Detroit News poll: Crime drives Detroiters out; 40% expect to leave in 5 years

**oo7plyr** · October-09-12, 06:08 AM

Detroit's crime crisis is prompting such pessimism that 40 percent of residents plan to move within five years, according to a comprehensive poll of Detroiters' attitudes about their city and leadership.Residents overwhelmingly believe the city is on the wrong track and have no faith that city leaders have a plan to turn it around. Crime is by far their biggest worry — even higher than finding a job in a city where some put the true unemployment rate as high as 50 percent.
The survey suggests that, unless city officials can combat violence, efforts to halt decades of decline will fail. The city's population already has fallen by 1 million over the past 50 years, and residents including Michael LaBlanc said they are ready to leave.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz28nbOEjPI

**kryptonite** · October-09-12, 07:15 AM

This is no surprise. I left Detroit after being the victim of serious crime. All but one of my former neighbors are gone. Almost all of my current neighbors in my suburb left Detroit largely because of violence and crime, many in the last ten years such as myself.

And it's sad, I loved my Detroit house and for most of my time there I loved my neighborhood. And I still love the city. But the quality of life in my neighborhood declined continually and crime increased continually.

**Bham1982** · October-09-12, 07:23 AM

40% sounds low to me. I don't know why it wouldn't be higher.

Property values are so low in the working class inner suburbs. You can buy a decent home in Madison Heights for 20k or something crazy low. You can find cheap rentals everywhere, and many suburban landlords now take Section 8.

Outside of a few more prosperous "islands", I don't get why any non-desperately poor residents stay. Family and church ties? They're elderly and won't move?

**DetroitPlanner** · October-09-12, 07:30 AM

Bham there are a lot of 'non-desperately poor' who are living in homes that were paid off years ago that they cannot sell. Not everyone is on Section 8.

**Hermod** · October-09-12, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Bham there are a lot of 'non-desperately poor' who are living in homes that were paid off years ago that they cannot sell. Not everyone is on Section 8.

Yes, they are living in fear and terror in their paid off home which is worth less and less every year. Even if they can't sell it, it becomes more and more attractive to just walk away from what is essentially worthless.

**Bham1982** · October-09-12, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Bham there are a lot of 'non-desperately poor' who are living in homes that were paid off years ago that they cannot sell. Not everyone is on Section 8.

Yeah, I know. That's why I'm surprised that more don't take advantage of the real estate market. You can buy somewhere safe and with good services, low taxes and decent schools for almost nothing.

I don't mean the prosperous pockets, or the desperately poor parts, but places like Old Redford, Warrendale, Rouge Park area, etc. Those places are still filled with hard working lower middle class residents, and most households could afford a cheap home somewhere else.

**kryptonite** · October-09-12, 07:42 AM

It would be interesting to hear from other Detroityes posters who have left Detroit regarding their reasons.

**poobert** · October-09-12, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Yeah, I know. That's why I'm surprised that more don't take advantage of the real estate market. You can buy somewhere safe and with good services, low taxes and decent schools for almost nothing.

I don't mean the prosperous pockets, or the desperately poor parts, but places like Old Redford, Warrendale, Rouge Park area, etc. Those places are still filled with hard working lower middle class residents, and most households could afford a cheap home somewhere else.

Well, I think you've answered your own question. Those are probably the areas that are emptying out [[and becoming more dangerous) the quickest. The problem is that if you bought a house in Warrendale 6 years ago, you likely paid 5 times what it is now worth. Some people will walk away, others will not. Personally I admire those who are willing to take responsibility for their debts which they willingly entered into.

That means the city's population will decrease to 400,000 people. That isn't sustainable. There isn't a political will for any kind of rightsizing, let alone one of that magnitude. Even then, what the hell do you do? Turn the entire eastside into a lake? I don't know what will happen, but I can only imagine the state and feds somehow disbanding Detroit through emergency measures.

The biggest public concern is safety, yet the administration is silent when a few dozen people are murdered in two weeks.

**iheartthed** · October-09-12, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by poobert

Well, I think you've answered your own question. Those are probably the areas that are emptying out [[and becoming more dangerous) the quickest. The problem is that if you bought a house in Warrendale 6 years ago, you likely paid 5 times what it is now worth. Some people will walk away, others will not. Personally I admire those who are willing to take responsibility for their debts which they willingly entered into.

That means the city's population will decrease to 400,000 people. That isn't sustainable. There isn't a political will for any kind of rightsizing, let alone one of that magnitude. Even then, what the hell do you do? Turn the entire eastside into a lake? I don't know what will happen, but I can only imagine the state and feds somehow disbanding Detroit through emergency measures.

The biggest public concern is safety, yet the administration is silent when a few dozen people are murdered in two weeks.

If 300,000 people can just walk away from the city of Detroit with relative ease... there are some other issues going on that are beyond the control of the city of Detroit.

**MidTownMs** · October-09-12, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by kryptonite

It would be interesting to hear from other Detroityes posters who have left Detroit regarding their reasons.

I left Detroit on April 4, 2012 because the quality of my life became more important to me than my loyalty to Detroit. In 1992 I left Detroit and moved to Ann Arbor to attend U-M. Upon receiving my Bachelor's & Master's degrees I moved back to Detroit in 1998 because I thought I could make a contribution to Detroit in my field. Recruiters from all over the country came to U-M School of Social Work because at that time it was the No. 1 School of Social Work in the country. But I chose to go back to Detroit. I won't say it was a mistake because even before I graduated I was hired to work for a great agency and I remained gainfully employed right up until I left. I left because it became too stressful living in Detroit. I got tired of driving outside of the city to buy decent food at an affordable price. I got tired of rushing home before it got dark because I did not feel safe at night driving thru the streets of Detroit. I got tired of having to drive out of my way to go to gas stations, drug & party stores where I didn't have to worry about being harrassed by hoods and thugs just because I decided to shop there. I got tired of having to drive outside of the city to shop at major retail stores. I got tired of going into Detroit businesses and have to deal with workers who have an attitude because I asked them a question. I got tired of paying more for auto insurance than anywhere else in the country. I got tired of conducting business standing in front of bullet proof glass. I got tired of waiting for the light to turn green just to get inside of a bank. And most of all I got tired of the corrupt and dysfuctional leadership that has infiltrated the city over the years since I returned to Detroit in 1998. After awhile I just got tired of being tired and decided it was time to move on. I realize that everyone who wants to move can't just pick up and leave. I could because I had a good education and some marketable skills. I know that there are many other cities in the country that have some of the same problems and issues as Detroit. But I did not live in them. I hope Detroit does make a comeback and turns into a place where people want to live, work, and start businesses. I just could not wait that long.

**poobert** · October-09-12, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If 300,000 people can just walk away from the city of Detroit with relative ease... there are some other issues going on that are beyond the control of the city of Detroit.

Well, you can walk away from any city with ease. This is the US, and we don't have restriction of movement, and you can't be forced to stay in your house [[though you will suffer severe penalties for absconding the financial agreement you entered into). Most other US cities don't deal with this on such a massive scale though, because few cities in the Western world experience the terror-induced flight that is now occuring.

A lot of people are also jackasses though, abandoning perfectly good houses in decent neighborhoods because they're sick of paying the amount they agreed to pay a few years ago and now they can get a house for 20k elsewhere. So much for "ask not what your country can do for you" more like "I've got mine so fuck you"

**Bham1982** · October-09-12, 09:28 AM

I think that the blurring of informal race-based neighborhood boundaries, while a good thing [[obviously), has further weakened the working class neighborhoods.

It means that black Detroiters are often comfortable moving anywhere in the region, which wasn't the case even 10-15 years ago. My high school graduating class had one or two African American students back in the late 90's. I think it's about 20% black nowadays, and this in an affluent Oakland County suburb.

An even more dramatic change can be seen in Macomb, where there were basically no black people in areas like Shelby Township, Macomb Township, etc. until very recently.

**iheartthed** · October-09-12, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by poobert

Well, you can walk away from any city with ease. This is the US, and we don't have restriction of movement, and you can't be forced to stay in your house [[though you will suffer severe penalties for absconding the financial agreement you entered into). Most other US cities don't deal with this on such a massive scale though, because few cities in the Western world experience the terror-induced flight that is now occuring.

A lot of people are also jackasses though, abandoning perfectly good houses in decent neighborhoods because they're sick of paying the amount they agreed to pay a few years ago and now they can get a house for 20k elsewhere. So much for "ask not what your country can do for you" more like "I've got mine so fuck you"

A single person can leave a city, but 300,000 people cannot displace themselves simultaneously with relative ease from most cities. If 300,000 people leave Detroit to move elsewhere in Metro Detroit then that means there is existing unused infrastructure for 300,000 people that already exists in Metro Detroit outside of the city of Detroit... Which raises the question of why so much excess infrastructure exists for a population that isn't growing to absorb it?

**Wesley Mouch** · October-09-12, 10:02 AM

Public safety is the #1 thing a city needs to do for its citizens. Detroit has failed to do so. Bring on the Camden solution. Nothing else matters but getting this job done. It must be obvious by now that the DPD is a dysfunctional organization that is a dozen years away from being a competent police force.

Policing, like the military, is a very hard thing to administer. It takes years and years of hard work to create a competent police force. We're not starting from scratch. We're starting from far behind zero. Camden.

**313WX** · October-09-12, 10:43 AM

But...but...but...I thought Detroit was coming back?

Oh wait, that was Gilbertown.

**kryptonite** · October-09-12, 10:54 AM

I don't think that there is any question that part of Detroit actually is coming back. At this point it is happening in Downtown and Midtown with a bit of the recovery spilling into adjacent neighborhoods such as Eastern Market, West Village, Corktown, etc.

BUT, will the new residents coming in from the suburbs and the new business entrepeneurs still be here in five years? Like us former highly dedicated Detroit residents - will they be chased away by crime, violence, poor services, bad schools, high insurance rates, high taxes, poor quality of life, etc? Or will their return to the city translate into an improvement in quality of life in Detroit? I hope their presence means improvement, but time will tell.

**Gannon** · October-09-12, 11:06 AM

This is totally ignoring the newfound imports from those Japanese bus tours and ex-pat operatives like Patty Smith recruiting from the disenfranchised artsy-types of NYC.

There will be plenty of new targets for the perps to prey upon...but they might be surprised. At least the New Yorkers won't likely back down from a robbery attempt...

**Gannon** · October-09-12, 11:08 AM

Oh, and officially, I left town because Hysteric said I wasn't bohemian enough.

Cheers!

**casscorridor** · October-09-12, 11:13 AM

300,000 people leaving in 5 years won't happen, even if they all want to leave, for reasons already stated. I can see 100,000 people leaving, because 200,000 left in the 10 years and not much has changed since to keep people here.

Of course the greater Downtown areas like Midtown, Corktown, Eastern Market, Lafayette Park and so on are thriving. And Palmer Park/University area is in the process of re-branding itself as "Uptown Detroit." The Villages are are holding up against the storm and are in the process of adding much needed retail. Grandmont-Rosedale area is traditionally one of Detroit's best middle-class suburban neighborhood and continues to be. Immigrant enclaves in Southwest and straddling Hamtramck are also holding up well. Everything else is up in the air.

The areas I mentioned represent a tiny sliver of the city at-large, so to reverse the hemorrhaging will require a massive influx of resources for city services and new infrastructure, especially transit. There is no sign that this will happen -- lights continue to go dim, schools continue to close, police and fire continue to be cut, and buses come more and more infrequently. Meanwhile, residents don't want to stay on dark streets with only a few houses and without even the slightest assurance of safety. I therefore, expect the diaspora to continue unabated. Nothing short of some kind of a New Deal or outright revolution will stop the decline of the city at-large. Greater Downtown is and will continue to be an island surrounded by devastation.

**Detroitnerd** · October-09-12, 11:30 AM

Just a fine point here, but one worth mentioning.

What we're really talking about here is property crime.

You live in fear of property crime, but not terror of it.

This is not Little Mogadishu, with warlords running whole neighborhoods. It's a city filled with lots of little rip-off artists and the occasional mugger.

If you really read the article, it's about people upset and intending to move because of crimes against property, not people.

We now return to your discussion, which is already in progress.

**Crumbled_pavement** · October-09-12, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Just a fine point here, but one worth mentioning.

What we're really talking about here is property crime.

You live in fear of property crime, but not terror of it.

This is not Little Mogadishu, with warlords running whole neighborhoods. It's a city filled with lots of little rip-off artists and the occasional mugger.

If you really read the article, it's about people upset and intending to move because of crimes against property, not people.

We now return to your discussion, which is already in progress.

My cousin was telling me about a guy he grew up with in his old neighborhood near Tireman. He told me the guy was just walking to the store when he was attacked and beating to within an inch of his life. The motive is suspected to be robbery, but why did they have to beat the victim so? Maybe the article that is linked to in this thread is mainly about property crimes, but it is so much deeper than that.

Btw, I work too hard for what little scraps I have. Property crime is enough. It means I have to work twice as hard to have half as much as my co-workers who live in real neighborhoods [[in the suburbs).

**Detroitnerd** · October-09-12, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Crumbled_pavement

My cousin was telling me about a guy he grew up with in his old neighborhood near Tireman. He told me the guy was just walking to the store when he was attacked and beating to within an inch of his life. The motive is suspected to be robbery, but why did they have to beat the victim so? Maybe the article that is linked to in this thread is mainly about property crimes, but it is so much deeper than that.

Btw, I work too hard for what little scraps I have. Property crime is enough. It means I have to work twice as hard to have half as much as my co-workers who live in real neighborhoods [[in the suburbs).

I'm not saying property crime isn't bad, or isn't a reason to move.

And WORSE things do happen, yes.

I'm just pointing out that we seem to be conflating two things here.

**kryptonite** · October-09-12, 11:44 AM

[QUOTE=Detroitnerd;344633]
If you really read the article, it's about people upset and intending to move because of crimes against property, not people.

QUOTE]

But there are many of us who left after being the victim of violent crime, in my case assault and robbery at gunpoint. One of my neighbors died very likely in a confrontation with the same teenagers. The neighbor behind me was attacked and robbed in her front yard. Other neighbors were woken at night by armed intruders. But yes, I'm certain property crime is more prevalent as far as statistics are concerned. Still, don't underplay violence against people as a motivator for many to leave Detroit.

**Detroitnerd** · October-09-12, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by kryptonite

But there are many of us who left after being the victim of violent crime, in my case assault and robbery at gunpoint. One of my neighbors died very likely in a confrontation with the same teenagers. The neighbor behind me was attacked and robbed in her front yard. Other neighbors were woken at night by armed intruders. But yes, I'm certain property crime is more prevalent as far as statistics are concerned. Still, don't underplay violence against people as a motivator for many to leave Detroit.

I'm not saying violence isn't a factor. I'm saying that, judging from the article that touched off the post, and judging by statistics, property crime is the main thing mentioned and the major factor. When I see posts about "people living in terror," I feel I have to point out that we're conflating mugging and burglary with battery and murder. When I read about people "looking over their shoulders," I feel the need to point out that, statistically speaking, most victims of homicide know their attacker.

We have a long history of crime in Detroit, and I'm not downplaying it. But we also have a long history of mythologizing crime in Detroit, and that doesn't help us get to the root of what's going on, or why people want to move.

**Treelock** · October-09-12, 12:35 PM

I moved out of a beautiful home we were renting in Woodbridge, one of the city's more stable neighborhoods, in 2005. My wife and I were looking to buy a home, and while we originally intended to buy in the city, our experience made us decide against it. As the economy began to decline, every single one of our neighbors on our not-very-densely-populated street were broken into. Someone broke the vent glass on my car, the smallest but most expensive window to replace on a vehicle. Then my next-door neighbor, a single woman, answered a knock on her door one day and found herself staring down the barrel of a gun. She was unharmed but her home was cleaned out in what turned out to be a case of mistaken identity [[the perpetrator was apparently targeting someone further down the street). I remember feeling like a sitting duck, and I worried a lot about my wife going running, especially if the sun went down while she was out.

So we left. It was tough. I had a lot of heart invested in Detroit, loved my neighborhood and all the advantages and weird quirks that it brought... but it's no fun feeling like you're just a victim-in-waiting.