Obama Care - Hillary Care II

[Lorax]

Rb...great list of countries with socialised medicine that don't work well and are declining steadily.

I have personally availed myself of health services in three of the countries mentioned above, and would take any of them over the "you stab 'em, we'll slab 'em" crap passed off as "health care" in this country.

[Lorax]

I have to add this- there was NO CHARGE for emergency room service, medications, etc, in each and every case. And they were helpful, spoke English, and the room I had after the car accident was private, and better than anything I've seen in the US.

You can take your "privatized" United Health Scare, and shove it.

[vetalalumni]

Omaha, I hope you have other resources outside of DYes which can adequately counter, refute, or challenge your posts.

To date, no one on DYes appears to be equipped. This leaves me simultaneously both impressed and disappointed.

[firstandten]

Omaha, I hope you have other resources outside of DYes which can adequately counter, refute, or challenge your posts.

To date, no one on DYes appears to be equipped. This leaves me simultaneously both impressed and disappointed.

You gotta be in on the joke From Wikipedia.

The character is a caricature of news pundits such as Stone Phillips, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and Geraldo Rivera, whose shows focus on "bluster and personality".[4][9] Colbert's character, a "well-intentioned, poorly informed, high-status idiot", is right-wing, egomaniacal, fact-averse [["factose intolerant"), God-fearing, and super-patriotic. He claims to be an independent who is often mistaken for a Republican, but uniformly despises liberals and generally agrees with the actions and decisions of George W. Bush and the Republican Party. This is evidenced by one of the questions that he asks of many of his guests: "George W. Bush: great President, or the greatest President?"[24

Why try to refute a Colbert Conservative, he's the best friend a lib ever had

[firstandten]

I only wish Obama was as socialist. He's not even a progressive as far as the rest of us socialists are concerned.
Give me Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders as president any day of the week.
Sadly, Obama is more of a Republican than George Tush was, just not stupid, or as personally reprehensible, and is proving how centrist he really is more and more as time goes by.

While I agree with your overall feelings about where the economy has gone and why, the reality is that anything important that needs to be done requires an act of congress. Obama has determined the best way for change is from the inside. As much as I love Kucinich and especially Bernie Sanders both are out on the fringe of their party and Sanders is a democratic socialist but votes with the Dems thus there overall effectiveness is suspect. In Washington its not so much of what you personally believe in but what kind of legislation you can get passed. The reality is most politicans run center right to center left, once you get outside of those margins it gets hard to get legislation, especially a progressive agenda passed. I stated a while ago that Obama is a revolutionary incrementalist. Unfortunately you get too much blowback and lose too much political capital if you try to make radical changes any other way.

About the best Obama can do in such situations, is frame the type of legislation he wants lets Congress fill in the details and hopes a decent bill thats not watered down gets passed so he can sign it. If Obama came out with a socialist agenda his effectiveness would be just about zero because he wouldn't get any cooperation even from his own party.

As angry as I could be about him not personally addressing the black employment numbers which are higher [[of course) than whites, I understand when he says a rising tide lifts all ships.

[rb336]

Rb...great list of countries with socialised medicine that don't work well and are declining steadily.

ok, Bats, time for you to put up or shut up. Show me ONE peer reviewed study showing health care in those countries is worse than what we have.

outcomes, life expectancy, infant mortality are all better in every one of those countries

[mjs]

Bam! A thought just occurred to me on why health care costs so much more here and why the government either hasn't ran the numbers or more likely has and doesn't want to use the results to change things. The medical industry faces the same burden every American industry faces anytime we are talking about international competition: Manpower costs.

The majority of a medical budget goes to manpower and Americans get paid more in everything from sweeping the floor to filling the script to running the hospital. A company can usually avoid the manpower problem by going to the higher end of the industry where parts are a higher percentage or by outsourcing, but hospitals can't refuse to provide certain types of care and they can't have a doctor in India listen to your heart, an anesthetist do his job from Russia, or a Mexican nurse draw your blood. The crack against batson losing his job made it all clear. Who ever heard of an unemployed health care professional or even a health manager that permitted the good workers carrying the corner cutting morons? These generally involve a very highly trained work force thats in increasingly higher and higher demand and you can't find those folks at Walmart prices or in Costco quantities.

[mjs]

Germany's supply of physicians is high. Students who meet academic requirements have a constitutionally guaranteed right to study medicine. This fact, plus an excellent and inexpensive university system, has resulted in the country's educating physicians at a much higher per capita rate than the United States. Between 1970 and 1990, the number of physicians in the former West Germany more than doubled, and in 1991 the country had 3.2 physicians per 1,000 population, a higher ratio than most other members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development [[OECD--see Glossary). [[In 1990 the United States rate was 2.3 per 1,000.) With 11.5 physician visits per person per year in 1988, West Germans and Italians went to a doctor more frequently than other Europeans. [[In 1989 the United States rate was 5.3 visits per person per year.) Even so, expenditures to physicians per capita amounted to less than half [[US$193) of those in the United States [[US$414).

German physicians have good incomes [[dentists earn even more), although their average earnings have declined from six to three times the average wage since efforts at cost containment began in the 1970s. The high number of physicians could reduce physicians' earnings still further. In addition, many young physicians face unemployment. The GSG of 1993, for example, mandates a reduction in the number of office-based physicians who treat GKV patients [[generally about 90 percent of physicians join the association that allows them this practice). The law also has the long-term goal of limiting the number of specialists in geographic areas where they are overrepresented.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-4925.html

[oladub]

When unlimited wants meet limited means something has to give. Most everyone posting here is addressing their wants without addressing the means. Waving wands does not usually work.

Canada does not have a national health care plan. It has a bunch of provincial plans although Canada collects and distributes federally collected money to the provinces.

Massachusetts has a virtually universal health care program.

Why make excuses for President Obama's attempt to make our present unaffordable health care sustem universal instead of instituting a single payer plan? Any state can create its own health care plan instead of blaming or making excuses for the President. My first choice would be to make radical changes within our present system to make health care affordable to a lot more people but if the majority wants the government involved, at least state government's should provide affordable health care instead of expanding the present unaffordable system on the backs of taxpayers. The US government is already bankrupt and has yet to provide for future Medicare spending.

We already spend more for government health care, per capita, in this country than does Canada. A do-able goal then is to reduce government health care spending to the per capita level in Canada while achieving Canada's level of universal health care. A shortcut would be for states to adopt Ontario's system down to the last detail. Have an up and down vote. I don't suspect that legal, insurance, and other special interests would like this much. Another problem might be the legislators who depend on the health care, insurance , legal, and pharmaceutical checks for their campaign financing.

[WolverinesA2]

Rb...great list of countries with socialised medicine that don't work well and are declining steadily.

What specifically about Japan does not "work well" in your opinon? Please, give some specific examples.

[mjs]

"On average, Japanese hospitals deny care to one in six ambulatory call patients, according to the Fire and Disaster Management Agency of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications."

"In August 2007, a pregnant woman was refused admission by nine hospitals in a rural part of western Japan, even after miscarrying in the ambulance. In October 2008, another woman was denied by eight hospitals; she was eventually admitted, but three days after giving birth and undergoing surgery, she died."

"In the late evening of Jan. 20, an elderly man bicycling in Itami, a town outside Osaka, Japan, collided with a motorcyclist. After receiving first aid from the rescue workers who arrived on the scene, the 69-year-old was refused by 14 hospitals, citing a lack of doctors or resources to handle his case, as he was driven around in an ambulance. Three hours later, after he was finally admitted to one facility, the man died of hemorrhagic shock."

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...879755,00.html


"Japan's employers should provide mental health services to workers suffering from depression and other illnesses, the government said Friday."

"Health problems were believed to factor in almost 50 percent of the Japan's suicides in 2006. Japan's suicide rate ranks 9th highest in the world . . . while the U.S. ranked 43."

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/1...e-remains-high


And as Hillary's people explain on the State Department's website, even governments realize that unlimited care is impossible.

"While medical care in Japan is good, English-speaking physicians and medical facilities that cater to Americans' expectations are expensive and not widespread. . . Medical caregivers in Japan require payment in full at the time of treatment or concrete proof of ability to pay before treating a foreigner who is not a member of the national health insurance plan.

U.S.-style and standard psychiatric care can be difficult to locate in major urban centers in Japan, and generally is not available outside of Japan's major cities. Extended psychiatric care for foreigners in Japan is difficult to obtain at any price"

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1148.html


Want more examples, use google. How do you propose we get other nation's results without raising taxes to their levels and adapting their expectations of care and pay?

Oladub is right, something has to give. He's also right in that if we get a system like Japan's, we better include a total ban on all related litigation regardless of the egregiousness of the acts. Over here, you deny care and the patient dies, theres hell to pay.

[WolverinesA2]

^^^^

So that's your "proof?" That Japan requires foreigners to pay for health care? That they have a high suicide rate? And a few anecdotes about people dying from lack of prompt care?

Pathetic. I can cite HUNDREDS of examples of American hospitals dumping people in the streets for lack of ability to pay. I can cite you examples of insurance companies canceling people's policies because they are diagnosed with cancer. If you want to make this a battle of anecdotes, the U.S. health care system is going to lose that battle.

New York City hospital falsifies record, lies to cover up the death of a woman who died on the waiting room floor after not receiving attention or proper treatment:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31448793...h-health_care/

Los Angeles hospitals literally dump patients on the streets if they can't pay:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2823079.shtml


Here's some real proof for you:

Life expectancy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

Japan is #3, the U.S. is #45.


Infant mortality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mortality_rate

Japan had the 3rd lowest rate in the world. The U.S. is about 40 countries further behind, just above Cuba [[yes, Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than we do).

[WolverinesA2]

Unpaid medical bills are responsible for HALF of all personal bankruptcies in the United States. HALF.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/

[oladub]

Wolverine, Are you suggesting an affordable universal single payer plan for your state like Ontario's or ar you promoting a national expansion of our present unaffordable plan like Obama is promoting? If your choice is the latter, you haven't addressed how to fund Medicare before even beginning to dedicate additional money for this expansion.

[Lorax]

Source? Are we talking Americans like the United States of America or Americans like all of North, South, and Central America?

Source? The last election.

[mjs]

Wolverines, did I not answer your question? You asked for specific examples and I listed specific examples from Time magazine. I told you that if you wanted more, you can google it. I could list 1000 examples to your 1000, but it just seems idiotic to me.

Liberals generally prefer specific examples. You always like politicians that talk in specific examples and you always speak in specific examples so I spoke on your level as you requested. Conservatives are called cold because they are influenced by broader objective data. The fact that Japan's own government said that Japanese hospitals deny care to one in six ambulatory call patients influences me more than 1000 stories would. I think any time a person uses specific stories to discuss millions, its ridiculous, but I'm more conservative. Engineers trust data.

[vetalalumni]

Liberals generally prefer specific examples... Conservatives are called cold because they are influenced by broader objective data... Engineers trust data.

Broad strokes. Anyone gonna challenge these assertions?

I'm an Engineer [[software). My peers do not fit the narrow bill as presented above.

[ccbatson]

Why don't people get this important fact: Health care and health are not the same thing. The 75 year old diabetic with renal failure on dialysis has horrible health, but extraordinary health care.

[mjs]

Unpaid medical bills are responsible for HALF of all personal bankruptcies in the United States. HALF.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/

Yes, I am well aware of this. Bankruptcy exists so people can get a new start. As an attorney, I've known that personal bankruptcy filers generally don't deserve to be villianized. Some people would love to have a home and zero savings if it meant they could wipe out their debt. You can understand how a bankruptcy is worse for the creditors than the debtors.

Step one is identifying a problem. Step two is finding a viable soulution. Even if we beat up all the rich guys and forced them to pay all Bill Bankrupt's hospital bills, he has still been out of work and will still lose his boat, big screen tv, and rainy day fund. Bad things happen to good people and things do happen through no one's fault.

[ccbatson]

Regarding bankruptcies...??? So? It is not a societal problem, but an individual one. The responsibility for bankruptcy avoidance needs to fall to the individual, if bigger government inserts itself, the incentive to avoid personal financial disaster goes down.

[rb336]

Liberals generally prefer specific examples... Conservatives are called cold because they are influenced by broader objective data... Engineers trust data.

Broad strokes. Anyone gonna challenge these assertions?
I'm an Engineer [[software). My peers do not fit the narrow bill as presented above.

Specific examples ARE data. we request DATA we request actual published, preferably peer-reviewed DATA. all I ever see from the righties on this board are rejections of objective data because it doesn't fit their terribly narrow world view, and as such, it can't possibly be correct

Facts, unfortunately for you righties, have a clearly liberal bias. That is why you all seem to rely on hyperbole and out right fictions

[mjs]

Broad strokes. Anyone gonna challenge these assertions?

I'm an Engineer [[software). My peers do not fit the narrow bill as presented above.

Thank you for presenting another example of a person using a subjective view of a very small portion of a larger subset to misrepresent the set.

Sort of like when someone says if I tell you some stories of people being denied expensive long shot chances, will you agree most everyone is getting robbed by the people running medicine? Like I said, if you want to be like Japan, you better get ready to readjust your expectations because if a politician says he's approving a million dollars in tax payer money to keep Joe Blow alive for another six months, there's going to be alot of people wanting that politician out. Then, you are going to have to live with the fact that we can't always say yes, to the hell with the costs. Of course, you can always say it would have worked if it weren't for those fascists, nazi, knuckle dragging, blah, blah, blah.

[ccbatson]

Rb...start with rational thought and moral absolutes, then confirm with data.

[mjs]

Facts, unfortunately for you righties, have a clearly liberal bias. That is why you all seem to rely on hyperbole and out right fictions

Time Magazine, the Japanese government, and the State Department now all destribute right wing fictions? I picked the sources to your liking. I had plenty to choose from.

[ccbatson]

No need, by example: slavery is evil [[an absolute) involuntary taxation and restriction of the right to utilize individual ability in a fair contractual context is slavery...and therefore evil. Starting from there, all present day liberal ideologies can be easily debated victoriously.