Great NY Times Article about Detroit's Downtown Turn Around

[DetBill]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/sp...tml?ref=sports

Great Article about Downtown Detroit.. who would have thought even a couple of years ago

[Bham1982]

The article is great press, but doesn't really say anything about downtown's alleged turnaround.

Obviously downtown Detroit will be busy when a professional sports team has a sold-out home game in a championship series. The same would be true if the team were in Auburn Hills, East St. Louis, or South Timbuktu.

It doesn't really speak to the relative health of the downtown. It just means that there are a few restaurants, bars and parking lot owners that make a little more money.

To look at an area's relative health, I would look at the "normal" activity levels, not activity levels during special events. You don't judge Ann Arbor by the Art Fair weekend or Indianapolis by Super Bowl weekend.

[401don]

The author is correct in that many of us remember how bad downtown looked and how empty it was twenty years ago. I think the renovation of the Woodward storefronts and construction of Campus Martius really started the physical transformation. I also think the actual influx in residents is being greatly exaggerated to this point. The demand is there but until we get enough units to support another 5,000 downtown residents and support some retail we won't see the "normal" activity levels that exist in every other city. It seems like it's taking forever to many of us but the influx of residents is really still in its infancy.

[Bham1982]

The author is correct in that many of us remember how bad downtown looked and how empty it was twenty years ago.

I was just a little kid, but I though downtown was a lot busier 20 years ago. I remember Woodward still had a lot of retail and there was significant retail and pedestrian activity in the blocks between Woodward and Washington.

Granted, it was mostly low-end stuff, but it was real. Downtown, to me, seems much quieter nowadays, except for special event days. It looks nicer too, with renovated streetscape and less abandoned buildings, but also more parking lots and empty storefronts.

[iheartthed]

I was just a little kid, but I though downtown was a lot busier 20 years ago. I remember Woodward still had a lot of retail and there was significant retail and pedestrian activity in the blocks between Woodward and Washington.

Granted, it was mostly low-end stuff, but it was real. Downtown, to me, seems much quieter nowadays, except for special event days. It looks nicer too, with renovated streetscape and less abandoned buildings, but also more parking lots and empty storefronts.

I was a kid too, but I remember downtown as being pretty dead by the early 1990s. There was more pedestrian activity outside of downtown than downtown itself. The exception is Greektown, which seemed a lot bigger back then and probably has never hurted for pedestrian traffic...

[401don]

I was just a little kid, but I though downtown was a lot busier 20 years ago. I remember Woodward still had a lot of retail and there was significant retail and pedestrian activity in the blocks between Woodward and Washington.

Granted, it was mostly low-end stuff, but it was real. Downtown, to me, seems much quieter nowadays, except for special event days. It looks nicer too, with renovated streetscape and less abandoned buildings, but also more parking lots and empty storefronts.

You're right. It was probably closer to 15 years ago. Winkelman's and Sibley Shoes seemed to be the last chain store holdouts. I remember several tunnel bus trips back from Tiger Stadium after night games with tons of debris blowing down a totally deserted Woodward.

[DetroitPlanner]

You're right. It was probably closer to 15 years ago. Winkelman's and Sibley Shoes seemed to be the last chain store holdouts. I remember several tunnel bus trips back from Tiger Stadium after night games with tons of debris blowing down a totally deserted Woodward.

You could probably add Radio Shack, Payleyss Shoes, H & H, and Foot Locker to that list. They were still around then. The last really big stores shut down in the late 1980's; those Being McCrory's and Pam's. McCrory's took over either Kressgee or Woolworths. Pam was independant.

[Eric_c]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

[drjeff]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

I agree 100%. Even in 1998 downtown was far, far worse than it is now. There was absolutely no reason to go downtown. It's actually incredible how much things have changed for the better in that time.

[Eric_c]

Other memories...abandoned Madison Theater with a nasty adult bookstore in the Broadway retail spaces, no such thing as Park Ave, giant, looming Hudson's, Statler and Lafayette Buildings, no Compuware, [[empty Kern AND Crowley blocks). Everything was far less connected. Capitol Park was even WORSE with no future plans! Lol! God, what a place.

I fell in love and still am!

[iheartthed]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

That is what I remember too. And Kennedy Square smelled like a giant urinal. I do remember an Arby's [[I think) across from Kennedy Square that was kinda busy. But that area has come a LONG way. The pedestrian traffic still might be light, but it's not hardly worse than it was in the early 1990s.

[Bham1982]

In 1993, Downtown Detroit was DEAD. The stores on Woodward were all low-end dives and the best buildings were worn out. Winkleman's was the last 'name' to disappear.

There was no riverwalk. There were no boat tours. The Ren Cen was a flagging mess. Campus Martius was a massive, empty intersection. Kennedy Square was. Where the bums slept. Cadillac Square was a dirty, half-assed bus terminal. Weeds to my knees chocked Monroe, Farmer, Library, etc. Wooden telephone poles anchored into asphalt fill on the sidewalks were all over. There was no Detroit Opera House, no stadia [[abandoned builings sat there), no casinos, no DTE plaza. There was no Book-Cadillac, no Fort Shelby, no Hilton Gardens, no Holiday Inn. Washington Boulevard was a rotting brick pedestrian plaza. The Broderick was closed but for the Flaming Embers and even it was just a mess. The Whitney Building was 90% empty and closed shortly thereafter. The streetscapes were worn out, beat up and ugly. Light fixtures and traffic signals were all primer gray or rust brown. Trash was everywhere. There were barely any trash cans. There was no Clean Downtown.

I can go on and on.

If you don't KNOW Downtown Detroit is in considerably better, busier shape now than 20 years ago, you either weren't here at that time or haven't been here since. The whole Jefferson corridor all the way out to Waterworks Park looks considerably cleaner and has a ton of places that weren't even there in '93. Same with Michigan and Woodward.

I know. I was here then and I'm still here now! Rant over.

I could do the exact same rant right now, and mention all the things that were downtown back then, and aren't there now.

Many major law firms left, some hotels closed, all the retail closed, Greektown and Bricktown are shells of the past, the financial district is diminished, there are more parking lots than ever, and fewer buildings than ever.

The positive things that have happened are almost 100% relocations from other parts of Detroit [[GM, Tigers, etc.) or heavily subsidized projects [[Book Cadillac, Broderick, etc.).

I think your first paragraph speaks to the biggest divergence in opinion. You acknowledge that there was retail on Woodward, but it was "low end dives" [[in other words, beauty shops, wig shops, shoe stores and other services for Detroiters), so doesn't "count", in your mind.

I agree that Woodward is much, much nicer looking, because of all the building renovations. But there's nothing really there, at least not yet. The retail is mostly empty, and the few businesses that have opened, while certainly not "low end dives", haven't shown much success.

Is it better to have low end retail in run-down buildings serving Detroiters, or nice, empty buildings looking pretty for suburban visitors and 20-something urbanists?

[Eric_c]

People actually have reason to linger in the heart of town now. Prior to Campus Martius, it was really like going into no man's land north of there, walking past Hudson's, etc. There are definitley more pedestrians now than any time in the last 20 years.

[Bham1982]

People actually have reason to linger in the heart of town now. Prior to Campus Martius, it was really like going into no man's land north of there, walking past Hudson's, etc. There are definitley more pedestrians now than any time in the last 20 years.

I am confident there are fewer pedestrians downtown than 20 years ago.

There are possibly more suburban pedestrians, and definitely more young, white people, but fewer pedestrians overall. There were lots of black pedestrians all over Woodward, Washington Boulevard, and the in-between streets 20 years ago. There was lots of low-end retail, some fast food, and the bus terminal was still in the heart of downtown.

[drjeff]

I am confident there are fewer pedestrians downtown than 20 years ago.

There are possibly more suburban pedestrians, and definitely more young, white people, but fewer pedestrians overall. There were lots of black pedestrians all over Woodward, Washington Boulevard, and the in-between streets 20 years ago. There was lots of low-end retail, some fast food, and the bus terminal was still in the heart of downtown.

You might be confident but you are still wrong. And, by the way, what difference does it make what race the pedestrians are? Have you ever been in the DBD of ANY other major city? Most of the people walking around don't actually live in that area.

[Eric_c]

B'ham - as I wrote my list, I was also mentally ticking off buildings and establishments nearby the areas. I described and the fact is, the closings are fewer. Add Midtown to the mix and it's off the charts better compared to then. As someone who actually lives right here, I haven't seen any of these "diminishments" hamper the continued evolution.

[MidTownMs]

You're right. It was probably closer to 15 years ago. Winkelman's and Sibley Shoes seemed to be the last chain store holdouts. I remember several tunnel bus trips back from Tiger Stadium after night games with tons of debris blowing down a totally deserted Woodward.

Is the debris to which you refer tumbleweed?

[Eric_c]

You're remembering a 'busy' Downtown because you were ten years old coming into the city for events. Ever see all the lemmings sitting in line for sporting events? They're the same ones thinking, "It's too busy 'down' here!"

Take my word for it, kiddo. We're a lot farther ahead now.

[cmubryan]

Let's not forget the red metal playground-like structure that spanned Washington Blvd with it's frosted flashing bubble lights! Towards the end of it's tenure, the bulbs weren't being replaced, so half the lights flashed and others were out-looked real classy. That, combined with the two abandoned anchors-Detroit Hilton [[Statler) to the north and Book Cadillac to the South made Washington Blvd look the worst of them all. The vacant Days Inn [[now Holiday Inn Express) with its Heaven on Earth Inn sign plastered over the former Days Inn sign was a bonus as well.

Nah-we haven't made much progress downtown [[sarcastic).

[kryptonite]

Yes Downtown is much busier than 20 years ago. I worked downtown 20 years ago, it was closing down and dying. Now when I go to an event downtown there are crowds out and walking, enjoying themselves. there is much yet that could improve but the Book Cadillac is open again, the Fort Shelby, soon the Broderick, the Pontchartrain, the Whitney Bldg, maybe some others. And many pedestrians, particularly on the weekends have been downtown in my experience. Yes, the retail is still not good, but many improvements have happened and are happening.

[ismoakrack]

Does anyone have any pics of the area including downtown, east riverfront, cass park area, brush park, and woodward up to MLK during the 80's-90's? I find that to be a fascinating time period for downtown, but all google pics are current or 50's nostalgia stuff. Even pics from the 70's would be cool. Thanks!

[401don]

We have had this discussion many times before and I have no idea who is knocking on Gilbert's door but if he can find even 10-12 viable retailers for the Woodward corridor that to me would be the real tipping point to an active downtown. It would change everyone's perception to the point that it might be worthwhile to charge little or no rent for a year or two until these retailers become established. The rent would be more than recouped from additional corporate business in his many buildings.

[Eric_c]

I had tons of pics from that era in photo albums. Alas, I couldn't even guess whatever happened to them.

Other remeberances: Bricktown was a weed-choked parking lot on the East side of Beaubien. You could see the alley side of the Cornice and Slate Bldg as there was no Blue Cross low rise offfice or parking structure or landscaping. At least four or five flat lots have become parking structures, most with first floor retail.

We've come so far in spite of everything and will continue to grow. There are too many people who want it. This article says it: there's a filter and those who choose to be here are definitely motivated, self-starters. This is a great time to be in the Greater Downtown.

[Hypestyles]

hopefully more people will come to work, live, recreation, etc.

[Mind field]

What has been added to downtown in the last decade or so has been nothing short of transformational. Anyone who thinks that downtown Detroit is not a better place today than it was 5, 10, or 20 years ago is delusional, or very misinformed. How can you tell me that the downtown of 1992 minus Ford field, Comerica Park, Compuware, Quicken Loans, GM, Onstar, 3 casinos, the Detroit Opera House, Riverwalk, Campus Martius Park, Movement, Broderick Tower, YMCA, Kales Building, One Kennedy Square, Book Cadillac, and Pick Fort Shelby.....was a better place?