Packard Plant owner to walk away from abandoned ruins

[Gistok]

WHOA!!! What's with all the hate here???

I just did some snooping around.... what is this the 'Battle of the Blogs" being fought here???

Since "Google is your friend".... I just did some checking....

Ryan Southen is probably the best photographer who posts on this forum....

NEVER once in my 13 years of posting here have I EVER heard Southen ONCE refer or link to his pro Photography webpage. He has shared with us his love of photography at a younger age, and that later transformed into a business... but he has NEVER Spammed this site. He has however shown DYESers many of his Flickr images [[from perspectives I had never seen before) of many of downtown Detroit [[my favorite is his "GOTHAM CITY" b/w image of the brooding Book Tower, FYI).

On the Google search the first 2 searches I found were ones that I posted in 2 old [[non-related) DYES links... one to Ryan's Flickr page [[the DYES topic was rooftops) about the Broderick Tower [[the pic where his feet were dangling and him mom was going to kill him if she saw that image), and the other was one of his images of the inside of the United Artists Theatre... [[on a DYES theatres link) since I'm the theatre lover on this forum. But I could find NO posts where Southen touted his own website.

I did notice Southen complain in several posts about the SHAMELESS plugs that Strong was doing by "incessantly" starting insipid threads and then plugging his webpages, donations for his documentary, as well as the sale of related items.

Badbrains... [[God your alias makes it so easy...) you almost make it sound like your a friend of Strong. If not in your short time on this forum, perhaps you could point out WHERE exactly that Southen has EVER posted any ads or plugs for his pro Photography business.... I'm interested where you came up with that and am looking forward to a DYES link on it....

Mauser.... you've been here a long time... why do you disparage Ryan [[vis-a-vis your comments about Stromberg2's defense of Southen?).

I've seen your DetroitFunk site, and you do some really good work and show some spectacular photos. So why do you make it sound like you don't like him? Is it photography envy, or what.... you've been here long enough....

Also, I've never met Ryan Southen... nor have I ever done more than link to one of his pics on this forum to show an interesting angle that he took a picture of, or from a building that he "got into".

But in all the years that I've been on here, he's NEVER posted anything negative... until Strong started shamelessly plug his site and make donation requests.

When things around here don't pass the smell test... there's usually a good reason....

P.S. Neavling... I had never been to that site before... probably because I find the Packard Plant topics as "beating a dead horse"... but I will check it out once in a while... to make my own opinion about it... while it didn't tell me a whole lot, I found that the owner throwing in the proverbial towel an interesting point.... and Badbrains... your feelings on why you never got a response to the other thread... don't you think that clouds your judgement just a little on Neavling's article over there? Because your comments about Ryan Southen here are way off base...

[Packman41]

Holy shit. Can you post a couple links on that, I've never heard that story. How could they begin demolition without seizing the property?

How could they start demolition before they owned it???

This is because the CofD screwed up as usual. Their “ace” legal department THOUGHT they got it back for unpaid taxes and failed to do a simple title search to determine who exactly owned the site. So they stole his assets and started to tear down the buildings.

Why did the City of Detroit stop demolition?

Because the CofD lost in court when sued by Cristini.

But, I’ve told this story here before.

Look at my post [[#43) from August 12, 2012 here:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...460#post337460

Here is part of that post that you need to read and understand with a quote I saved from a Detroit Free Press article:

“In the late 1990s, the plant had scores of rent- paying tenants who stored their cars and boats there, operated small businesses and staged paintball war games inside the tattered warren of buildings that straddle East Grand Boulevard.

It was also a time when the city believed it had title to the property [[edit: they did NOT) through foreclosure for unpaid taxes. The state, meanwhile, planned to tear down the plant and remove hundreds of thousands of tires.

Cristini was collecting rents and managing the property. The city tried to evict him that fall, but he holed up inside while the city's gang squad stood guard.

In 1999, Cristini and his lawyers sued the city, saying it failed to give notice to mortgage holders when the city sought to foreclose on the property. Cristini's lawyers thwarted the state's demolition plans and launched what would become a decade-long legal battle.”

I also said:
Cristini has won in court and at every appeal process. It has been rumored that an arbitrator sided with him and thought the CofD owed him a multi-million dollar settlement for illegally seizing his property.

So when Cristini’s real estate tax bill comes due he probably turns around and tells the CofD to “take it off the money YOU owe me.”

Most of the links I gave are now removed from the Internet and I can only save so much. But you still might find something here:
http://www.propertytaxrights.com/ind...=32&Itemid=107

[Richard]

I highly doubt he is going to walk away as the heading suggests ,more so of a back off threat .

The legal description of the property is over 100 pages long because it was originally assembled from multiple properties not as one large piece,that is a lot of parcels to foreclose on piece by piece.

The city would have to hand the proceedings over to the county and contrary to most beliefs there is not enough economically scrap metal in the plant after extraction costs otherwise it would have probably been down long ago,so if the city wants it down it will be on their dime,no fed funds for that and if they are pressing that hard it would be because maybe somebody wants to plant trees on it so the city can foot a $20.000.000 bill to collect $200,000 ,have fun with that one.I would think street lights ,fire and police would have a bit more priority.

Interesting collection of commercial property owners in Detroit ,you take properties like Packard,University Club,The Hotel C,Wurlitzer etc.,they acquire these properties thinking that they are sitting on a gold mine but forgetting about just maybe if anybody was interested locally they probably would have been sold long ago,so they sit on them and they get scrapped,burned,molested to the point where it becomes more feasible to purchase in another state where the purchase costs may be higher but the time monies spent in rehab and being able to open the doors with out spending millions in holding costs makes a big difference,its a big country out there lots of empty buildings to choose from.

Then you get things like ,well do to the scope of your project I think adding another 400k to the purchase price is justifiable,really? Or you as the buyer needs to pay for the title search up front,seems to me if you are selling something it would be your responsibility to ensure clear title before listing. Or that is the way it works elsewhere,so in the meantime the properties sit and fall apart while reasonable offers are rejected and then in the end nobody wins,the property gets demolished at the taxpayers expense,the city losses some more of its binding history,if you want a gold mine they are for sale on ebay but in the end a burned,scrapped,derelict building is what it is.

[Bad Brains]

Holy shit. Can you post a couple links on that, I've never heard that story. How could they begin demolition without seizing the property?

Packman is correct.

Not a personal attack, but I'm amazed at how many people here don't know this story. I always thought it was common information. The city is completely and directly responsible for the condition the Packard Plant is in today. That's why I'm amazed at people who attack the owner. Not speaking of his other issues and problems, but with the Packard he did nothing wrong. Personally I hope he sues the city and wins.

[Bad Brains]

NEVER once in my 13 years of posting here have I EVER heard Southen ONCE refer or link to his pro Photography webpage. He has shared with us his love of photography at a younger age, and that later transformed into a business... but he has NEVER Spammed this site. He has however shown DYESers many of his Flickr images [[from perspectives I had never seen before) of many of downtown Detroit [[my favorite is his "GOTHAM CITY" b/w image of the brooding Book Tower, FYI).

Badbrains... [[God your alias makes it so easy...) you almost make it sound like your a friend of Strong. If not in your short time on this forum, perhaps you could point out WHERE exactly that Southen has EVER posted any ads or plugs for his pro Photography business.... I'm interested where you came up with that and am looking forward to a DYES link on it....

Southen has posted links in many threads linking to his work. Maybe he posted more regularly a while back, but I've only seen him on here posting photos. I guess I wouldn't go as far as to say he "SPAMS", but he does sort of slip or plug his work when he see's an opportunity. I don't know who Strong is, and I wouldn't even begin to know where to start looking for examples. It's not that important I guess.

[LeannaM]

I'm not sure what the city gains by taking over the Packard plant. It sounds like they are also just going to let it fall apart naturally.

[Bad Brains]

Neavling, do you proof-read your articles before you post them? Where do you get some of your information? Let's analyze your recent Packard scrapping article:

"It was just another lawless day at the sprawling ruins of the Packard Plant in Detroit, where scrappers have become alarmingly more daring and audacious as police have virtually ignored an organized scrapping operation that has sprung up."

Sprung up? Where have you been the past decade or so?

"Scrappers are beginning to tear down large commercial buildings with backhoes, cutting steel beams with loud, high-powered saws and hauling heaps of recyclable metal in overflowing pickup trucks to nearby scrapyards."

Beginning? Again, where have you been? [[Also, these are industrial buildings, not commercial.)
Yes, industrial equipment is loud, you don't need to point that out.

"The Motor City Muckraker spent the past four months monitoring and interviewing the illegal operation as scrappers demolished parts of the asbestos-laden plant on the east side"

Umm, what?

"On a recent afternoon, Robert Walker, a former Detroit cop, casually packed his pickup truck with scrap metals that had fallen to the ground after a brazen backhoe operator razed the midsection of an industrial building a day earlier.

“Today we are in an economic crisis, and people are resorting to scrapping,” Walker told me. “I’m sure the police are getting some direct orders not to bother us. We’re just regular citizens trying to get by."

Why do I have a feeling he didn't really say this? [[Maybe he did, who knows....?)
Now they are industrial buildings? Just above you said they were commercial?

"Controversial Packard owner Dominic Cristini said he’s tired of the city looking the other way as people destroy the plant. He said police have ignored his complaints about arsons and scrapping.

“What’s the sense of having laws if you don’t enforce them?” asked Cristini, who owes about $750,00o in delinquent taxes. “Police do nothing. I’m sick of it.”

While you just admitted you spent the last 4 months trespassing on his property?
You used the letter "o" as the last digit of your money figure. Typos happen, just pointing it out.

"The top brass at the Detroit Police Department said they were unaware of the scrapping until contacted by the Motor City Muckraker on Monday. Within a half hour of the call, a Detroit cop arrived at the Packard and ticketed a pair of scrappers."

Did you seriously say the police had no idea there was scrapping going on until YOU brought it to their attention, and then within a half-hour of YOUR call started issuing tickets? Sorry, but no.
Didn't you just say the owner himself has called the police over the scrapping taking place?

"Within a few hours of the tickets, a lone man in a white pickup stopped at the Packard and fished metal scraps from the bottom of a recently leveled building to trade his findings for cash at a nearby scrapyard."

You mean scrappers take their metal to a scrapyard for cash? How long did it take you to investigate this fact?

"Long before the Packard became a haven for scrappers and adventurers, workers churned out luxury cars in one of the world’s largest manufacturing plants from 1903 to 1956. Famed architect Albert Kahn designed the concrete complex, which would eventually include dozens of buildings and 3.5-million square feet of industrial space."

All common knowledge. Is there a reason why this blurb randomly appears in this article?

"Smaller shops replaced the Packard in the 1950s, but tenants slowly disappeared, leaving the plant virtually empty and open to trespass."

FALSE. As discussed in this thread, remaining tenants were forced out by the city in the late 90's. They didn't "slowly disappear".

"Interestingly, since the backhoe arrived two months ago, the Packard has not been on fire. But between July and August, the Packard was on fire 24 different days – all suspected arsons. Soon after flames loosened and broke up the concrete, scrappers removed metal from the rubble."

FALSE. There have been fires there on a regular basis as usual. On any given day there is probably a fire somewhere inside.
Yes, scrappers remove metal from rubble piles. That's why they set the fires.

"The fires were so frequent this summer that the fire department let the blazes burn unattended."

The fire department has been letting the fires burn long before last summer. Again I must ask, where have you been?

"At night, the backhoe was left at the plant or parked across the street in an abandoned lot in plain sight"
4 sentences later
"At night, the backhoe rests in a nearby vacant lot."

"To cut up larger chunks of metal, some scrappers used powerful saws."

Yes, you also mentioned this at the beginning of the article.

I did this for constructive criticism purposes, so some of you need to relax.
I'm glad you're doing what you like, but you really need to take a look at the finished product. This is TERRIBLE work, especially from someone who was an alleged City Hall reporter for the Free Press. It appears as if you are just making things up and throwing whatever you can together in an attempt to form a coherent story.

To be honest, I question whether or not you really did interview Dominic Cristini [[or any of the people in the articles). If you did score an interview, the article linked in this thread doesn't really give us much of anything. You need to find an editor.

[Gistok]

I don't know who Strong is, and I wouldn't even begin to know where to start looking for examples. It's not that important I guess.

No biggie... but if you come across overly positive thread titles... you'll know it when you see it!

[reddog289]

I myself do remember a paintball place there, Denny and Eli did a show there once. But having read about, heard about, and seen the place.. The plant is toast. No WAY is it gonna be restored, fixed up , or anything otherwise. Leave it as an artsy ruin, or tear it down. Just another symbol of the former Detroit.

[casscorridor]

I myself do remember a paintball place there, Denny and Eli did a show there once. But having read about, heard about, and seen the place.. The plant is toast. No WAY is it gonna be restored, fixed up , or anything otherwise. Leave it as an artsy ruin, or tear it down. Just another symbol of the former Detroit.

Whatever the outcome, I just hope it's not demolished. Let it sit as one of the world's greatest monumental ruin, perhaps even containing it and offering sanctioned tours like a visit to the Roman Colosseum. Perhaps sections of the complex can be renovated and given a new purpose as housing or business. It would be a truly remarkable scene and quintessentially Detroit: gigantic Fordist industrial buildings in ruin juxtaposed upon contemporary re-purposing; an architectural representation of Detroit's history and the transition between Fordism, neo-liberalism and a future paradigm.

[Drexciya68]

Neavling, do you proof-read your articles before you post them? Where do you get some of your information? Let's analyze your recent Packard scrapping article:

"It was just another lawless day at the sprawling ruins of the Packard Plant in Detroit, where scrappers have become alarmingly more daring and audacious as police have virtually ignored an organized scrapping operation that has sprung up."

Sprung up? Where have you been the past decade or so?

"Scrappers are beginning to tear down large commercial buildings with backhoes, cutting steel beams with loud, high-powered saws and hauling heaps of recyclable metal in overflowing pickup trucks to nearby scrapyards."

Beginning? Again, where have you been? [[Also, these are industrial buildings, not commercial.)
Yes, industrial equipment is loud, you don't need to point that out.

"The Motor City Muckraker spent the past four months monitoring and interviewing the illegal operation as scrappers demolished parts of the asbestos-laden plant on the east side"

Umm, what?

"On a recent afternoon, Robert Walker, a former Detroit cop, casually packed his pickup truck with scrap metals that had fallen to the ground after a brazen backhoe operator razed the midsection of an industrial building a day earlier.

“Today we are in an economic crisis, and people are resorting to scrapping,” Walker told me. “I’m sure the police are getting some direct orders not to bother us. We’re just regular citizens trying to get by."

Why do I have a feeling he didn't really say this? [[Maybe he did, who knows....?)
Now they are industrial buildings? Just above you said they were commercial?

"Controversial Packard owner Dominic Cristini said he’s tired of the city looking the other way as people destroy the plant. He said police have ignored his complaints about arsons and scrapping.

“What’s the sense of having laws if you don’t enforce them?” asked Cristini, who owes about $750,00o in delinquent taxes. “Police do nothing. I’m sick of it.”

While you just admitted you spent the last 4 months trespassing on his property?
You used the letter "o" as the last digit of your money figure. Typos happen, just pointing it out.

"The top brass at the Detroit Police Department said they were unaware of the scrapping until contacted by the Motor City Muckraker on Monday. Within a half hour of the call, a Detroit cop arrived at the Packard and ticketed a pair of scrappers."

Did you seriously say the police had no idea there was scrapping going on until YOU brought it to their attention, and then within a half-hour of YOUR call started issuing tickets? Sorry, but no.
Didn't you just say the owner himself has called the police over the scrapping taking place?

"Within a few hours of the tickets, a lone man in a white pickup stopped at the Packard and fished metal scraps from the bottom of a recently leveled building to trade his findings for cash at a nearby scrapyard."

You mean scrappers take their metal to a scrapyard for cash? How long did it take you to investigate this fact?

"Long before the Packard became a haven for scrappers and adventurers, workers churned out luxury cars in one of the world’s largest manufacturing plants from 1903 to 1956. Famed architect Albert Kahn designed the concrete complex, which would eventually include dozens of buildings and 3.5-million square feet of industrial space."

All common knowledge. Is there a reason why this blurb randomly appears in this article?

"Smaller shops replaced the Packard in the 1950s, but tenants slowly disappeared, leaving the plant virtually empty and open to trespass."

FALSE. As discussed in this thread, remaining tenants were forced out by the city in the late 90's. They didn't "slowly disappear".

"Interestingly, since the backhoe arrived two months ago, the Packard has not been on fire. But between July and August, the Packard was on fire 24 different days – all suspected arsons. Soon after flames loosened and broke up the concrete, scrappers removed metal from the rubble."

FALSE. There have been fires there on a regular basis as usual. On any given day there is probably a fire somewhere inside.
Yes, scrappers remove metal from rubble piles. That's why they set the fires.

"The fires were so frequent this summer that the fire department let the blazes burn unattended."

The fire department has been letting the fires burn long before last summer. Again I must ask, where have you been?

"At night, the backhoe was left at the plant or parked across the street in an abandoned lot in plain sight"
4 sentences later
"At night, the backhoe rests in a nearby vacant lot."

"To cut up larger chunks of metal, some scrappers used powerful saws."

Yes, you also mentioned this at the beginning of the article.

I did this for constructive criticism purposes, so some of you need to relax.
I'm glad you're doing what you like, but you really need to take a look at the finished product. This is TERRIBLE work, especially from someone who was an alleged City Hall reporter for the Free Press. It appears as if you are just making things up and throwing whatever you can together in an attempt to form a coherent story.

To be honest, I question whether or not you really did interview Dominic Cristini [[or any of the people in the articles). If you did score an interview, the article linked in this thread doesn't really give us much of anything. You need to find an editor.

In all fairness, this Muckraker who may think he's some sort of super hero has only been in the city for a limited time. That's why I find the "Motor City" part of the name of that site as a bit ironic? It's [[website) obviously written by someone who wasn't born or grew up in Detroit? He seems to be clueless to what got Detroit to the point it's at now. No biggie. No one is making anyone click on their websites I guess.

I guess if you think you're doing it for the greater good it's ok to trespass and loiter on private property to take pics and snoop around? I thought that was stuff hipster kids did? Guess I'm getting old.

[mauser]

Okay people, everybody put on their listening ears and thinking caps - one more time: WAYNE COUNTY is the authority here, NOT THE CITY OF DETROIT !!!

You people need to get your heads out of your Detroit asses now and then and think about more than just the City. This is a county issue and as a county we sure as hell can deal with Packard.

http://www.freep.com/article/2012112...-Packard-Plant

[mauser]

WHOA!!! What's with all the hate here???

Mauser.... you've been here a long time... why do you disparage Ryan [[vis-a-vis your comments about Stromberg2's defense of Southen?).

I've seen your DetroitFunk site, and you do some really good work and show some spectacular photos. So why do you make it sound like you don't like him? Is it photography envy, or what.... you've been here long enough....
Also, I've never met Ryan Southen...

No "photo envy" here, im not actually into it enough to care like that.

I never "disparaged" Ryan, I just take exception with blanket statements about what everybody on the forum thinks of who or whatever.

I did meet Ryan and he was a prick. [[there, now he is "disparaged") I just went to his show to tell him his photos were nice. Whatever.

[Honky Tonk]

"The top brass at the Detroit Police Department said they were unaware of the scrapping until contacted by the Motor City Muckraker on Monday.

Did you seriously say the police had no idea there was scrapping going on until YOU brought it to their attention, and then within a half-hour of YOUR call started issuing tickets? Sorry, but no.
Didn't you just say the owner himself has called the police over the scrapping taking place?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You raise some very valid points about his writing, BB, but by the same token, maybe you ought to proof read your rants. Just sayin'....

[Bad Brains]

"The top brass at the Detroit Police Department said they were unaware of the scrapping until contacted by the Motor City Muckraker on Monday.

Did you seriously say the police had no idea there was scrapping going on until YOU brought it to their attention, and then within a half-hour of YOUR call started issuing tickets? Sorry, but no.
Didn't you just say the owner himself has called the police over the scrapping taking place?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You raise some very valid points about his writing, BB, but by the same token, maybe you ought to proof read your rants. Just sayin'....

Examples?

I also disagree. Judging from this writing, I highly doubt this is true. I could just as easily start a website and make up these sort of claims. Apparently someone out there will defend me.

No, I strongly don't believe the police SAID they were unaware of the scrapping. The scrapping has been going on for many years, with actual real media outlets reporting about it. I also don't believe within a half-hour of HIS call, they immediately began issuing tickets to scrappers. Several things seem off, including:
- He called the police while trespassing to report scrapping [[which has been going on for over a decade), then sat around for exactly one half-hour to watch scrappers get ticketed?
- Scrapping is an arrestable offense, is it not? Isn't that the same thing as larceny? If an officer rolls up and you have a truck full of stolen goods, when did they start simply issuing tickets?
- Why are people in trucks rolling up immediately after others have been "ticketed" to fill up their trucks with scraps left behind from the heavy machinery to take down to the scrapyard? Where did the police go?
- What did the police do about these heavy duty machines that are left in vacant lots nearby?
- He says he spent 4 months "monitoring and interviewing" this entire illegal operation. I also don't believe this. He offers no proof of this other than a few vague quotes from some people who may or may not even exist. He offers little or no insight as to whether or not these same people belong to this illegal operation [[that is apparently granting media access and interviews...)

[Lowell]

I find these attacks on Neavling excessive and petty. He is not hidden and is a well known former reporter from the Bay City Times and the Detroit Free Press, doing some ACTUAL journalism as opposed to those who do nothing more than sit on a forum anonymously lob bombs at those who are out trying to gather stories.

The term and concept of muckraking should tip one off to a sensationalist style. If you don't get that stop reading him. And don't expect him to respond.

To do trivial critiques of his stating commonly know facts, may prickle some who know them, but may be enlightening backstory to the other 95% of the world who doesn't.

sheesh!

In all fairness, this Muckraker who may think he's some sort of super hero has only been in the city for a limited time. That's why I find the "Motor City" part of the name of that site as a bit ironic? It's [[website) obviously written by someone who wasn't born or grew up in Detroit? He seems to be clueless to what got Detroit to the point it's at now. No biggie. No one is making anyone click on their websites I guess.

I guess if you think you're doing it for the greater good it's ok to trespass and loiter on private property to take pics and snoop around? I thought that was stuff hipster kids did? Guess I'm getting old.

[Drexciya68]

I find these attacks on Neavling excessive and petty. He is not hidden and is a well known former reporter from the Bay City Times and the Detroit Free Press, doing some ACTUAL journalism as opposed to those who do nothing more than sit on a forum anonymously lob bombs at those who are out trying to gather stories.

The term and concept of muckraking should tip one off to a sensationalist style. If you don't get that stop reading him. And don't expect him to respond.

To do trivial critiques of his stating commonly know facts, may prickle some who know them, but may be enlightening backstory to the other 95% of the world who doesn't.

sheesh!

I was born and raised in Detroit and have lived in the area most of my life. I made a comment about the reporting I saw. It's obviously written by someone who is from elsewhere trying to play catch up and parading around as "Captain Detroit". I am also suspect of someone who continuously make story after story after HIM. Him falling into a clearly marked hole in the street and whining about the city's failures because of it. HIM.. go to a polling station and experiencing something us Detroiters have known and/or seen for decades. This stuff that is new to him but old news to most who know Detroit. A bum coming up to you and asking for your phone is not attempted robbery and no worry of making a story out of and making HIM look like some victim. Maybe in PA or wherever he's from that shit is uncommon but it's common place here.
I pointed out that there is enough Detroit forums/websites that are much better done, better writing, better perspective and by those who actually know DETROIT. If someone posts links to their personal website expect some criticism.

[WaCoTS]

Not a personal attack, but I'm amazed at how many people here don't know this story. I always thought it was common information. The city is completely and directly responsible for the condition the Packard Plant is in today. That's why I'm amazed at people who attack the owner.

+1
its like, how many times has this backstory been rehashed on this forum alone?
and im not just regurgitating it as fact because ive heard Packman41 say it over & over--i have actually read the many news articles explaining the story of why the Packard got the way it is for myself--in hard copy--which are available in our public libraries.

I find these attacks on Neavling excessive and petty. He is not hidden and is a well known former reporter from the Bay City Times and the Detroit Free Press, doing some ACTUAL journalism as opposed to those who do nothing more than sit on a forum anonymously lob bombs at those who are out trying to gather stories.

actually i find it quite appropriate to criticise Neavling's articles. yeah, BadBrains is getting a little obsessive about it but if this Neavling guy is such a great reporter, why are his stories all so poorly done?

personal attacks arent nice, no, but when someone regularly self-promotes like this, it seems to invite heavy critique when the material is so sub-par. and i think that yes, the muckraker stories seem to have a bit of a "Superman" tone to them, which seems disingenuous and invites even deeper critique.

by allowing it to stand unchallenged, it's almost like we're saying that we approve of sub-par material such as this to represent us / our region. originally i thought the Muckraker blog was perhaps part of an undergraduate journalism class project or something so i didnt really care too much, but it appears that's not the case.
i dont think it's wrong to ask for higher standards.

juss sayin.

[Bad Brains]

I'm not attacking Neavling personally except for saying he's a terrible writer. If he's going to post his articles he has to allow himself to be open for critique and criticism. If I was posting articles online and proclaiming myself some professional "watchdog", I would welcome the harsh criticism so I could learn from my mistakes and become a better writer in the future. That's kind of how it works.

This guy is allegedly a professional who has worked in the business, yet that article I critiqued above is amateur and unprofessional at best. Sensationalism can actually work if done well. What he's doing isn't even sensationalistic, it's almost like he's making stuff up out of thin air. The article goes in circles, repeats itself, and it's plugged with a lot of random, false, and irrelevant information. That's not professional journalism.

Lowell is right on one point, and I will give this guy credit for going out there and trying, but I don't think anyone here can read anything on that site and say what a fine piece of journalism that was. He seems to have passion in his subject matter, maybe he uses the criticism to better his skills. He's awfully silent though.

[southen]

No "photo envy" here, im not actually into it enough to care like that.

I never "disparaged" Ryan, I just take exception with blanket statements about what everybody on the forum thinks of who or whatever.

I did meet Ryan and he was a prick. [[there, now he is "disparaged") I just went to his show to tell him his photos were nice. Whatever.

lmao what show would that have been? I'd also love to know how I was a prick...

[mauser]

leaf and bean, was there to put you in the local papers - called my editor and we killed it and ran something else. showed you my press pass.

[mauser]

remember when this thread was about Packard ?
#sticktothetopic

[Bad Brains]

I am also suspect of someone who continuously make story after story after HIM. Him falling into a clearly marked hole in the street and whining about the city's failures because of it.

Hahahahah! Did this guy seriously fall into a hole in the street? That's actually pretty funny. How does someone just fall into a visible hole? I can't believe I missed this one. I've got to find this story.

[Zacha341]

More related to the site:

The Packard Plant: Big. Ugly. Dangerous.

Getting rid of it won't be easy, but the region must find a way

Interesting photos...

http://www.freep.com/article/2012120...text|FRONTPAGE

[Zacha341]

Instagram photos of the Packard Plant using #PackardPlant

http://www.freep.com/article/20121202/NEWS01/120808088/Instagram-photos-Packard-Plant-using-PackardPlant