or some teachers actually love their jobs, it's not about the money.

Never mind what State they live in, nobody wants Teachers that don't "actually love their jobs". If they don't they ain't worth a shit. If you are great at your job the money will come; if you're not, you need to join a Union.

**rb336** · December-08-12, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Ummm, read what I wrote again very carefully. The chart says that middle school teachers in RTW states make more money than in non-RTW states.

you very clearly read it wrong:

RTW states: $49,306/year
non-RTW states: $55,863/year

**Wesley Mouch** · December-08-12, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by noise

In RTW states, employees who choose to not join the union are still provided the benefits negotiated by the union, as you'll see with even the most basic description of RTW. This is freeloading.

So let's go even farther and allow those who opt out to negotiate their own deal with the company. That's just called liberty and freedom of association.

**jackie5275** · December-08-12, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

So let's go even farther and allow those who opt out to negotiate their own deal with the company. That's just called liberty and freedom of association.

Sounds like a winner to me. If you don't need the union, you're on your own.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-08-12, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

So let's go even farther and allow those who opt out to negotiate their own deal with the company. That's just called liberty and freedom of association.

That's called Bull Shit, because the company is never going to bargain in good faith. The CEO's and top administrators will make sure they get their's though.

**Frankg** · December-09-12, 01:06 AM

This is all B.S. for several reasons.

1) This is not about worker freedom. If it was, then civil rights and other labor groups would be supporting this. Also, the fact that police and firefighters were exempt from this proposed law show this isn't really about worker freedom.

2) Workers in a union shop already do not have to join a union, and do not have to pay dues. These are called "Beck Rights." However, all workers in a union shop do have to pay a certain amount to a union for a representation fee. These fees only cover the union's cost of representation, but do not allow for political activity, etc. It is unfair if people benefit from union representation but then don't have to pay thier fair share for it. No other group in the world is forced to represent people like this without being compensated for it.

3) Unions already are democratic organizations and are bound by laws that hold them responsible to their memberships.

4) As for economic growth, there is no real evidence to support that RTW will enhance economic growth. When ranked with about 100 other economic variables, RTW is insignificant.

5) What this is really about is reducing political opposition to conservative agendas. Really, what do labor unions and Republican Tea Partiers have in common? Nothing. The Tea Party sees this as a way to reduce political opposition.

BTW, gnome, I didn't know you worked up in Lansing. I hired in machining intake manifolds on 2nd shift, March 2, 1979. Worked in water pumps another year or two then got sent to big car final assembly and from there to Plant 3 then Experimental Assembly.

**michimoby** · December-09-12, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Frankg

This is all B.S. for several reasons.

2) Workers in a union shop already do not have to join a union, and do not have to pay dues. These are called "Beck Rights." However, all workers in a union shop do have to pay a certain amount to a union for a representation fee. These fees only cover the union's cost of representation, but do not allow for political activity, etc. It is unfair if people benefit from union representation but then don't have to pay thier fair share for it. No other group in the world is forced to represent people like this without being compensated for it.

That's interesting. I pay more in city taxes in Detroit than I would in San Francisco but don't get shit for services. That's not really fair either...

I would offer up a counter-example that I, as a gun owner, am not required to join the NRA even though they advocate for my ownership rights.

On a side note, here's what I don't really understand: say the UAW is up for a round of salary negotiations with Chevrolet's top brass. Where within RTW legislation does it allow Chevy a loophole to state "Well, since our employees aren't required to pay union dues, we are going to negotiate a lower-wage contract with you."

Or what the union talking heads are not telling us is that, if they don't continue to receive the inglorious amounts of money to continue feeding their $500m "strike fund", then workers won't have leverage because there's not enough funds in the coffers to put up a fight.

In that regard, perhaps RTW will have another consequence, this one good: the union is valued based on the merit of its ideas, not how much money it raises. And at that point, perhaps union workers will be paid based on what the market demands -- just like the 82 percent of us non-unionized employees in Michigan face every given day of the week.

JVB · December-09-12, 11:22 AM

No offense to the anti-RTW crowd, but the union kind of brought this on themselves with Prop 2. They picked the fight with Snyder, so they get to deal with the consequences.

**rb336** · December-09-12, 01:56 PM

If they re-do prop 2 now, it wouldn't even be a question if it passed. Even when campaigning against prop 2 a month and a half ago, Snyder said he wouldn't sign RTW legislation. he's a lying sack of crap and i'd love to see someone cover his doorstep with bags of wet, moldering cow manure

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-09-12, 04:25 PM

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2012312090161

Just call Snyder the "Lying King" He sealed his fate with this one.

**Novine** · December-09-12, 07:00 PM

"No offense to the anti-RTW crowd, but the union kind of brought this on themselves with Prop 2. They picked the fight with Snyder, so they get to deal with the consequences."

Republicans have been passing laws attacking the labor unions starting the day Snyder was sworn in. Where have you been?

JVB · December-09-12, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

Republicans have been passing laws attacking the labor unions starting the day Snyder was sworn in. Where have you been?

Maybe I missed it, which laws are you referring to?

**Jimaz** · December-09-12, 07:51 PM

Of all the fuses Snyder could have lit, he just had to pick the big one.

Let's hope nobody dies this time.

**Det_ard** · December-09-12, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Of all the fuses Snyder could have lit, he just had to pick the big one.

Let's hope nobody dies this time.

Hyperbole? Or am I forgetting something about the Snyder death squads?

I hope the protesters will respect the fact that they aren't the only ones with an opinion on this matter. They may be the loudest voices, but folks like me who aren't showing up to protest actually favor the RTW legislation and hope that our elected representatives are able to proceed without interference from an unruly mob. Peaceful protests are fine. Civil disobedience is fine too as long as the disobedient realize their disobedience to the law may require forcible arrest or removal. Sometimes that includes pepper spray, or other non-lethal measures. That's part of the bargain and every protester knows that.

**Jimaz** · December-09-12, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

Hyperbole? Or am I forgetting something about the Snyder death squads?...

"Snyder death squads" is the only hyperbole here and it's your hyperbole.

What you might be forgetting is your factual labor history: Flint Sit-Down Strike.

This isn't any routine Shock Doctrine scenario anymore.

Governor Snyder chose to light the big fuse and he didn't do it in innocence. He knows exactly what he's unleashed against Michigan.

**Jimaz** · December-09-12, 11:34 PM

This is clearly on President Obama's radar. Linked directly from The Obama Diary:

What You Need To Know About The Michigan GOP’s ‘Right-To-Work’ Assault On Workers

The state House included a budget appropriations provision that is intended to prevent the state’s voters from being able to legally challenge the law through a ballot referendum.

Seriously? Elected representatives have "included a budget appropriations provision that is intended to prevent the state’s voters from being able to legally challenge the law through a ballot referendum"?!

Your elected representatives are blatantly obstructing your own vote?!

This never was just a single-state issue. Snyder risked stepping way out of his jurisdiction to do this.

Draw your own conclusions as to why he chose to do that much damage to Michigan.