What happened downtown?

[Strong]

I was wondering as Detroit was back in the day a major city with tons of wealth and a huge population, why didn't the power brokers build more tall buildings downtown?

True we got the Penobscot, Guardian, Bulr, First National, Cadillac Square and Renaissance Center, Gas Building and a few others and recently the Compuware and that glass building across the street, and then further up Woodward there's the old GM headquarters and Fisher Building but that's pretty much it.

Even historically smaller cities like Indianapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Charlotte, etc. have a larger downtown.

I think that we should have buildings in that parking lot across from Campus Martius, up Woodward just pass I-375, on the riverfront besides GM and behind the Main Post Office. This would be real impressive.

[Johnnny5]

The Great Depression happened.

[southen]

these posts need to stop! are you doing research for your documentary or do you just sit around dreaming about what detroit could be if the city had absolutely zero obstacles to overcome?

[poobert]

My advice: If you really want to do a documentary, hit the books. This kind of broad stuff and basic history is readily available at your local library and in most books about Detroit, not to mention the internet. Consider taking a course on Detroit history. That will provide the building blocks for your future endeavors if you do decide to go that route.

I do not believe ideas like we need a big statue or why don't we have more skyscrapers are compelling enough for a documentary.

[Hermod]

Think it through. The auto companies didn't need any true downtown offices. Detroit didn't have a stock exchange or a commodities exchange. Detroit banks were not large regional banks with the need for huge headquarters buildings and they did very little "investment banking" business. Even in its heyday, Detroit just didn't require so much office space downtown.

The buildings downtown had some suites of larger firms, but most of them were divided up into little offices for individual doctors, dentists, lawyers, and bookkeepers.

[Honky Tonk]

"these posts need to stop! are you doing research for your documentary or do you just sit around dreaming about what detroit could be if the city had absolutely zero obstacles to overcome?"

Thank God! I thought it was just me.

[Gistok]

Agreed all of the above... where do you get your facts from?

Downtown Cleveland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cl...-JasonRene.jpg

Downtown Cincinnati:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ci...oh_skyline.jpg

Downtown Indianapolis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Do...arage_zoom.JPG

None of these downtowns are larger than Detroits? How did you come to that assessment? Granted Cleveland's Kew Tower is "taller" than any in Detroit, but their downtown is rather sparse in density.

Also, for a Cass Tech grad... you sure do make a lot of grammar/spelling errors in your titles/content of your posts...

[MidTownMs]

What difference does it make how many skycrapers there are in Downtown Detroit if they are all empty? How impressive is that?

[Gistok]

What difference does it make how many skycrapers there are in Downtown Detroit if they are all empty? How impressive is that?

They aren't ALL empty... in fact fewer are empty than 10 years ago... you've been posting here long enough to know that without making such a flippant comment... or do you need reminding.... Book Cadillac, Fort Shelby, Kales, Broderick, First National, with plans in the works for 1001 Woodward, Whitney, Book, Stott... etc.

[313WX]

What difference does it make how many skycrapers there are in Downtown Detroit if they are all empty? How impressive is that?

They're not all empty, but I get your point.

Detroit has much bigger problems than focusing on its skyscraper heights.

San Francisco's tallest skyscraper is 47 stories. Yet it's still one of the best cities in North America.

[Gistok]

They're not all empty, but I get your point.

Detroit has much bigger problems than focusing on its skyscraper heights.

San Francisco's tallest skyscraper is 47 stories. Yet it's still one of the best cities in North America.

San Francisco has a different problem... it only has 44 square miles... not much room for abandonment... land prices are so high that an empty building would be demolished and something new [[high density) would replace it.

[MidTownMs]

They aren't ALL empty... in fact fewer are empty than 10 years ago... you've been posting here long enough to know that without making such a flippant comment... or do you need reminding.... Book Cadillac, Fort Shelby, Kales, Broderick, First National, with plans in the works for 1001 Woodward, Whitney, Book, Stott... etc.

Ok maybe I should have said half-empty....

[cman710]

San Francisco has a different problem... it only has 44 square miles... not much room for abandonment... land prices are so high that an empty building would be demolished and something new [[high density) would replace it.

Surprisingly, there is at least one abandoned skyscraper in San Francisco, the Pac Bell building. It was slated for redevelopment into luxury condos, but that plan was scrapped after the recession, and now it will be redeveloped into office space.

[cman710]

Think it through. The auto companies didn't need any true downtown offices. Detroit didn't have a stock exchange or a commodities exchange. Detroit banks were not large regional banks with the need for huge headquarters buildings and they did very little "investment banking" business. Even in its heyday, Detroit just didn't require so much office space downtown.

The buildings downtown had some suites of larger firms, but most of them were divided up into little offices for individual doctors, dentists, lawyers, and bookkeepers.

Detroit had a stock exchange until 1976. It was located at 150 West Jefferson, but was razed for the newer, modern building we have today.

[Gistok]

Surprisingly, there is at least one abandoned skyscraper in San Francisco, the Pac Bell building. It was slated for redevelopment into luxury condos, but that plan was scrapped after the recession, and now it will be redeveloped into office space.

Yes... and it sold as an empty building for $118 million... unthinkable in Detroit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PacBell_Building

[Jason]

Detroit doesn't have a smaller downtown than those cities. Those cities look like they have bigger downtowns because Detroit's downtown is spread over a bigger area. But Detroit has more building mass downtown than those cities do.

[Strong]

these posts need to stop! are you doing research for your documentary or do you just sit around dreaming about what detroit could be if the city had absolutely zero obstacles to overcome?

First of all, I don't post these for my documentary. "The Great Detroit?" is a series of interviews and footage of Detroit's landscape. So in fact, my research is not what was or is but who is doing what.

Second, I post these threads because I want to know and on this blog there are people who also might like to know and/or share their thoughts. I posted about 300,000 new Detroiters and got over 40 responses and about the statues and got many good responses.

I must admit I don't like to talk negative all the time. And, when I posted a negatively slanted thread "Is Detroit the worst city" a few questioned my motive and commented that that thread was unlike my others.

When I release the documentary with a premier or a weekend of showing or have the Dvd available for purchase only $9.95. I hope that you'll purchase one, I'll need the support. And, if you would like to help me now, I have a funding campaign at www.indiegogo.com/thegreatdetroitdoc.
I'm not trying to post spam but I thought that you would like to know.

[Strong]

"these posts need to stop! are you doing research for your documentary or do you just sit around dreaming about what detroit could be if the city had absolutely zero obstacles to overcome?"

Thank God! I thought it was just me.

I do sit around thinking about what Detroit could be because I grew up here and still live here. My parents are here. Now my daughter wants to go to college in NYC and then live there but that's 3 years off. And, my son wants to play pro basketball but he doesn't practice enough and I don't suspect he'll be 6.9 so he'll have to try something else.

[Danny]

I was wondering as Detroit was back in the day a major city with tons of wealth and a huge population, why didn't the power brokers build more tall buildings downtown?

True we got the Penobscot, Guardian, Bulr, First National, Cadillac Square and Renaissance Center, Gas Building and a few others and recently the Compuware and that glass building across the street, and then further up Woodward there's the old GM headquarters and Fisher Building but that's pretty much it.

Even historically smaller cities like Indianapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Charlotte, etc. have a larger downtown.

I think that we should have buildings in that parking lot across from Campus Martius, up Woodward just pass I-375, on the riverfront besides GM and behind the Main Post Office. This would be real impressive.

Over the past 100 to 50 years Detroit experience systems of xenophobia, segregation, restrictive covenants, cheap private and public property development in the suburbs, violent crime, racial transition and city-government corruption:


1. Xenophobia: Blacks, Whites, Mexicans and other immigrants came to Detroit to work in the automobile industry from Ford's assembly line to other manufacturing companies. People in different colors lived in their neighborhoods and they meant to keep other colored people out.

2. Segregation: When people lived in their Detroit neighborhoods they attempt to put walls, fences and create certian property deeds to white areas white, black areas black, Hispanic area Hispanic other folks in other areas.

3. Restrictive Covenants: When certian Detroit neighorhoods were built. They were built for mostly white middle class folks. like Rosedale Park to Indian Village. Poor Whites lived on low cost homes from Brightmoore to Oakwood Heights. Blacks, Mexicans and others were kept out from those areas due to their color of their skin. Some black families like Sweet family in east side and the McGhees in the west side challege those laws and won. Now white middle class families are getting scared of them and plan to move to other areas. The five Grosse Pointe suburbs had a racial steering program called the 'The Pointe System' meant to welcome rich white families and keep coloreds out!

3. Cheap and private and public property development in the suburbs: White middle folks who lived in certian Detroit neigborhoods are fed up with black folks moving in their zone due to slum clearance of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley, following ethnic Jewish communities and seeking better housing and shopping and schools. After WWII land in Detroit is getting very expensive so the suburbs offer automobile and manufacturing companies cheap land. They took the deal the moved out to area like Warren, Troy, Madison Heights, Clinton TWP, Wayne, Westland, Canton, Livonia, TWP ect... This cause private real estate companies to build cookie cutter ticky tacky little boxes that look like Levittown. It was meant for middle class white people not black families. Later the developent of shining cement coated freeways and shopping malls like Northland with access free parking lots will get the white folks out of Downtown Detroit and other mom and pop bazaars in a flash.

4. Racial transition: The 1960s was a dangerous decade for Detroit. There were a first it was a community and religious battle between first wave black families vs. poor uneducatued second wave black families. Most 1st wave blacks accepted more of Black Nation of Islam under the hononable Eiljah Mohammed. They worried a lot of black prechers mostly evangelicals and southern baptists. So later Black southern black preachers converting 2nd wave Black Detroiters via the wake of Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King. In the meantime hon. Elijah Mohammed is getting ill. He was worried that these black prechers will hinder the black community by building strofront churches and megachurches and compete for Christians for profit rather than finding lost souls. Also he worried that when whites leave Detroit and will regional jobs and development. So he quickly packed his bags, gather his followers and move to Chicago's South side to built his 'Promised Land' base. To keep his Nation of Islam strong He appointed Malcolm X to the next Leader. The problem for Malcolm X is that he preached violence and blaming white folks for the plight of black nationalism. He also blamed Black Christian preachers for being 'Uncle Tom' to the black community. This problem was accepted to second wave Black Detroit community to get ready for racial war. This lead to 1967 riot. Later real estate developers were plotting to lure white Detroit middle class families to the suburbs by hiring black kids to ride their bike to certian white Detroit hoods. This would put them in state of fear forcing them to sell their Detroit dwellings to Black families.

5. Violent Crime: the 1970s was terrible decade for Detroit. Gangs were formed, drugs were rampant and so did the robberies and shootings. It started in areas in transition from inner cities to upper east and west sides of Detroit. Middle class black families were moving further near 8 Mile Rd. Poor blacks migrated to certian parts of lower east and west side and made a ghetto out of it. This would get them to thinks to move to suburbs, too. Starting with Oak Park and Southfield. By 1974 Detroit become 52% black and 44% white. With a population of 1.5 million.

6. City and government corruption: After of the election of Coleman A. Young the first black mayor of Detroit in 1973. He wants to make Detroit more African centered before ethnic regional centered. He made racial comments in second person sentences. It's his way of attacking white people for their oppression. Since Detroit's financial woes increased, there was not enough regional dollars for more public services from police to D-DOT busses. After the Rennaisance Center building completed in 1977, there were no new taller skycsrapers that could rival the building. He played the part to have Poletown destroyed for the GM Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant in 1980. Plus more business are leaving Downtown Detroit to the suburbs. In fact by 1985 after J.L. Hudson Flagship store closed most of the retail stores along Woodward Ave. closed their doors for good. After Young left office Detroit was in shambles. It took Mayor Dennis Archer to clean up his mess by giving private companies 15 to 53% Neighborhood, Empowerment Zone tax break if they build their projects in the city. After Archer Left Detroit is back to square one when Kwame Kilpatrick threw Manoogian Parties, firing people in no reason, hiring his goon squad to do his dirty work, exchage text sex with his lover Christine Beaty. That led to perjury in a whistlblower lawsuit. That led him in jail and some restitution in which he's broke! Now he's on trial with his daddy and two of his goon squad charged with 19 counts of fraud, emblezzlement, extortion and bribery. If they convicted they would get up to 30 years in a club fed! Now we Bing who is not a politician and he is running Detroit to the ground into a brink of bankruptcy and emergency financial manager dictatorship.

[rex]

I was just thinking we needed more parking lots down there.

[313WX]

Detroit doesn't have a smaller downtown than those cities. Those cities look like they have bigger downtowns because Detroit's downtown is spread over a bigger area. But Detroit has more building mass downtown than those cities do.

All of the surface lots once you get outside of the Financial District makes downtown seem pretty small though.

[DetroitPlanner]

A long time ago GM Built the New Center well outside of the CBD. Eventually a lot of large building were built along Woodward between Downtown and New Center. These got old and many have been ripped down for 25 years or more.

Detroit grew based upon the auto industry. The auto industry is diffuse geographically.

[Hermod]

A long time ago GM Built the New Center well outside of the CBD. Eventually a lot of large building were built along Woodward between Downtown and New Center. These got old and many have been ripped down for 25 years or more.

Detroit grew based upon the auto industry. The auto industry is diffuse geographically.

A lot of the Detroit wealth was in small to medium companies supplying the auto industry. Most of these companies were built with the executive off ices right in the factory rather than having a fancy office downtown. GM was in mid-town, Ford in Dearborn, and Chrysler out in Highland Park. RenCen being downtown was solely the work of one man, Henry the Deuce, who had it built then twisted the arms of all Fords suppliers to put offices in there.

[stasu1213]

Detroit did not need any tall buildings over 10 stories in the downtown area period. Unlike Manhattan Detroit had much more land mass to stretch out over. Detroit, during the early 1900s had big city dreams but small town capabilities. Capabilities meaning that Detroit was a one industry town and built everything that depend on that one industry. Detroit was on a major decline when the RenCen was thought up. Detroit still wanted an icon such as the World Trade Center was to New York, the Sears Tower was to Chicago, and the Peachtree was to Atlanta. Detroit didn't suffer from the declining economy only; it was poor vision, outlook, and decision making from elected officials, planners, developers, and business leaders over the past 60 or so years that had caused this city to suffer for so long.

[p69rrh51]

Over the past 100 to 50 years Detroit experience systems of xenophobia, segregation, restrictive covenants, cheap private and public property development in the suburbs, violent crime, racial transition and city-government corruption:


1. Xenophobia: Blacks, Whites, Mexicans and other immigrants came to Detroit to work in the automobile industry from Ford's assembly line to other manufacturing companies. People in different colors lived in their neighborhoods and they meant to keep other colored people out.

2. Segregation: When people lived in their Detroit neighborhoods they attempt to put walls, fences and create certian property deeds to white areas white, black areas black, Hispanic area Hispanic other folks in other areas.

3. Restrictive Covenants: When certian Detroit neighorhoods were built. They were built for mostly white middle class folks. like Rosedale Park to Indian Village. Poor Whites lived on low cost homes from Brightmoore to Oakwood Heights. Blacks, Mexicans and others were kept out from those areas due to their color of their skin. Some black families like Sweet family in east side and the McGhees in the west side challege those laws and won. Now white middle class families are getting scared of them and plan to move to other areas. The five Grosse Pointe suburbs had a racial steering program called the 'The Pointe System' meant to welcome rich white families and keep coloreds out!

3. Cheap and private and public property development in the suburbs: White middle folks who lived in certian Detroit neigborhoods are fed up with black folks moving in their zone due to slum clearance of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley, following ethnic Jewish communities and seeking better housing and shopping and schools. After WWII land in Detroit is getting very expensive so the suburbs offer automobile and manufacturing companies cheap land. They took the deal the moved out to area like Warren, Troy, Madison Heights, Clinton TWP, Wayne, Westland, Canton, Livonia, TWP ect... This cause private real estate companies to build cookie cutter ticky tacky little boxes that look like Levittown. It was meant for middle class white people not black families. Later the developent of shining cement coated freeways and shopping malls like Northland with access free parking lots will get the white folks out of Downtown Detroit and other mom and pop bazaars in a flash.

4. Racial transition: The 1960s was a dangerous decade for Detroit. There were a first it was a community and religious battle between first wave black families vs. poor uneducatued second wave black families. Most 1st wave blacks accepted more of Black Nation of Islam under the hononable Eiljah Mohammed. They worried a lot of black prechers mostly evangelicals and southern baptists. So later Black southern black preachers converting 2nd wave Black Detroiters via the wake of Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King. In the meantime hon. Elijah Mohammed is getting ill. He was worried that these black prechers will hinder the black community by building strofront churches and megachurches and compete for Christians for profit rather than finding lost souls. Also he worried that when whites leave Detroit and will regional jobs and development. So he quickly packed his bags, gather his followers and move to Chicago's South side to built his 'Promised Land' base. To keep his Nation of Islam strong He appointed Malcolm X to the next Leader. The problem for Malcolm X is that he preached violence and blaming white folks for the plight of black nationalism. He also blamed Black Christian preachers for being 'Uncle Tom' to the black community. This problem was accepted to second wave Black Detroit community to get ready for racial war. This lead to 1967 riot. Later real estate developers were plotting to lure white Detroit middle class families to the suburbs by hiring black kids to ride their bike to certian white Detroit hoods. This would put them in state of fear forcing them to sell their Detroit dwellings to Black families.

5. Violent Crime: the 1970s was terrible decade for Detroit. Gangs were formed, drugs were rampant and so did the robberies and shootings. It started in areas in transition from inner cities to upper east and west sides of Detroit. Middle class black families were moving further near 8 Mile Rd. Poor blacks migrated to certian parts of lower east and west side and made a ghetto out of it. This would get them to thinks to move to suburbs, too. Starting with Oak Park and Southfield. By 1974 Detroit become 52% black and 44% white. With a population of 1.5 million.

6. City and government corruption: After of the election of Coleman A. Young the first black mayor of Detroit in 1973. He wants to make Detroit more African centered before ethnic regional centered. He made racial comments in second person sentences. It's his way of attacking white people for their oppression. Since Detroit's financial woes increased, there was not enough regional dollars for more public services from police to D-DOT busses. After the Rennaisance Center building completed in 1977, there were no new taller skycsrapers that could rival the building. He played the part to have Poletown destroyed for the GM Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant in 1980. Plus more business are leaving Downtown Detroit to the suburbs. In fact by 1985 after J.L. Hudson Flagship store closed most of the retail stores along Woodward Ave. closed their doors for good. After Young left office Detroit was in shambles. It took Mayor Dennis Archer to clean up his mess by giving private companies 15 to 53% Neighborhood, Empowerment Zone tax break if they build their projects in the city. After Archer Left Detroit is back to square one when Kwame Kilpatrick threw Manoogian Parties, firing people in no reason, hiring his goon squad to do his dirty work, exchage text sex with his lover Christine Beaty. That led to perjury in a whistlblower lawsuit. That led him in jail and some restitution in which he's broke! Now he's on trial with his daddy and two of his goon squad charged with 19 counts of fraud, emblezzlement, extortion and bribery. If they convicted they would get up to 30 years in a club fed! Now we Bing who is not a politician and he is running Detroit to the ground into a brink of bankruptcy and emergency financial manager dictatorship.

Theory 3b, 5 and 6 seem to pertain to downtown and the number of existing buildings. I do not see what 1 to 4 have to do with the number of skyscrapers downtown.

Most of the rust belt cities have the same problems so why are we in worse shape than most? You also failed to mention that Germans live in German enclaves, Poles in Polish enclaves Italians in their own etc... Also for better or worse the city functioned better when the ethnic enclaves were strong and vibrant.

Also please refrain from lumping all whites together. If you going to bring up race or ethnicity you have to go much deeper than whites keeping those of color out of their neighborhoods. They were also keeping out other whites who were not of their ethnic background. If you look at deeds from the era many nieghborhoods spelled out what whites were barred. On top of that I think blacks or Hispanics did not want any of the white eithnic groups moving into their neighborhoods either.

If you are going to bring up the GP Point system please get your facts straight! The Point system was meant to keep out EVERYONE not just people of color. Anyone who did not meet the standard were steered in a different direction. Even stranger is that current residents had to give a "good" reason to be able to put their home on the market. How many of us would laugh in the face of a realtor demanding that answer today? Going through the GP Board of Realtors info from the late 40's early 50's I saw some interesting answers but my favorite was the owner of a 7,000 sq. ft. home put down that the house was to small for his answer. I later found that he purchased a 10.000 sq. ft. home. So please when mentioning the point system remember that every ethnic group in the city was affected by it!

You also failed to mention block busting and other racially motivated tactics employed by realtors in the 40's and 50's. The block busting in Fairview/Jefferson Chalmers is so famous its studied in almost every college Urban Studies/Urban Planning program.

We also forget that Detroit is a multi nuclear[[multiple downtown) area, if you took all the tall buildings around the metro area and dropped them in downtown Detroit its skyline would be drastically different!