Private Interurban in COD ?

[Richard]

So here is a rough draft of a hypothetical situation.

Objective

The establishment of a interurban system within the City of Detroit and procure the exclusive rights to the grid as established 1954.

Tackard Transit Systems [[TTS) Here by submits the following proposal for the implementation of a privately owned and operated interurban system.

The following conditions would apply

TTS agrees to establish at its discretion to implement and establish service according to demand deemed necessary by TTS.

TTS will not be accountable and would be exempt to the city permitting or zoning process or fees and taxes associated with.

TTS agrees to coordinate with existing transportation but would remain not obligated to do so.

TTS agrees to give the City Of Detroit a minimum of 5 working days notice before commencement on any route.

If a regional RTA should be formed TTA would be under no obligation to enter into agreements with said agency but TTA also reserves the rights to assist in the forming of or implementing of such a regional systems with willing suburban partners should a RTA fail to succeed.

City Of Detroit agrees to be the collection authority for transit taxes received from commercial properties and other non homesteaded properties adjacent to any service line established by TTS.City Of Detroit may collect a collection fee for these services at a value to be determined.

This is kinda what a rough draft would probably look like,the whole concept would be the elimination of all and any red tape and the time it takes for the decision of placing a line and implementation being immediate instead of taking years.

Thoughts?

[DetroitPlanner]

You can have an interurban without connecting urbans. If you keep it within the City you won't be inter urban you will be sub-urban.

How do you propose to pay for this privately funded rail system when there are no rail systems in the world that do not run without a governent subsidy.

[Richard]

What it is called is kinda irrelevant as this aspect is dealing only with permission of COD rights. It does not mean that it cannot extend to sub-urban.

It would become a pia to change the signage at the city limits so it is just easier to call it what it is interurban.

As per Wiki

The term "Interurban" stood for both an electric trolley railway and for one of the passenger cars operating on that railway. Interurbans were a type of electric railway specializing primarily in passenger travel between closely spaced communities.

Not to be confused with light rail.

Light rail or light rail transit [[LRT) is a form of urban rail public transportation that generally has a lower capacity and lower speed than heavy rail and metro systems, but higher capacity and higher speed than traditional street-running tram systems.

So you could for instance take the interurban [[street car) from downtown Detroit to downtown Hamtramck or you could take LRT from MCS to Ann Arbor .

[DetroitPlanner]

You sure about that? I know it is symantics to some but you could take the interurban from Detroit to Pittsburgh, Milwaukee and Louisville. There were actually only a few interurban lines in Detroit Proper.
Check out this paper with a map: https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/WestTech/XMODERN2.HTM

What is being described is the DSR.

The biggest issue I see is financing. As you mentioned ROW would be problematic as he would need to negotiate not only with Detroit, but the State and county as well. Once ROW is approved, then you would need to get EPA and FRA for air quality conformity. Even though you would not be using federal funds or this be publicly owned, it will be something that is labelled as 'regionally significant' which will allow the feds to rip your project apart and keep it in review for years.

[Richard]

I appreciate the input and all valid points , but the crux of the question is geared more towards allowing the carte blanche [[Unrestricted power to act at one's own discretion; unconditional authority: gave the contractor carte blanche ) of a privatized street car line in the city or would this be construed as giving away a jewel for instance although non existence.The funding aspect is irrelevant.

Yes or no or thoughts.

[professorscott]

I'm with planner. Rights aren't the problem here; I hereby grant you trackage rights to Jupiter and back. Who pays for this and how? Without that, this is vapor.

[Richard]

I'm with planner. Rights aren't the problem here; I hereby grant you trackage rights to Jupiter and back. Who pays for this and how? Without that, this is vapor.

Why are you guys so hung up on asking who is going to pay for it? The question was not will you open up your checkbook for it because it is private not seeking donations.

The only local funds displayed in the "proposal" would be the standard transit tax for commercial properties located on the line.Because if one said I am going to run a route from downtown to Hamtramack up EGB guaranteed speculators will be grabbing property along that run restricting growth verses encouraging.It has also been proven that property values increase along public transit routes.

Rights are the problem,you cannot just go ripping up the street and placing track sooner or later a city guy is going to come by and question what is going on.Or is better just to kick them $100 and tell them to look the other way?

[DetroitPlanner]

Without money it is just a pipe dream. Its not a hang-up, it is reality. No money = no project.

What is the standard transit tax? Seriously. I know quite a bit about how to finance transit and have never heard of this. You have gas tax from the state, and Detroit General Fund dollars. SMART has a millage too, but since this is in Detroit, and Detroit don't participate in it, you can have it. You float a tax then its a government project.

BTW if you go about ripping out a street that the city county or state has just spent millions of dollars on, you will get thrown in jail for destruction of public property and unless you're maroun you will rot.

[Richard]

What is the standard transit tax? Seriously. I know quite a bit about how to finance transit and have never heard of this. You have gas tax from the state, and Detroit General Fund dollars. SMART has a millage too, but since this is in Detroit, and Detroit don't participate in it, you can have it. You float a tax then its a government project.

The COD collects the taxes for the schools which are in essence a separate entity.Or do you cut a separate check to the school system when you pay your taxes?

TIF [[Tax Increment Financing) district along a given streetcar line...whereby proceeds from the TIF district would help pay for the streetcar construction and/or operations.

You cannot tax somebody in say Birmingham for a street car in Detroit so basically it is a tax levied directly on properties along the route usually within a three block radius or by fed guidelines 1500 feet to be able to walk from and onto.

It has been proven that property values increase along transit lines,look at the property purchases and exchanges that have happened along Woodward sense that plan was announced and even a bit before.

So an increase of $1500 per year for instance of taxes creates a 30% increase in property value.Cheap way to add value and increases the value to the city as a whole.

So lets take it one step further and look at a bigger seneraio,lets say John Doe buys a piece of commercial property to create an employment center,and this property is in a run down part of town,so with this property John Doe builds these street cars and puts them in place and sells the rest under a concept that was created many years ago by H Ford which would drive the costs of implementation way down,not reinventing the wheel just modernizing it.

So John Doe has this property among others and runs a street car line past it,it benefits John Doe in it instantly adds property value and gives his employees another option in getting to work.It benefits the city because they now have a different mode of transportation that did not cost them anything.

It also benefits and encourages growth along that line or route which in turn benefits the community as a whole.Yes in theory John Doe is also taxing himself but he is also benefiting from it.

The best way of directing growth is with employment centers,education centers and the ability to get to them without driving or via public transportation.If you have 1200 employees and if only 200 a day ride it to work that is a passenger count of 400 a day not including passenger count that use the route during the day time.

If you take each one on their own it is difficult ,but as a combination they add value to each other.

Could privatization be abused? Yes, TTS for instance buy a bunch of neglected properties in the Dexter area put a mid income employment center in there and add a street car line and in less the 10 years double thier money.

Yes they made money but the city has also advanced,its another tool and no different then Jane Doe buying a bunch of buildings downtown and doing the same thing.Of course there is always the other option of shrinking the city and rickshaws. hypothetical of course.

[DetroitPlanner]

If you want to create a TIFA for your project then it will not be a privately owned system. It may be privately managed, but ownership will be of those who pay for it, the people.

Paying for this with a TIFA on commercial properties is dangerous. Many of the fallow commercial properties could be rebuilt as residential properties in the future and you would lose that tax capture.

The State has laws that govern the setting up of TIFA districts. As far as I know, each entity is allowed one. Currently Detroit's is the DDA. Are you proposing to work with the DDA to expand its boundaries and share the taxes captured?

Since the enactment of proposal A TIFAs have had a hard time getting started. This is because property values can only increase at the rate of inflation and the hosting community may have needs elsewhere for those dollars outside of the TIFA district.

[cramerro]

There are a number of issues here.

1. If you are looking to establish a grid, then the TIFA would cover most of the city. The argument about increased property values and economic development along a corrdior with transit cannot be applied across an entire city with any expectations for success. This concept works with a DDA or business district becuase you are improving the infrastructure to attract new businesses and customers along a focuse segment. Apply it over the whole city, and you have a wholly dilluted product. This also would monopolize any positive upswing for a city that is about to go bankrupt because thier property tax is approaching negative value.

2. Although I trust that you will find funding for your system, I will still argue that you are focusing on the 'red tape' as the exclusive barrier to transit utopia. If the City really is using copious red tape to prevent transit [[reasons could include not wanting to give up control, lose funding they could get, undermine DDOT), then they are certainly not going to do a 180 and give you carte blanche to put whatever you want, wherever. And although they are overprotective often, they do have some standing here that they wouldn't want to have some maverick out there cannibalizing thier ridership without having some control over what you go out and slap in the ground. The new best practice in government is efficiency through coordination and cooperation... your proposal and attitude flies totally counter to that idea. On top of ALL of that, the last thing we all need is a half-built, failed interurban on top of all our other disjointed, half-funded transit services.

Call your congresspeople and tell them to get the RTA passed. Then advocate for funding and smart, invovled transit planning. There is no other route to truly improve transit for the region. Once you get that far, the Feds are BIG on public-private partnerships... they have a new program called TIFIA that offers loan guarantees for all sorts of big project related to building transit, stations, and adjacent transit-focused development.

[Wheels]

Are you trying to re-create this?

http://www.detroittransithistory.inf...Shuttle-p.html

[Wesley Mouch]

I like the idea of allowing individuals to create 'private' transportation. Jitneys operated by individuals, with a little regulation, could be a start.

Regulation is a huge problem. We're addicted to the idea that everything needs to be regulated. [[And of course some things do.) The bigger problem is that any privately owned transit is competition to municipal and union interests that hold the monopoly on transit.

Look at the Mega Bus and its relatives. No reason why this might not work on a local basis -- if it were allowed.

And I also suspect that it could be done for a profit -- if the operators were allowed to do as they pleased.

[cramerro]

I like the idea of allowing individuals to create 'private' transportation. Jitneys operated by individuals, with a little regulation, could be a start.

Regulation is a huge problem. We're addicted to the idea that everything needs to be regulated. [[And of course some things do.) The bigger problem is that any privately owned transit is competition to municipal and union interests that hold the monopoly on transit.

Look at the Mega Bus and its relatives. No reason why this might not work on a local basis -- if it were allowed.

And I also suspect that it could be done for a profit -- if the operators were allowed to do as they pleased.

I agree, and I support the Detroit Bus Company. However, the idea of free rein to lay streetcar track [[and I'm assuming electrified wires) all over the City is just not a good idea without someone to watch over it [[fine, I'll just say... regulate). This is a whole different scale and impact on everyone then jitneys, shuttle buses, or other flexible, small scale, for-profit transportation.

[professorscott]

Just to clarify one thing: a City can have multiple TIFA districts in Michigan.

[DetroitPlanner]

Just to clarify one thing: a City can have multiple TIFA districts in Michigan.

Sorry dude:
The governing body of a city is authorized under P.A. 450 of 1980 to create a tax increment
finance authority [[TIFA), specify the boundaries
of the authority district, and designate a board
of directors for the authority. The municipality
may establish only one authority; however, the
boundaries of the authority may be changed at
any time by the governing body after a public
hearing
http://crcmich.org/PUBLICAT/1980s/1986/cc0958.pdf

125.1802 Authority; establishment; public body corporate; powers generally.
Sec. 2. [[1) A municipality may establish not more than 1 authority. An authority shall exercise its powers in all development areas designated pursuant to this act.
[[2) The authority shall be a public body corporate which may sue and be sued in any court of this state. The authority possesses all the powers necessary to carry out the purpose of its incorporation. The
enumeration of a power in this act shall not be construed as a limitation upon the general powers of the authority. The powers granted in this act to an authority may be exercised notwithstanding that bonds are not
issued by the authority.
History: 1980, Act 450, Imd. Eff. Jan. 15, 1981.
Popular name: TIFA
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%283sg...50-of-1980.pdf

[Richard]

Sorry dude:
The governing body of a city is authorized under P.A. 450 of 1980 to create a tax increment
finance authority [[TIFA), specify the boundaries
of the authority district, and designate a board
of directors for the authority. The municipality
may establish only one authority; however, the
boundaries of the authority may be changed at
any time by the governing body after a public
hearing
http://crcmich.org/PUBLICAT/1980s/1986/cc0958.pdf

125.1802 Authority; establishment; public body corporate; powers generally.
Sec. 2. [[1) A municipality may establish not more than 1 authority. An authority shall exercise its powers in all development areas designated pursuant to this act.
[[2) The authority shall be a public body corporate which may sue and be sued in any court of this state. The authority possesses all the powers necessary to carry out the purpose of its incorporation. The
enumeration of a power in this act shall not be construed as a limitation upon the general powers of the authority. The powers granted in this act to an authority may be exercised notwithstanding that bonds are not
issued by the authority.
History: 1980, Act 450, Imd. Eff. Jan. 15, 1981.
Popular name: TIFA
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%283sg...50-of-1980.pdf

What it is saying is that you can only have one authority but it also reads in your link

"The authority may adopt separate tax increment financing plans for one or more areas within the authority district."

One authority covers the city of Detroit and can Qualify multiple plans. For instance you take Fort,Grand River,Michigan Ave,and Gratiot run service and each one would have a separate limited TIF but under one authority.

The plan would be that those who would benefit the most would in essence be covering part of the costs ie the riders and property owners that are on the direct line back 3 blocks highest rate being directly on the line then diminishing the further away,although the whole city would benefit you are not charging the entire city residents.

[Richard]

Are you trying to re-create this?

http://www.detroittransithistory.inf...Shuttle-p.html

Yes similar but with multiple properties,education training ,advanced education training and employment and a way to get there.

I have an acquaintance that sells an end product in a large showroom,all of their suppliers they fund to start up ,and relocate to the target area covering all start up costs and buys their products all made in the US ,their last venture involved 24 start-ups with 3500 employees all making a good living wage.

[DetroitPlanner]

"The authority may adopt separate tax increment financing plans for one or more areas within the authority district."

A plan is not a TIFA district. A plan is a thing to implement. By making the city one big TIFA district there becomes no reason to do a TIFA. All you do is starve the City.

[Richard]

I agree, and I support the Detroit Bus Company. However, the idea of free rein to lay streetcar track [[and I'm assuming electrified wires) all over the City is just not a good idea without someone to watch over it [[fine, I'll just say... regulate). This is a whole different scale and impact on everyone then jitneys, shuttle buses, or other flexible, small scale, for-profit transportation.

Electric lines are nice in the nostalgic sense but not necessary,its kinda hard to have a show piece on old technology.

In regards to regulation every other city in the country base their regulations on the National transportation standard which is a given anyways ,just copy and paste,you are dealing with the public safety and everything has to be Gov certified so there is no cutting corners.

Name one thing that is currently regulated by the city that is efficient,and some private company is going to invest millions in a system that would be overseen by the city?Not going to happen.Look at the water department it was set up out of city control and they still got into it.

The city currently cannot regulate itself to the point it paid private enterprise to work on the CBD $200 million which sends the message it does not have the confidence to rebuild its core on its own.Nobody blinked when that check was cut nobody demanded regulation,how is this "hypothetical" situation different nowhere does it say cut a check for $200 mill the resistance would be because it does not concentrate on the CBD although it would feed it but the impact target would be the outer rings.

The currant bus system,well I guess that is run like a well oiled machine serving the residents in a timely and dependable manner.So running mainline rail and using the buses as feeders to serve more would not even be part of the picture.Their funding would not even be effected by this or maybe as part of a bigger plan their funding is increased because that is what it is all about,moving the masses in a dependable and timely manner,you cannot pick and choose who deserves access to public transit.

Yes it is all about red tape and attitude,and little fiefdoms and what is in it for me,why do you think Woodward is stalled? Attitude.Try calling the city and doing business with them,email the mayor and city council members and see what response you receive.

[Richard]

A plan is not a TIFA district. A plan is a thing to implement. By making the city one big TIFA district there becomes no reason to do a TIFA. All you do is starve the City.

The authority covers the entire city,the TIF only covers an area or areas designated by the authority whether it be one building or every building the faces that street.

The authority is the governing body that designates the TIF, two different things.

It is really not that complicated and is used all across the world to help fund mass transport as an alternative of taxing an entire city.Like I posted you do not use it or directly benefit from it you do not pay for it,yes, people dislike the concept because it kills the argument of I do not ride it so why should I help pay for it and it makes them think really hard of another way to throw wrenches in the works.

You do not think it was planned for Woodward?

Not that I am trying to be argumentative I appreciate the input ,I asked,this is good for others to see all sides of a issue and understand what it is about,there are positives and negatives and everything needs to be heard in order to make a decision.It probably would be easier just to go to the city and say hey here is $5 mill ,considering the currant situation I doubt they would refuse, but would that be fair to the general population?

[DetroitPlanner]

Do you think that property tax capture is being used for M-1???

[Richard]

To expand on the TIF a bit more to me it is a bit redundant in how the state words it what they are saying is you can take an industrial building and lets use Packard as a reference,the state is saying in order to encourage the reuse of it is to create a TIF to raise the taxes in the surrounding area to help pay for the tax incentives.

So what you are doing is having the neighborhood pay to rebuild Packard which in turn would help improve the neighborhood and raise values.

But here is the kicker, the city then designates Packard as a stand alone enterprise zone.Why ? The theory is because if you take a building which is the center and rehabilitate it then the neighborhood kinda rebuilds it self. Which is nice if the people have the funds to do so,most cases no,and you are cutting them off of available funds to help them.

Because the feds have said hey running all of those freeways through neighborhoods kinda messed them up and the crack thing did its share,so here is what we are going to do,what you do is designate a target area and declare it a enterprise zone and we will help you to restore those neighborhoods.

Because otherwise you have a pretty nice rebuilt building in the middle of a mess,so then the feds provide the funds to help not only the single building but an entire neighborhood,so the city is shooting itself in the foot and you can see why the neighborhoods are as they are ,it does not matter if you only have 5 people in the neighborhood left it still qualifies for improvement funds.

By declaring a property as a singular enterprise zone you are creating a tax haven for a derelict property while it is empty then if the owner decides to rehabilitate it you then designate it as a TIF project and charge the residents to fix it,so you can see why they sit empty,as an enterprise property your tax bill is reduced to bare minimum or eliminated so it is costing you bare minimum to sit on it ,no incentive to rehabilitate.

TIF everywhere else is reserved for funding special projects over a period of time,usually 10 years,it is used for maximum impact with an exit plan,by design it is a rapid form of funding and yes it can be opposed but because of its somewhat targeted nature it usually is not because the target payers profit from it long term.

[Richard]

Do you think that property tax capture is being used for M-1???

From their web site,

M-1 RAIL will be built and operated through funding provided by private donors, philanthropic foundations, corporate gifts, federal grants and tax credits. No city or state funds will be used in its construction.

I would say indirectly,yes because that is how they can generate the tax credits, Tax credits generate at best 80 cents on the dollar in cash,play on words being "In its construction".TIF will have to come into play nobody can adsorb the losses for the time frame of implementation to time enough to stand alone as the corridor becomes rebuilt enough to stand alone.


But the whole thing is if they used the TIF as originally designed,not by the state they could run the whole Woodward as a regional line.But it is back to red tape ,they scaled it because they control its region.Their are some really heavy hitters connected to the state that have acquired property along there in the past few years so I think when it goes it will have a huge impact.It would probably be in their best interest to TIF it as written by the state or cheaper for them anyways.

[DetroitPlanner]

Detroit Planner clears a spot on his desk and repeatedly pounds his head onto it. He has realized he is trying to discuss reality with someone who only sees and hears what he wants to.