Old DC power to Music Hall theater?

[thomprod]

I worked briefly on the stage crew for Michigan Opera Theatre when they re-opened the Music Hall in November 1971 and again in the Fall of 1972. I remember that the old, exisiting stage lighting board ran on DC power, still supplied to the building by Detroit Edison. Many power outlets in the building provided only DC power and had to be marked "no motors". Was this a widespread practice in Detroit theaters? Why was this considered more economical or efficient than AC power? Does anyone have knowledge of how widespread the DC power distribution in the downtown area was and when it ended?

[Scottathew]

Fascinating. I can find no mention on the interwebs about this. I find it hard to believe that DTE would be providing DC to a building.

[MikeM]

The forerunner to the Detroit Edison Company was established as a franchise using the Edison patent, which was for a direct current lighting system. Alternating current proved more efficient for long distance transmission and soon overtook direct current in consumer use out of necessity. As Edison's service area expanded outside of the central business district, new areas were served by AC exclusively. Starting in 1930, Detroit Edsion started offering customers in the "direct current district" the choice of AC or DC service. Most chose AC. From what I've read, 1962 was the final year Detroit Edison provided direct current service downtown. Perhaps businesses such as theaters or hotels which had DC equipment found it more economical to install converters to power the DC equipment rather replace it all with AC equipment?

A map of the DC service area of Detroit:

[gnome]

Masonic temple also has DC outlets. Theatrical lights like brutes run off of DC. HMIs use AC as do other modern lighting sources. The reason DC was so popular with the theater and film crowd is because it is a thousand times safer than AC.

[Honky Tonk]

DETROIT! We're AC/DC!

[Wesley Mouch]

Masonic temple also has DC outlets. Theatrical lights like brutes run off of DC. HMIs use AC as do other modern lighting sources. The reason DC was so popular with the theater and film crowd is because it is a thousand times safer than AC.

Tell us what you really think, Mr. Edison.

[Jimaz]

The War of Currents was fought between Edison and Westinghouse.

[Edison] also tried to popularize the term for being electrocuted as being "Westinghoused." Years after DC had lost the "war of the currents," in 1903, his film crew made a movie of the electrocution with high voltage AC, supervised by Edison employees, of Topsy, a Coney Island circus elephant which had recently killed three men.

[Detroitnerd]

It may just have been that they didn't have a lot of motors and saw no reason to make the switch. I can't really think of a lot of things in a classic theater that require motors. Even the sets and backgrounds were balanced on sandbags and moved up and down by ropes and pulleys.

[Wesley Mouch]

Masonic temple also has DC outlets. Theatrical lights like brutes run off of DC. HMIs use AC as do other modern lighting sources. The reason DC was so popular with the theater and film crowd is because it is a thousand times safer than AC.

Masonic was built with a self-contained power plant. Coal chute and transport, boilers, and DC generators. They didn't need the electric company nor gas company.

At some point, they removed the generators, connected to Edison AC service, and installed rectifiers to provide DC where needed. Most of the building lighting is on AC power. Most of the electrical motors remain DC.

There are dozens and dozens of variable speed DC fan motors still in service. When they converted to Edison service, there was no economical way to convert the motors to variable speed at that time. Even today, changing those motors would be expensive. First, the wiring would likely need to be changed. Large horsepower AC motors run on 3-wire [[phase) AC. The DC system was 2-wire. Second, you need to go to each motor and replace it. Some are located in really difficult places. It could be done.

[mauser]

BTW: Westinghouse = Nikola Tesla. Alternating Current [[invented by Tesla) is the standard because it is far superior to Edisons technology.

[Scottathew]

This is a good read about Tesla and Edison: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

[Gistok]

It may just have been that they didn't have a lot of motors and saw no reason to make the switch. I can't really think of a lot of things in a classic theater that require motors. Even the sets and backgrounds were balanced on sandbags and moved up and down by ropes and pulleys.

DN, you would be surprised... I know I was when I had a private [[Preservation Wayne) tour of basement level of the Fox Theatre.... it's a virtual factory down there of equipment and motors and blowers, etc. They even need sump pumps to keep the basements and sub-basements dry. Most downtown buildings [[such as abandoned ones) get flooded with water if not constantly maintained.

I've even been on a private tour of the basement of the former Michigan Theatre, where among the few things still running are the sub-basement sump pumps.

And really big theatres such as the Fox and Michigan have/had enough capacity to generate power to tens of thousands of homes.

[ndavies]

BTW: Westinghouse = Nikola Tesla. Alternating Current [[invented by Tesla) is the standard because it is far superior to Edisons technology.

This is total BS. Neither is superior to the other. Both have applications they excel at.

The problem with DC at the turn of the century was, You need higher Voltages for efficient long distance electrical transmission. With AC all you need to step up the voltage is a transfomer. Stepping DC voltage up or down requires active circuitry. Cheap DC to DC voltage converters didn't come along until long after the AC/DC battle was settled.

Every Modern electronic Devices runs on DC. Every electronic appliance you own has an AC to DC convertor [[Usually an HBridge Diode network.)attached to or built into it.

[Wesley Mouch]

DN, you would be surprised... I know I was when I had a private [[Preservation Wayne) tour of basement level of the Fox Theatre.... it's a virtual factory down there of equipment and motors and blowers, etc. They even need sump pumps to keep the basements and sub-basements dry. Most downtown buildings [[such as abandoned ones) get flooded with water if not constantly maintained.

I've even been on a private tour of the basement of the former Michigan Theatre, where among the few things still running are the sub-basement sump pumps.

And really big theatres such as the Fox and Michigan have/had enough capacity to generate power to tens of thousands of homes.

Fox Complex = approx. 1,800Kw peak. Typical home a few Kw. Fox doesn't use electric air-conditioning -- its steam powered. Otherwise they might be more like 2.5Mw

[Wesley Mouch]

BTW: Westinghouse = Nikola Tesla. Alternating Current [[invented by Tesla) is the standard because it is far superior to Edisons technology.

Agree with other poster... This is not true.

AC is superior as regards transmission and distribution. But at point of use, DC is far better. Most electrical devices must convert AC to DC for actual use. TV, Computer, etc. This is quite wasteful. In 1930, there were few devices that actually used DC internally. Today, many devices do. And they each must have a AC/DC converter inside sucking 'phantom power'. They're getting better -- but I wouldn't be surprised to see some DC distribution in new homes -- especially as we see more LEDs in lighting -- and not only in the shape of light bulbs -- but all kinds of ways. Think linear bulbs for example. Or flat sheets. Or... wearable.

[Detroitnerd]

Everybody likes to pick on Edison these days and praise Tesla instead, but Edison created the template for distribution of electricity to users. The 100-volt home electrical system was designed working backward from the needs of his high-resistance electric light. In other words, Edison didn't just create an electric light and offer it to the world. He designed the voltage settings and home wiring, the distribution system and the power plant to energize it. Really an ambitious undertaking when you consider it all. He knew that it had to be marketable, and for it to be marketable there had to be not just a lamp but home wiring, standard voltages, and neighborhood power plants.

Tesla's contribution was effective at centralizing power plants, but much of the way we use electricity in the home is still modeled on the Edison approach.

Edison wasn't perfect, but he deserves his due.

[Wesley Mouch]

Everybody likes to pick on Edison these days and praise Tesla instead, but ...
Edison wasn't perfect, but he deserves his due.

Very true. I think the 60's culture and our misuigded 'multi-cultural' obsession likes the outsider, slavic maniac-inventor more than the home-grown American businessman-inventor.

Edison = Romney
Tesla = Obama

All of them 'power' mad.

[townonenorth]

Fox Complex = approx. 1,800Kw peak. Typical home a few Kw. Fox doesn't use electric air-conditioning -- its steam powered. Otherwise they might be more like 2.5Mw

No steam powered AC at the Fox, sorry. Steam heating only, but the AC is run by huge electrically powered chillers and water which acts as the cooling medium. I was impressed by the air draw from beneath the main floor which travels through tunnels beneath the building, then up and out. Same system used since time began, or at least the Fox.

Now IF they had the steam plant generating electricity to power the chillers in the basement, that would be a great use, not to mention probably a huge cost savings overall. But, they probably are Detroit Lighting customers anyway, so redundant.

[56packman]

The Fox had Lithium Bromide absorption air conditioning before the 1988 restoration, it was dead, then after--they purchased two new old stock units manufactured in the early 1960s, this required taking out the roof above the south store fronts and a thick concrete floor below to gain crane access to the sub-terranean engine room. That system used steam to make cold. The engineers from a well-known HVAC company [[multi-national, fortune 500) did not want to listen to local engineers who calculated that the system would not be able to keep up with human body-created heat [[you put 5000 bodies in a space, it heats up) and they eschewed local recommendations to re-create what 1920s engineers knew--that running the refigeration plant constantly and having an "energy bank" tank of chilled water was the way to go. After two seasons with some hot houses a local HVAC contractor was hired and the 1928 idea was reimplemented with complete success. The replacement absorption machines have since died and an external unit is now providing chilled water, the tank [[10' x 10' x 10') is still very much in use. The Lithium Bromide solution is extremely caustic, and the operators have to maintain an absolute vacuum in order for the solution to not eat the internal piping.
I was in the Madison theatre in 1979, they had large rectifiers in the basement to supply DC current to the many electric motors [[that had been there since 1917 and still worked wonderfully) in that building.

[Gistok]

Thanks for the details 56packman!

Most people don't realize that the old movie palaces were among the most complicated and advanced buildings of their time. The tremendous amount of energy needed not only to handle interior spaces, but also the exterior Marquee, vertical blade and rooftop signs required a lot of energy as well. Then there was the ventilation [[not just cooling)... with blowers that would bring fresh air in enormous quantities to these vast spaces.

The Detroit Fox, for example, is so vast, that the interior height in the auditorium is the same height as the Nave to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris [[105 ft.). It also "claims" to have the largest clear span balcony in the world. And when they say "acres of seating".... that was no exaggeration.

And these buildings were built to last... many a movie palace demolition has brought more than one demo firm to bankruptcy because they were often so difficult to tear down [[sometimes the actual metal support beams were much thicker than original blueprints would show).

[rb336]

Everybody likes to pick on Edison these days and praise Tesla instead, but Edison created the template for distribution of electricity to users. The 100-volt home electrical system was designed working backward from the needs of his high-resistance electric light. In other words, Edison didn't just create an electric light and offer it to the world. He designed the voltage settings and home wiring, the distribution system and the power plant to energize it. Really an ambitious undertaking when you consider it all. He knew that it had to be marketable, and for it to be marketable there had to be not just a lamp but home wiring, standard voltages, and neighborhood power plants.

Tesla's contribution was effective at centralizing power plants, but much of the way we use electricity in the home is still modeled on the Edison approach.

Edison wasn't perfect, but he deserves his due.

Edison was a thief who had spies watching competitors' labs, and jumping their patents, but mostly he was a credit thief. "His" light bulb had actually been invented by Henry Woodward. He bought the patent then claimed he invented it. Similar actions happened with his motion picture and phonograph patents. Further, he would make minor changes to a device, then claim the original inventor had stolen his patent. Since he had more money and influence than God back in those days, he could push his rivals into bankruptcy unless they settled by selling him their patents at a paltry price.

[Hamtragedy]

The Willis Power Plant, on Willis btw. Woodward and Cass, in addition to providing steam, provided DC power to the streetcar system.

DC is still currently used to run most elevators.