Detroit News poll: Crime drives Detroiters out; 40% expect to leave in 5 years

[Danny]

So take 718,000 in Detroit's population now and multiply it by 0.4 percent; by 2017 Detroit's population will be 287,200. REDICULOUS! I say by 2017 Detroit's population will decrease slowly to about 560,000. It's the black middle class folks that are leaving the ghettoes to the low and fixed-income folks and turning those areas into instant ghostowns.

[Detroitnerd]

Quite a bit more than ten square blocks.

From the Clinton River north to Tienken Road and from Stony Creek west to Livernois is almost all walkable and bikeable. That is somewhere between one and two square miles.

Oooooh! Less than two square miles! Eat your HEART out, Big Apple!

[D_Town]

At this point in 20/30 yrs its just going to be Downtown/midtown and dotted surviving neighborhoods surronded by miles of empty land? O___O

I'm interested in the college students that are leaving this whole metro area and the void that will leave in the future with this area

[Packman41]

[QUOTE=Detroitnerd;

Now, to people who want walkability and bikability, as well as density, even I have to admit that Rochester is totally desirable -- for about 10 square blocks. After that it is a fairly standard upscale suburban environment of curvilinear streets, large homes, cul de sacs and big box stores.

Oh, yeah. Try biking there. [/QUOTE]

Hmmm… Not bikeable??…only 10 blocks?? Not hardly.

Paint Creek Trail starts in downtown Rochester and goes 9 miles NNW to Oxford. This connects to the Polly Ann Trail and takes you north to Oxford, Dryden and Imlay City– I can’t count the miles.
http://www.paintcreektrail.org/
http://www.pollyanntrailway.org/inde...d=52&Itemid=56

Clinton River Trail passes through downtown Rochester. Cycle 2 miles E of downtown and you connect to the Macomb Orchard Trail. Cycle 14 miles W and you connect up to the West Bloomfield Trail in Keego Harbor.
http://www.clintonrivertrail.org/PDF...LowRes%201.pdf

Macomb Orchard Trail starts in downtown Rochester and goes 10 miles NNE to Romeo, then another 7 miles to Armada and then another 6 miles to Richmond – total of 23 miles, one way.
http://www.orchardtrail.org/images/M...%202009-w2.pdf

One could say downtown Rochester is the centerpoint for all three bike trails.

[313WX]

Only in Michigan is "Rochester" considered a big walkable city with tons of culture.

[MidTownMs]

Only in Michigan is "Rochester" considered a big walkable city with tons of culture.

Culture in Rochester. Where Exactly?

[Bham1982]

Rochester is decent and a pleasant place to live/visit but in no way an urban substitute.

It takes more than just some older homes and a "ye olde Main Street" to create an urban environment.

[313WX]

Culture in Rochester. Where Exactly?

Well I didn't say that, for the record.

Culture? There is a state university [[Oakland) plus two small colleges in Rochester/Rochester Hills and the Meadowbrook Theater is there with an extensive bill of offerings each year.

[MidTownMs]

[QUOTE=313WX;345106]Well I didn't say that, for the record.[/QUOTE

I think we have a different definition of culture.

[Detroitnerd]

Hmmm… Not bikeable??…only 10 blocks?? Not hardly.
One could say downtown Rochester is the centerpoint for all three bike trails.

You're doing it wrong. Bikability means not that there are all these bike trails to go biking on. It means the city is good for going from place to place within the city by bicycle, actual streets are amenable to cycling, businesses have bike racks, etc.

Like, Detroit is bikable because I can go from my house to work by bike. After work, I bike home.

[Detroitnerd]

Only in Michigan is "Rochester" considered a big walkable city with tons of culture.

Because to consider the alternative -- that Detroit is the kind of city we produce -- would be too damning to us.

[DetroitPlanner]

Only in Michigan is "Rochester" considered a big walkable city with tons of culture.

Detroit is very walkable. It also has a ton of culture. Now can you walk to most things? Thats a different question. I've always fond it ironic that Downtown Plymouth has a perfect walkscore [[and I'm assuming Rochester would too) though nearly everyone downtown drives to it, you don't see a lot of pedestrians and everyone enters the stores through the back because that is where the parking is!

Walkable is very subjective. Walkscore is not necessarily reality.

[Bham1982]

Detroit is very walkable. It also has a ton of culture.

I agree that Detroit has a ton of culture, but it's almost completely unwalkable.

In terms of practical walkability, it's probably less walkable than Madison Heights. Sidewalks overgrown with weeds, broken glass and garbage everywhere, danger at nightfall, complete with broken streetlights, and the friendly neighborhood feral dogs.

Detroit is much more bikable, though. Nice and flat, wide streets with little traffic, and getting decent bike infrastructure in some of the core neighborhoods.

[krapug1]

What could Detroit/Michigan learn from those areas? Nothing, since Michigan is extremely proud of its inability to learn anything new. The mentality here is the same as 30 years ago. Actually, I take that back. People seem angrier, more on edge, and race relations seem worse than ever. Visiting other American cities is like going to another dimension.

At the rate Detroit's population is going, Boston will have a larger population in just a few more years. Pretty sad considering that Detroit's peak was just over 2 million, and Boston's was just over 800,000.

You can't blame good people for giving up, the strain becomes, physical and emotional.

Ken

[Detroitnerd]

I agree that Detroit has a ton of culture, but it's almost completely unwalkable.

In terms of practical walkability, it's probably less walkable than Madison Heights. Sidewalks overgrown with weeds, broken glass and garbage everywhere, danger at nightfall, complete with broken streetlights, and the friendly neighborhood feral dogs.

I dunno, man. I think your perception of Detroit is too much like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6oy46qKE4

Whereas mine is more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpBhrjfetkk

[corktownyuppie]

[[1) I miss Rerun. I grew up watching this stuff on Channel 50.
[[2) That Detroit [[What's Happenin') is long gone and not coming back. The sooner we realize that and re-inventing ourselves, the better.

[poobert]

Well hot damn, that settles it, I was wrong after all. I'm moving to Rochester.

Seriously, you can't make this shit up.

"Like millions of other Americans I want to live in a real, bustling, walkable big city! Michigan doesn't offer me that"
"Ah that's where you're wrong. We have Rochester! There is a downtown you can drive to that is several blocks long!"

[Detroitnerd]

[[1) I miss Rerun. I grew up watching this stuff on Channel 50.
[[2) That Detroit [[What's Happenin') is long gone and not coming back. The sooner we realize that and re-inventing ourselves, the better.

I don't know about that. My neighborhood is pretty integrated and we all get along pretty well. Not everybody is a crack zombie waiting to stick a knife in you...

[Detroitnerd]

Well hot damn, that settles it, I was wrong after all. I'm moving to Rochester.

Seriously, you can't make this shit up.

"Like millions of other Americans I want to live in a real, bustling, walkable big city! Michigan doesn't offer me that"
"Ah that's where you're wrong. We have Rochester! There is a downtown you can drive to that is several blocks long!"

I know. It's amazing, isn't it? The level of denial around here is just astonishing. I just say, go ahead and believe it if you want to. When your kids turn 18, kiss 'em goodbye, because you're just never going to see them again.

[Shollin]

I know. It's amazing, isn't it? The level of denial around here is just astonishing. I just say, go ahead and believe it if you want to. When your kids turn 18, kiss 'em goodbye, because you're just never going to see them again.

Both of my children are over 18 now and neither have any desire to leave. One lives in Warren and the other lives in St Clair Shores. I guess I don't understand this walkability craze now. Don't these yuppies ever reproduce? What do they do with their children? It seemed like in the 90's places like Troy were the rave.

[Hermod]

My stepson moved from the thriving metro Washington DC area to the Detroit metro area in 1992. He has lived successively in Sterling Heights, Chesterfield Twp, and now Macomb Twp. While he would love to move south, he is tied to his job. I just couldn't keep him in Washington DC [[sniff). He ran away to the Detroit burbs.

[poobert]

Both of my children are over 18 now and neither have any desire to leave. One lives in Warren and the other lives in St Clair Shores. I guess I don't understand this walkability craze now. Don't these yuppies ever reproduce? What do they do with their children? It seemed like in the 90's places like Troy were the rave.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Cavalier dismissal - denial, rather - that there is simply anything wrong with Metro Detroit besides, well, Detroit itself of course.

The dismissal, based on a personal anecdote [[look at how they come out of the woordwork), flies in the face of the seemingly obvious trends that have gone on here for years. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ETRO/904020403
Just because your kid lives in Metro Detroit doesn't mean we've bucked a demographic trend.

Cities have been around since time immemorial. The great cities of the world - New York, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Tokyo, Brussells, Berlin - have ALWAYS been "walkable." Walkability is not a "fad." It is how most of the world - and every human being before the 20th centry - gets places. Walking is good for your health and good for the environment. It save money on gas, which does not appear to be getting any cheaper. I think any reasonable person would recognize that.

On the other hand, this idea of driving everywhere that you so espouse has only been widespread for the past 60 years or so, in our giant suburb of a region, which is altogether looking pretty anemic right now. Yet, bafflingly, you suggest that walking to get somewhere is merely a trend, akin, to say, disco.

Not only do I not want to live in a region that finds Warren and Rochester to be the pinnacle of civilization, why would I want to live with people who feel that way? I want to live with like-minded people who like to walk places, value transit for so many obvious regions, and think cities and the environment are important. It's clear we're not going to agree on those things and that any attempt to change things in the deep void that is Michigan is fruitless. It is made up of Shollins and Hemrods, who elect Shollins and Hemrods. Geriatric and dismissive.

I'm leaving before I become old and complacent enough to think that a big screen TV in my Warren ranch house are what this world has to offer.

[antongast]

I guess I don't understand this walkability craze now. Don't these yuppies ever reproduce? What do they do with their children?

I would think that children would benefit from walkability more than adults would. If you're an adult, assuming you can afford a car, the walkability issue mostly boils down to convenience and personal taste, but if you're a kid, living in an isolated area is a severe mobility constraint that could prevent you from doing lots of things you might otherwise be interested in doing.

[Shollin]

I would think that children would benefit from walkability more than adults would. If you're an adult, assuming you can afford a car, the walkability issue mostly boils down to convenience and personal taste, but if you're a kid, living in an isolated area is a severe mobility constraint that could prevent you from doing lots of things you might otherwise be interested in doing.

So kids are suppose to walk to bars and restaurants? When my kids were young they played with their friends at the park, rode bikes through the neighborhood, played sports, and hung out at Eastland Mall. Those poor kids. They should've lived in some cramped loft downtown with no park space to play in.

[Shollin]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Cavalier dismissal - denial, rather - that there is simply anything wrong with Metro Detroit besides, well, Detroit itself of course.

The dismissal, based on a personal anecdote [[look at how they come out of the woordwork), flies in the face of the seemingly obvious trends that have gone on here for years. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ETRO/904020403
Just because your kid lives in Metro Detroit doesn't mean we've bucked a demographic trend.

Cities have been around since time immemorial. The great cities of the world - New York, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Tokyo, Brussells, Berlin - have ALWAYS been "walkable." Walkability is not a "fad." It is how most of the world - and every human being before the 20th centry - gets places. Walking is good for your health and good for the environment. It save money on gas, which does not appear to be getting any cheaper. I think any reasonable person would recognize that.

On the other hand, this idea of driving everywhere that you so espouse has only been widespread for the past 60 years or so, in our giant suburb of a region, which is altogether looking pretty anemic right now. Yet, bafflingly, you suggest that walking to get somewhere is merely a trend, akin, to say, disco.

Not only do I not want to live in a region that finds Warren and Rochester to be the pinnacle of civilization, why would I want to live with people who feel that way? I want to live with like-minded people who like to walk places, value transit for so many obvious regions, and think cities and the environment are important. It's clear we're not going to agree on those things and that any attempt to change things in the deep void that is Michigan is fruitless. It is made up of Shollins and Hemrods, who elect Shollins and Hemrods. Geriatric and dismissive.

I'm leaving before I become old and complacent enough to think that a big screen TV in my Warren ranch house are what this world has to offer.

New York area has 19 million people. Basically 11 million people don't live in New York city. The metro New York region is growing faster than New York City. Chicago has had a steady decline in population yet a rapidly growing metro area. Suburban areas are growing at a faster pace than urban cities, yet, baffingly, you think people prefer dense urban cores.