Businesses seem to be moving in, why not our media?

**dtowncitylover** · September-16-12, 06:06 PM

Every so often we get the news that a new business is opening or moving into midtown or downtown, whether they are Dan Gilbert-owned or not. This is all great news and much appreciated. But why has is taken so long for TV stations like WXYZ, WJBK, or WWJ-TV/AM to move downtown? Most, if not all, of WWJ's sister stations, like WBBM Chicago, KYW Philly, WINS NYC, and WTOP DC broadcast from respective downtowns. But why can't our media outlets locate downtown/midtown? What will take? I'm not saying we should be like Chicago where you can see the anchors from the street, nut it doesn't make sense to broadcast from a suburb! I cringe every time I'm watching 2 or 7 and I see "Southfield" as the anchor's base city. I will also throw out Hour Magazine whose offices are in Royal Oak.

**Hermod** · September-16-12, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Every so often we get the news that a new business is opening or moving into midtown or downtown, whether they are Dan Gilbert-owned or not. This is all great news and much appreciated. But why has is taken so long for TV stations like WXYZ, WJBK, or WWJ-TV/AM to move downtown? Most, if not all, of WWJ's sister stations, like WBBM Chicago, KYW Philly, WINS NYC, and WTOP DC broadcast from respective downtowns. But why can't our media outlets locate downtown/midtown? What will take? I'm not saying we should be like Chicago where you can see the anchors from the street, nut it doesn't make sense to broadcast from a suburb! I cringe every time I'm watching 2 or 7 and I see "Southfield" as the anchor's base city. I will also throw out Hour Magazine whose offices are in Royal Oak.

They were all once downtown. A pretty good business case must have been made for moving out of the central city at the time it was done.

**Vic_doucette** · September-16-12, 06:28 PM

We had this discussion in June 2011. Here's what I posted then:

The FCC assigns each broadcast station a unique set of call letters [[sometimes called a call sign) and a city of license -- the city the station's programming is supposed to serve.

Beyond that, there's another issue,

Once an hour, a station is legally required to identify itself by mentioning its call letters and city of license, adjacent to each other, like so: "WXXX, Detroit," or "Detroit, WXXX."

WXYZ-TV is licensed to serve Detroit. And as long as the station puts a certain minimum level of signal over the city it is licensed to serve, the FCC doesn't care where the studios or transmitter is located.

There are other issues as well. First of all, it takes a great deal of land to put up a broadcast tower. For the sake of this discussion, let's assume you want to put up a tower that is 1,000 feet high. [[The antennas for channels 2, 4 and 7 are all within a few feet of 1,000 feet tall.) What you don't see as you pass by the antenna is the series of copper radials buried in the ground, like spokes radiating from a hub, that are as long as the tower is tall. This means you will need a plot of land that can contain a circle at least 2,000 feet across.

At the time most these facilities were built -- late 1950s to early 1960s -- a piece of land that size in the city proper would likely been prohibitively expensive, assuming you could get zoning approval and FCC approval as well to build there. [[You can't legally put up a tower just any old place -- the Federal Communications Commission has to OK the site.)

Land in the suburbs, on the other hand, was plentiful and cheap. That's a major reason why Southfield/Oak Park and environs have so many towers.

There's another reason they were constructed out that way. Demographic studies run in the late '50s/early '60s correctly predicted that the region's population center would move to the north and west. If you wanted to be able to reach the population a generation down the road, you'd have to anticipate where they would be and locate your transmitter appropriately. Those sites broadcast to a lot of cows on pasture land when they were first built, but they now serve the metropolitan area well. [[end repost)

There's another issue that most broadcasters in America don't have to deal with, but those in Detroit and a few other places must accommodate.

Ideally, you want to put your antenna in the middle of the population center you serve, assuming that you have a nondirectional signal that radiates equally in all directions. Most downtowns fit that requirement, but not here.

The closer that you are to downtown, the more of your signal that goes into Windsor. That's a nonstarter for economic reasons.

Most Canadian businesses [[save for Casino Windsor and Freed's Menswear back in the day) aren't interested in attracting American business. Most Canadian residents aren't interested in patronizing American businesses. It's really difficult for American stations to sell advertising in Canada. Any signal that goes from Detroit to Windsor is basically unsalable.

**rb336** · September-16-12, 06:37 PM

you buy Hour magazine just to throw it out? or do you just grab them and toss them out whenever you see one?

**MidTownMs** · September-16-12, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Every so often we get the news that a new business is opening or moving into midtown or downtown, whether they are Dan Gilbert-owned or not. This is all great news and much appreciated. But why has is taken so long for TV stations like WXYZ, WJBK, or WWJ-TV/AM to move downtown? Most, if not all, of WWJ's sister stations, like WBBM Chicago, KYW Philly, WINS NYC, and WTOP DC broadcast from respective downtowns. But why can't our media outlets locate downtown/midtown? What will take? I'm not saying we should be like Chicago where you can see the anchors from the street, nut it doesn't make sense to broadcast from a suburb! I cringe every time I'm watching 2 or 7 and I see "Southfield" as the anchor's base city. I will also throw out Hour Magazine whose offices are in Royal Oak.

Why would you expect them to stay in Detroit....nobody else stayed.

Shollin · September-16-12, 06:57 PM

According to wikipedia, WDIV's broadcast tower is in Southfield but the studios and corporate offices are in Detroit.

**dtowncitylover** · September-16-12, 07:18 PM

It's very nice that these media outlets wanted more land for their antennas, which they got. But they don't need the land for their offices. As Shollin implied above, you don't need the antennas and offices near each other.

It just makes sense to put your broadcast location in the central city of the metro area. Southfield is not the central city. It may be a central city in geographical terms, but it's not thecentral city in geopolitical terms.

**dtowncitylover** · September-16-12, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

you buy Hour magazine just to throw it out? or do you just grab them and toss them out whenever you see one?

Haha! yes, sorry for the poor word choices.

**Wheels** · September-16-12, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

According to wikipedia, WDIV's broadcast tower is in Southfield but the studios and corporate offices are in Detroit.

Their adress is on their website.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/W...y/-/index.html

**Hermod** · September-16-12, 07:31 PM

And when the three counties merge to form the City of Greater Detroit, the geographic center of this city will be Northland Mall which can become the governmental center.

Geographic Center: Easternmost part of the city will be the Macomb-St Clair boundary. Westernmost part will be the Oakland-Livingston boundary. Northernmost part will be the northern limits of Oakland and Macomb. Southernmost poin will be where the Huron River dumps into Lake Erie.

Northland fits the bill as the geographic center.

Shollin · September-16-12, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Their adress is on their website.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/W...y/-/index.html

Yes their studios and headquarters are in Detroit like I said?

**Wheels** · September-16-12, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Yes their studios and headquarters are in Detroit like I said?

Just verifing it. I don't believe everything on Wikipedia.

**Vic_doucette** · September-16-12, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

It just makes sense to put your broadcast location in the central city of the metro area. Southfield is not the central city. It may be a central city in geographical terms, but it's not thecentral city in geopolitical terms.

If the studio isn't on the same site as the transmitter and antenna, you have to find a way to get the signal from the studio to the transmitter. That's done via microwave relays. Using those requires that you retransmit the signal via an uplink at the studio to a downlink at the transmitter,

If you have to do that, you increase the cost of the physical plant [[you have to buy additional equipment) and you increase the complexity of your engineering [[somebody has to make sure that the equipment is working properly -- if this stuff fails, then you are off the air).

Along with that, it all requires FCC approval. That gets lawyers and consulting engineers involved. They don't come cheap.

The Detroit broadcast spectrum is already pretty crowded. Finding acceptable microwave frequencies to pull this off might not even be possible. I'm not an engineer, but I did spend 25 years in broadcasting, so I'm not quite ignorant about it. The FCC might not approve it, and you couldn't do it without FCC approval.

Further, if it isn't a line-of-sight transmission of a relatively short distance, it requires multiple "hops," each requiring an additional uplink and downlink, both of which make the engineering more complicated, costly and prone to failure.

As a broadcasting executive, you're asking me to add to my costs, make my overworked and underpaid engineers jump through even more hoops, bring the lawyers and consultants in to try to get FCC approval -- and all of this won't guarantee me even an additional dime of profit or a single viewer.

Oh, and let's not forget the additional expense of buying/renting space and equipment to set up a new studio to replace the stuff that I have that already works just fine.

It just isn't going to happen, especially in today's economic climate.

**Jason** · September-16-12, 08:19 PM

Channel 4 and the newspapers are downtown but I feel like they don't have much of a civic presence.

Channel 4 has a plaza and there are some signs that make it known what the building is but the plaza and the building's architecture are pretty drab and unsuccessful.

It would be nice to have something sort of like Rockefeller Center in NYC, which is well known to have NCB Studios in it, has a great public plaza. And it also has some studio space which overlooks the streets with a big glass window so you can see in and watch them do the shows and then on tv you see the street scene in the background.

**Bham1982** · September-16-12, 08:22 PM

Why would they move? If they already own their site, and have made significant investments on their site, why would they just take a huge financial hit to move a few dozen employees downtown?

Those complexes aren't really usable for anything else, so they wouldn't sell for much. Downtown doesn't have site-ready studio space.

**Vic_doucette** · September-16-12, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Why would they move? If they already own their site, and have made significant investments on their site, why would they just take a huge financial hit to move a few dozen employees downtown?

Those complexes aren't really usable for anything else, so they wouldn't sell for much. Downtown doesn't have site-ready studio space.

Bingo! If it won't make a station money, it isn't going to happen.

**douglasm** · September-16-12, 08:45 PM

Vic.....

....I know they're talking TV here, but the term "media" was used so I'll ask a radio question. Memory says the FCC has been chewing on the idea of requiring radio stations to originate at least part of the time from their city of license [[or within their originating .5 signal) because of the translator expansion under the 1995 edict. Would this have much effect on the Detroit radio market?

**Vic_doucette** · September-16-12, 08:54 PM

I didn't know about this possibility, and I don't really know what it would mean.

**jtf1972** · September-16-12, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

It would be nice to have something sort of like Rockefeller Center in NYC, which is well known to have NCB Studios in it, has a great public plaza. And it also has some studio space which overlooks the streets with a big glass window so you can see in and watch them do the shows and then on tv you see the street scene in the background.

There is a surface parking lot off Campus Martius that would be ideal for such a building. If a television station ever gets wise & gets the corporate office to kick in some $$$, they will easily have the best local television setup in the city.

If you want to seem important, operating out of a suburban bunker doesn't quite cut it.

No matter what anybody says, Detroit was, is and will be the center and most important location in this region.

**313WX** · September-16-12, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

It's very nice that these media outlets wanted more land for their antennas, which they got. But they don't need the land for their offices. As Shollin implied above, you don't need the antennas and offices near each other.

It just makes sense to put your broadcast location in the central city of the metro area. Southfield is not the central city. It may be a central city in geographical terms, but it's not thecentral city in geopolitical terms.

It's the population/wealth center now too [[Oakland County), but infrastructurally Detroit SHOULD be the center.

It honestly feels kind of isolated and disenfranchised being on the eastside or downriver these days with downtown no longer being the center of the region. I get a churning in my stomach every time I hear/see an advertisement about some big event or major company that you would normally expect to be downtown is instead in Royal Oak, Troy, Southfield, etc.

**313WX** · September-16-12, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

Just verifing it. I don't believe everything on Wikipedia.

I thought everyone knew WDIV was on Lafayette in downtown Detroit.

I guess not...

**Gistok** · September-16-12, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Vic_doucette

If the studio isn't on the same site as the transmitter and antenna, you have to find a way to get the signal from the studio to the transmitter. That's done via microwave relays. Using those requires that you retransmit the signal via an uplink at the studio to a downlink at the transmitter,

If you have to do that, you increase the cost of the physical plant [[you have to buy additional equipment) and you increase the complexity of your engineering [[somebody has to make sure that the equipment is working properly -- if this stuff fails, then you are off the air).

Along with that, it all requires FCC approval. That gets lawyers and consulting engineers involved. They don't come cheap.

The Detroit broadcast spectrum is already pretty crowded. Finding acceptable microwave frequencies to pull this off might not even be possible. I'm not an engineer, but I did spend 25 years in broadcasting, so I'm not quite ignorant about it. The FCC might not approve it, and you couldn't do it without FCC approval.

Further, if it isn't a line-of-sight transmission of a relatively short distance, it requires multiple "hops," each requiring an additional uplink and downlink, both of which make the engineering more complicated, costly and prone to failure.

As a broadcasting executive, you're asking me to add to my costs, make my overworked and underpaid engineers jump through even more hoops, bring the lawyers and consultants in to try to get FCC approval -- and all of this won't guarantee me even an additional dime of profit or a single viewer.

Oh, and let's not forget the additional expense of buying/renting space and equipment to set up a new studio to replace the stuff that I have that already works just fine.

It just isn't going to happen, especially in today's economic climate.

OK... I'll bite.... if it's so difficult to move... then how did WTVS Channel 56 slink out to Wixom just a few years back...when there was such a storm of protest by both politicians and the movers & shakers when they announced that they were looking for another site to replace their cramped space in New Center?

The city was going to give them land to build [[and other perks) near Orchestra Hall, or on Campus Martius or somewhere else along Woodward as free land, along with other perks. I would have thought that the howl of protests of them deciding to move all the way out to Wixom, would have had the FCC put a stop to this?

If the FCC didn't seem to care about that move... why would they care about a move back to where many of these stations originated??

**laphoque** · September-17-12, 01:54 AM

Yea I just went on a virtual tour of Detroit Public Television. What a waste of space that is. Huge parking lot, lawns to mow, cheap looking small town brick nonsense. With this city that has artful buildings that are sitting unused. Any civic institution in the metro area that builds new instead of reusing is doing a disservice to the community. At least now they're building out their midtown studios.

**iheartthed** · September-17-12, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Vic_doucette

There are other issues as well. First of all, it takes a great deal of land to put up a broadcast tower. For the sake of this discussion, let's assume you want to put up a tower that is 1,000 feet high. [[The antennas for channels 2, 4 and 7 are all within a few feet of 1,000 feet tall.) What you don't see as you pass by the antenna is the series of copper radials buried in the ground, like spokes radiating from a hub, that are as long as the tower is tall. This means you will need a plot of land that can contain a circle at least 2,000 feet across.

At the time most these facilities were built -- late 1950s to early 1960s -- a piece of land that size in the city proper would likely been prohibitively expensive, assuming you could get zoning approval and FCC approval as well to build there.

Well, why is Detroit the apparent anomaly among large "old" cities for having only one of its major television broadcast stations located in the central city? Seems like NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc., would've all had exactly the same issues of space constraints, cost and FCC approval.

**Hermod** · September-17-12, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Well, why is Detroit the apparent anomaly among large "old" cities for having only one of its major television broadcast stations located in the central city? Seems like NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc., would've all had exactly the same issues of space constraints, cost and FCC approval.

Maybe because those downtowns were also transportation hubs. Detroit was once a transportation hub of one of the most comprehensive interurban networks in the country. Thank Pingree, Couzens, and the various Detroit newspapers and their ongoing war against Detroit United Railways for killing that. The Detroit downtown became irrelevant.