Why did John Engler kill DARTA?

[brizee]

Topic title is pretty self explanatory.

I've been looking for news articles that explain both it and the 23 other attempts, to find out when, and who introduced them. who voted for/against etc.

I can't find anything other than light mentions. I remember hearing/reading somewhere it was some sort of political revenge, but I can't confirm.

I was just graduating high school when he left. My family are all[[father brother mother and both sisters) lifelong Detroit residents, and I've never heard his name associated with anything positive. But that's not what this thread is about!

What reason did an outgoing governor have for vetoing the legislation?

[corktownyuppie]

Topic title is pretty self explanatory.

I've been looking for news articles that explain both it and the 23 other attempts, to find out when, and who introduced them. who voted for/against etc.

I can't find anything other than light mentions. I remember hearing/reading somewhere it was some sort of political revenge, but I can't confirm.

I was just graduating high school when he left. My family are all[[father brother mother and both sisters) lifelong Detroit residents, and I've never heard his name associated with anything positive. But that's not what this thread is about!

What reason did an outgoing governor have for vetoing the legislation?

For the record, I totally disagreed with Engler's veto, and I know thousands of people were infuriated after 3+ years in the making to get all the way to the governor's desk.

This is from the Metro Times:
http://www2.metrotimes.com/culture/story.asp?id=4455

The basis for Engler’s veto was the failure of the state Senate to pass his eleventh-hour proposal to create up to 15 new charter schools in Detroit. In a baffling quid pro quo that must exist solely in a lonely corner of the ex-governor’s mind, the failure to pass the charter school bill obviously mandated a veto on the transit bill.

I know that "quid pro quo" is a way of life in politics, but who knows what was really going on in the backrooms. Whatever it was, Engler must have been really, really, pissed. Vetoing DARTA after a bipartisan effort to get it all the way through the process was a pretty dick thing to do.

[Honky Tonk]

It looks like, according to this article, that there was a court battle, DARTA supporters lost, and would have had a hard time with funding.

http://www.michigandaily.com/content/darta-delayed

[bc_n_dtown]

It looks like, according to this article, that there was a court battle, DARTA supporters lost, and would have had a hard time with funding.

http://www.michigandaily.com/content/darta-delayed

This was a different DARTA plan. The original DARTA bill that was vetoed by our former good-for-nothing governor Engler was killed [[I believe) on his last day in office [[Dec 31, 2002), while this DARTA plan [[formed later in 2003) was put together by former mayor Kilpatrick and others who tried to go through the back door. It was challenged in the courts by a couple of DDOT unions and was overturned. Killing regional transit and closing mental health facilities were two of the legacies Engler left us, and we're still paying for both today.

[Honky Tonk]

Thanx for the correction.

[313WX]

Killing regional transit and closing mental health facilities were two of the legacies Engler left us, and we're still paying for both today.

Don't forget the lifting of the residency requiremen [[which is what truly destrpyed the few good working class neighborhoods left in Detroit), that 1998 revenue sharing agreement Detroit got screwed on and how his meddling in DPS left it worse off financially.

[Honky Tonk]

Don't forget the lifting of the residency requiremen [[which is what truly destrpyed the few good working class neighborhoods left in Detroit), that 1998 revenue sharing agreement Detroit got screwed on and how his meddling in DPS left it worse off financially.

Let me ask you, did the State make the cops & firemen leave by force? If not, why would they leave their wonderful homes?

[brizee]

This was a different DARTA plan. The original DARTA bill that was vetoed by our former good-for-nothing governor Engler was killed [[I believe) on his last day in office [[Dec 31, 2002), while this DARTA plan [[formed later in 2003) was put together by former mayor Kilpatrick and others who tried to go through the back door. It was challenged in the courts by a couple of DDOT unions and was overturned. Killing regional transit and closing mental health facilities were two of the legacies Engler left us, and we're still paying for both today.

Killing residency. That was another one of his gifts.

That's one of the things I heard when his name came up. My mother and sister are both nurses and had no positivity for him.

Reading all of this together, what was this guy's end game?

It's enough to make one drop a vulgar word or two.

[Motor City Sam]

Don't forget the lifting of the residency requiremen [[which is what truly destrpyed the few good working class neighborhoods left in Detroit), that 1998 revenue sharing agreement Detroit got screwed on and how his meddling in DPS left it worse off financially.

Along with abolishing Recorder's Court, which was cited regularly for being one of the most efficient courts in the country.

[EastsideAl]

It's interesting that Engler's campaign against the City of Detroit went right to the end of his term, long after he had to use us as a focus of fear and anger to whip up voters outstate and in the 'burbs

[Dexlin]

It was already said, but he did it out of sheer pettiness. Whatever anyone ever thought of Engler, good or bad, most people agreed that he could be epically petty and surly. His veto of DARTA didn't have anything to do with DARTA; it was a last "f%ck you" on his way out of office. He wasn't the most mature man you could ever meet. lol

[brizee]

Does anyone happen to have or know where to find the vote breakdowns for, I guess the last 5 attempts at an RTA? I'd just like to see if any yays/nays are still with the board.

It was already said, but he did it out of sheer pettiness. Whatever anyone ever thought of Engler, good or bad, most people agreed that he could be epically petty and surly. His veto of DARTA didn't have anything to do with DARTA; it was a last "f%ck you" on his way out of office. He wasn't the most mature man you could ever meet. lol

That just sounds so damn irresponsible. Reading everything in this thread he really does sound like a disaster.

BUt he obviously had his fans. Elected three times, and he's one of the names you read in the shitty little comments of political news stories, talking about "the grownups".

[Wesley Mouch]

Killing residency. That was another one of his gifts.

That's one of the things I heard when his name came up. My mother and sister are both nurses and had no positivity for him.

Reading all of this together, what was this guy's end game?

It's enough to make one drop a vulgar word or two.

Gov. Engler had a different vision for the future of Detroit and Michigan than most of the posters here.

I don't agree with all of his actions, but I don't think it helps to paint him as evil. He was simply opinionated.

His actions hardly killed Detroit. In fact, I think the 'status quoer' won the battle. For the most part, Detroit has created its own destiny. The results speak for themselves.

OK now, go ahead a tell us all how it was Engler's fault -- and then Snyder. It'll make you feel better.

[brizee]

Gov. Engler had a different vision for the future of Detroit and Michigan than most of the posters here.

I don't agree with all of his actions, but I don't think it helps to paint him as evil. He was simply opinionated.

His actions hardly killed Detroit. In fact, I think the 'status quoer' won the battle. For the most part, Detroit has created its own destiny. The results speak for themselves.

OK now, go ahead a tell us all how it was Engler's fault -- and then Snyder. It'll make you feel better.

Alot of your posts are passive aggressive bullshit. I went out of my way to be fair and nonjudgemental and you still throw up a strawman.

But that's not what this thread is about.

What was his very different vision for this city/state?

Because the results most certainly speak for themselves.

[Wesley Mouch]

Alot of your posts are passive aggressive bullshit. I went out of my way to be fair and nonjudgemental and you still throw up a strawman....

Its hell being a minority on this forum, but passively expressing my aggression helps.

[Gistok]

Gov. Engler had a different vision for the future of Detroit and Michigan than most of the posters here.

I don't agree with all of his actions, but I don't think it helps to paint him as evil. He was simply opinionated.

His actions hardly killed Detroit. In fact, I think the 'status quoer' won the battle. For the most part, Detroit has created its own destiny. The results speak for themselves.

OK now, go ahead a tell us all how it was Engler's fault -- and then Snyder. It'll make you feel better.

Detroit was in serious trouble with or without Engler... but his elimination of residency requirements meant that the last vestiges of middle class stable neighborhoods, called "Copper Canyons"... removed the underpinnings of some semblance of stability that those neighborhoods had. Since Engler, the last of the middle class housing stock in the city is falling prey to demolition and neglect. Granted the mortgage meltdown did a great deal of harm to those areas, but that combined with Engler's actions were the final nail in the coffins of all but the more affluent housing stock in the city [[besides the enthic enclave of SW Detroit and Corktown).

The only good thing that Engler did for the city [[that I recall) was the decision to move all state employees within the city to Cadillac Centre [[former GM HQ).

[Honky Tonk]

Detroit was in serious trouble with or without Engler... but his elimination of residency requirements meant that the last vestiges of middle class stable neighborhoods, called "Copper Canyons"... removed the underpinnings of some semblance of stability that those neighborhoods had. Since Engler, the last of the middle class housing stock in the city is falling prey to demolition and neglect. Granted the mortgage meltdown did a great deal of harm to those areas, but that combined with Engler's actions were the final nail in the coffins of all but the more affluent housing stock in the city [[besides the enthic enclave of SW Detroit and Corktown).

The only good thing that Engler did for the city [[that I recall) was the decision to move all state employees within the city to Cadillac Centre [[former GM HQ).

Again, the fact that everyone took off as soon as they were set free, says a lot about living in Detroit.

[brizee]

Again, the fact that everyone took off as soon as they were set free, says a lot about living in Detroit.

Does anyone happen to have access to the actual language of the bills that would have become DARTA?

It's all water under the bridge now, but I'd like to know what differing vision the state/city had for modes/financing back then.

The idea that Detroit/Michigan just sat with a thumb up its butt for ten years is just mindblowing.

[Detroitnerd]

The idea that Detroit/Michigan just sat with a thumb up its butt for ten years is just mindblowing.

Not really. Michiganders love sitting with a thumb up their butts.

Actually, so many Michiganders, especially outtstaters, love socking it to Detroit. They can't get enough of it. Call killing DARTA petty, call it regressive. For haters of Detroit, it must have felt like being pardoned by the governor at 11 minutes to midnight. Take that, you filthy city-dwellers!

As to the outstate mentality, here's how I figure it: In their minds, they are the hardworking people who are paying taxes to the state, and making the state economy go by playing Keno at the tavern and buying a new issue of Great Lakes Pilot to throw on the crapper. In their minds, they are a maelstrom of economic activity, buying propane, hiring honeydippers, shopping at Big Lots, eating at Ponderosa. God's Country, yes, but in their minds a white-hot economic engine keeping the state in the black.

To them, what threatens that wonderful economic machine is the city of Detroit, which sucks down their hard-earned resources, what with all those welfare mothers piling their dozens of children into late-model Cadillacs and driving down to the welfare office to ask for more money every day. And if it weren't enough that those hardworking folks out in God's Country paid for those Cadillacs, those children, their fine home, and all that, now they want our precious state government involved in getting a mass transit system for them? How selfish! Those resource-sucking non-working baby-making parasites want the Atlases of Alpena, the Titans of Tuscola, the Goliaths of Gaylord to somehow shoulder these burdens? Outrageous!

Of course, this is all ridiculous. If outstate Michigan were to somehow secede from the four-county area of metro Detroit, it might not be quite the paradise they imagine.

[iheartthed]

Gov. Engler had a different vision for the future of Detroit and Michigan than most of the posters here.

I don't agree with all of his actions, but I don't think it helps to paint him as evil. He was simply opinionated.

His actions hardly killed Detroit. In fact, I think the 'status quoer' won the battle. For the most part, Detroit has created its own destiny. The results speak for themselves.

OK now, go ahead a tell us all how it was Engler's fault -- and then Snyder. It'll make you feel better.

He didn't leave Michigan in great shape. The state itself started into the most severe economic decline in its entire history during his governorship. Michigan was the only state in the country to lose population during the decade when he left office. And IIRC, he left the Granholm administration some pretty big budget problems to deal with when she took office.

[townonenorth]

Of course, this is all ridiculous. If outstate Michigan were to somehow secede from the four-county area of metro Detroit, it might not be quite the paradise they imagine.

Only if the 4 county area were to attach itself to Ontario.

But really, there's gobs of economic activity outstate, in plenty of mid sized cities. They may miss three or four counties, but not one, in its present state.

[Wesley Mouch]

He didn't leave Michigan in great shape. The state itself started into the most severe economic decline in its entire history during his governorship. Michigan was the only state in the country to lose population during the decade when he left office. And IIRC, he left the Granholm administration some pretty big budget problems to deal with when she took office.

And that economic decline was all about State actions, eh? I didn't know the State was so all-powerful. Everything else in Michigan was great -- too bad Engler was in office. He brought everything down.

[iheartthed]

And that economic decline was all about State actions, eh? I didn't know the State was so all-powerful. Everything else in Michigan was great -- too bad Engler was in office. He brought everything down.

Was Detroit's decline all about Detroit actions?

[Wesley Mouch]

Was Detroit's decline all about Detroit actions?

It was the perfect economic storm.

Batten down the hatches might have been better advised than every man for themselves.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Snyder is John Engler Jr.