Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder says right-to-work issue is on the table

**Pam** · December-05-12, 07:38 AM

http://www.freep.com/article/2012120...sey=nav%7Chead

LANSING -- After more than a year of saying the hot-button right-to-work issue was not something he wanted to address, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder dramatically shifted his stance Tuesday, saying the controversial issue is now "on the agenda."

**jerrytimes** · December-05-12, 10:19 PM

By the voters voting against the proposals this past election, it sorta implies that the citizens want this. I for one, do. I don't feel that I should have to pay union due to work for a company. Now, of course, this means that I also will get paid differently and receive different benefits, but I should have that choice.

**noise** · December-06-12, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by jerrytimes

By the voters voting against the proposals this past election, it sorta implies that the citizens want this. I for one, do. I don't feel that I should have to pay union due to work for a company. Now, of course, this means that I also will get paid differently and receive different benefits, but I should have that choice.

But you won't get paid differently and get different benefits. You'll be freeloading on union efforts.

JVB · December-06-12, 09:52 AM

I worked for an automotive supplier for years and we had one non-union plant and several union plants, all in Metro Detroit. The guys in the non-union plant made more money. Anecdotal perhaps, but the union guys got stuck paying union dues and all they got was less money and a contract that management could walk all over anytime they wanted to.

Unions played an extremely important role in this country at one time, but most of the important things they ushered in are protected by labor law now, so the unions are redundant.

**brizee** · December-06-12, 11:42 AM

Snyder is showing himself to be exactly who I first thought he was.

He talks a good game about moderation.

Almost had me fooled too.

But action talks, and bullshit walks.

**rb336** · December-06-12, 12:38 PM

Mississippi, Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Texas, North Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee, Indiana, Florida, Louisiana, South Dakota and South Carolina. What do they have in common? They have the highest poverty rates in the country, the lowest literacy rates in the country and the lowest percentage of citizens with health insurance in the country. What else? Every one of them is a so-called “right to work” state.

**Det_ard** · December-06-12, 01:17 PM

This is but a small step toward reversing Michigan's negative reputation. Manufacturers avoid our state due to our strong union heritage. From a businesses perspective, unions are purely a negative factor. They raise your costs and promote inefficient work practices, things that aren't helpful when competing against businesses with market-based costs and best-in-class work practices. Since most businesses have choices on where to locate, Michigan gets put lower on the list. Hence fewer jobs in Michigan than otherwise.

Case in point -- name one foreign auto manufacturer that decided to build a plant here in the "Mecca" of the auto industry. The natural advantages of locating in an area with extensive automotive expertise was outweighed by the disadvantage of operating in a strong union environment. That's why every single "transplant" auto plant is located in a weak union environment. Dozens of assembly plants, surrrounded by the whole supply base that accompanies a major auto final assembly plant. Hundreds of thousands of decent jobs, including both high-tech manufacturing jobs and a lot of semi-skilled jobs.

Since we still have an overhang of unskilled and semi-skilled workers as a legacy of the days when a strong back was enough to get a Big 3 UAW job, we as a state really need these kind of manufacturing jobs. Yet we drive them away due to our strong union reputation. RTW is a step toward fixing that, for the betterment of the people of the state. I have to say, Synder and the Republicans in the legislature showed more courage here than I expected. I know there is a nasty and divisive shit-storm of protest headed their way. They may pay for it with their jobs, as out-of-state forces gear up to defeat them. Still, IMO they did the right thing for the people of Michigan in the long run.

**oladub** · December-06-12, 01:25 PM

rb, Don't forget California which now has the highest poverty rate in the Country, is the 47th highest in public school science proficiency ratings, is below average [[34th) in SAT scores, and 44th in health insurance coverage.

Forward!

**Danny** · December-06-12, 02:12 PM

Maybe its time for the unions to stop being too GREEDY. Unions are socialist [[pre-communist) organization that work hard for their quotas and earn priviledges [[not rights). If you join the union you don't have rights of free will and reason. You will be forced to pay dues for collectilization of the masses or face serious consequences or loss of benefits and privileges. I miss those good ole' days of the unions where people fight socially for equal pay as the elitists.

**old guy** · December-06-12, 03:01 PM

I just saw on CNN that protestors just shut down the state capitol in Lansing over this matter.

**Jimaz** · December-06-12, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

I just saw on CNN that protestors just shut down the state capitol in Lansing over this matter.

Did they show how many police were present? [[CNN is on a different topic now.)

**old guy** · December-06-12, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Did they show how many police were present? [[CNN is on a different topic now.)

I think they said they were bringing in an additional 50 troopers. There were about 2000 people inside and some outside.

**rb336** · December-06-12, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

This is but a small step toward reversing Michigan's negative reputation. Manufacturers avoid our state due to our strong union heritage.

Sorry, bub, facts refute your claim. Michigan leads in new manufacturing jobs - and by a WIDE margin of 30% - over runner-up Texas. And that isd info from the least labor-friendly organization in the country.

http://www.uschamber.com/sites/defau...s-2012-web.pdf

**Det_ard** · December-06-12, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Sorry, bub, facts refute your claim. Michigan leads in new manufacturing jobs - and by a WIDE margin of 30% - over runner-up Texas. And that isd info from the least labor-friendly organization in the country.

http://www.uschamber.com/sites/defau...s-2012-web.pdf

Selective reporting on your part. Think beyond one year, the year that happens to be one in which our auto manufacturing sector recovers slightly from the huge downturn. How many final assembly plants did Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz build in the US? And what percent of those were in Michigan? Answer to the last question is "0%".

**jerrytimes** · December-06-12, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by noise

But you won't get paid differently and get different benefits. You'll be freeloading on union efforts.

Why not? Why wouldn't the company pay you differently? The wages that the union negotiates are for their members. The company can pay you what they want to offer you and it will be up to you if you accept it.

Where I work currently, there are a few offices in the country that have union labor, some that don't. The employees and paid differently and have different benefits.

**noise** · December-06-12, 05:35 PM

Business wants slave labor. Michigan should enact a law where every worker gets paid $0.50/hr. and works 12 hrs./7 days a week. Now watch the job growth skyrocket!

I'm glad Michigan is full of worker bees who tow their corporate overlords line. Always, idiotically, voting against their own interests.

**jerrytimes** · December-06-12, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Maybe its time for the unions to stop being too GREEDY. Unions are socialist [[pre-communist) organization that work hard for their quotas and earn priviledges [[not rights). If you join the union you don't have rights of free will and reason. You will be forced to pay dues for collectilization of the masses or face serious consequences or loss of benefits and privileges. I miss those good ole' days of the unions where people fight socially for equal pay as the elitists.

I agree. My problem with some unions is that they do not want fair pay, they only want more pay. I think that it was Ford or GM a few years back that had lost money every quarter for a few years straight, the unions actually took a few concessions which helped their employer [[smart of them). The company had ONE quarter in the black and the unions instantly wanted all the concessions back. That's greed. After a few quarters.... sure, but instantly? The union needs to revert back to what they were originally made for. Fair pay for and fair days work in a safe working environment.

Have any of you union members ever asked your selves why your union leaders make six figures? Hoffa makes over $300,000 a year. Isn't that sorta the same things as those greedy CEO's making all kinds of money?

**rb336** · December-06-12, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

Selective reporting on your part. Think beyond one year, the year that happens to be one in which our auto manufacturing sector recovers slightly from the huge downturn. How many final assembly plants did Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz build in the US? And what percent of those were in Michigan? Answer to the last question is "0%".

Talk about your selective reporting. The US CoC is a broad-based study, and it has produced similar results. Loss of manufacturing here was mostly due to federal government incentives for MOVING overseas [[also reported by CoC). The head of Electrolux actually said that that was the determining factor.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-06-12, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by jerrytimes

By the voters voting against the proposals this past election, it sorta implies that the citizens want this. I for one, do. I don't feel that I should have to pay union due to work for a company. Now, of course, this means that I also will get paid differently and receive different benefits, but I should have that choice.

And you will work for substantially less money, A lot of companies in this state now that are non-union pay their workers $10.00 or less a hr, and work them like Egyptian slaves. Who can raise a family or try to get ahead on that? And companies will be able to let you go without just cause. Right to Work will ruin this state. Gov Snyder lied and said he would stay away from this hot button issue, now he's reversed course. He's going to be in for a fight.

JVB · December-06-12, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by noise

Business wants slave labor. Michigan should enact a law where every worker gets paid $0.50/hr. and works 12 hrs./7 days a week. Now watch the job growth skyrocket!

I'm glad Michigan is full of worker bees who tow their corporate overlords line. Always, idiotically, voting against their own interests.

You should really spend some time studying business and economics so you don't come off sounding so uninformed.

**Patrick** · December-06-12, 06:15 PM

So when MI becomes a RTW state, does that mean we can finally snap shit away from the hillbilly states?

**firstandten** · December-06-12, 08:38 PM

Back in the 80's the marriage between Mazda and Ford at the Flat Rock plant was one that the Japanese manufacturing world looked at. Depending on how that relationship worked out more Japanese auto manufacturers could have decided to locate in Mi. The relationship soured because the Japanese managers and the union couldn't get along. I feel the issue was more about work rules than money. If you noticed after that experiment Mich didn't get another Japanese manufacturing facility, R&D yes, manufacturing no. I use to laugh when in the 80's and 90's people wondered if Toyota or some other Japanese auto company would put a manufacturing plant in Mich. People were hoping they would I knew they wouldn't and they[[the Japanese) put that out as not wanting to offend the folks in Mich. So while I don't necessarily want to see Mich becoming a RTW state the unions need to change some of their practices with an understanding that the needs of the 30's 40's and 50's aren't the same as the needs today.

**noise** · December-06-12, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by jerrytimes

Why not? Why wouldn't the company pay you differently? The wages that the union negotiates are for their members. The company can pay you what they want to offer you and it will be up to you if you accept it.

Where I work currently, there are a few offices in the country that have union labor, some that don't. The employees and paid differently and have different benefits.

This is part of the problem: an uninformed citizenry.

I'd recommend reading up on RTW before taking a stance.

JVB · December-06-12, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by noise

This is part of the problem: an uninformed citizenry.

I'd recommend reading up on RTW before taking a stance.

No, actually he is correct. I worked in a plant that had union [[UAW) and non-union workers in different shops and the non-unions guys had a separate pay scale and different benefit packages. They actually made more than the union guys which was funny.

The one union shop was separated by a door from one of the union shops and the union guys weren't allowed to enter the non-union shop [[union rules), but the non-union guys could enter the union shop [[they weren't allowed to work, but they could drive a hilo through). Having union and non-union shops so close together, managed by the same supervisors, and working on the same stuff made it very apparent just how pointless unions are nowadays.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · December-06-12, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by JVB

No, actually he is correct. I worked in a plant that had union [[UAW) and non-union workers in different shops and the non-unions guys had a separate pay scale and different benefit packages. They actually made more than the union guys which was funny.

The one union shop was separated by a door from one of the union shops and the union guys weren't allowed to enter the non-union shop [[union rules), but the non-union guys could enter the union shop [[they weren't allowed to work, but they could drive a hilo through). Having union and non-union shops so close together, managed by the same supervisors, and working on the same stuff made it very apparent just how pointless unions are nowadays.

Show me a comparison that non-union workers make more than union. I believe it's the opposite, that's why most companies don't want to set up shop in unionized states, they all are south of the Mason-Dixon line. JerryTimes is right. Non-union workers get paid what the company feels they are worth [[which is usually peanuts) with no bargaining power whatsoever. Take it or leave it. RTW opens the door for the continued declassification of the middle class.