Obama Care - Hillary Care II

[Lorax]

So, we finally agree that the end game is a socialist form of care! Thank god! I thought we'd never get you to admit that.

Who's trying to get me to admit what?

That I'm a socialist? If so, then you're right! I've always been a socialist.

You say it as if it's a dirty word, say, like being a Republican.

I only wish Obama was as socialist. He's not even a progressive as far as the rest of us socialists are concerned.

Give me Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders as president any day of the week.

Yeah, a socialized medical system on the European model, which is enjoyed by millions, is what America should aspire to.

Enough with capitalist pigs trying to squeeze the last drop of blood out of the stone that is our paralyzed economic engine.

The capitalist model has failed, and is now being propped up by continuing a bubble which will only break again. Obama needed to nationalize all banks, and send a clear message to the fascists who brought us to this place, that we're taking back our government.

Sadly, Obama is more of a Republican than George Tush was, just not stupid, or as personally reprehensible, and is proving how centrist he really is more and more as time goes by.

[ccbatson]

Lorax, do yourself a favor and talk to a former oppressed citizen of any socialist economy.

[mjs]

Oh, its a dirty word alright. I thought batson was just exaggerating about you all of this time. Wow, a real live socialist living in America!

[ccbatson]

The dirtiest word....literally as it means condoning slavery

[mjs]

rb336, you can answer any of the questions you want. Any being more than you have answered so far. Haven't your handlers gotten back to you yet on what to say? Its been 48 hours.

[oladub]

Lorax wrote. "Give me Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders as president any day of the week."

Lorax, You are not totally lost after all! Those two do not do the bidding of corporations. Kuciunch was #218 to sign on as a co-sponsor of HR 1207. 218 is the more than half point in the House. Bernie Sanders has introduced the same bill in the Senate as S.604 the Federal Reserve Sunshine Act of 2009. Three co-sponsors there so far.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-604
Kucinch voted against cap and trade and Bush's Wall Street bailout too.

[ccbatson]

Better to do the bidding of the collectivist statist government than corporations? Think again.

[Lorax]

Oh, its a dirty word alright. I thought batson was just exaggerating about you all of this time. Wow, a real live socialist living in America!

At least I'm honest about what I believe in, and make no apologies for it.

After the unfettered destruction of our economy by Tush/Cheney, death, destruction, allowing 9/11 to happen, yeah, I'm a socialist, and so are millions of Americans.

Actually Rethugnicans are the oddity here.

We should have a couple of you guys stuffed and sent to the Smithsonian as an example of what a failed capitalist strategy looks like.

[Lorax]

Lorax, You are not totally lost after all! Those two do not do the bidding of corporations. Kuciunch was #218 to sign on as a co-sponsor of HR 1207. 218 is the more than half point in the House. Bernie Sanders has introduced the same bill in the Senate as S.604 the Federal Reserve Sunshine Act of 2009. Three co-sponsors there so far.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-604
Kucinch voted against cap and trade and Bush's Wall Street bailout too.

I've never considered myself lost. Why? Am I now found?

[Lorax]

Better to do the bidding of the collectivist statist government than corporations? Think again.

You got it!

I'll take my chances dealing with the state over the fascist corporations, thanks.

[mjs]

I'm a socialist, and so are millions of Americans.

Source? Are we talking Americans like the United States of America or Americans like all of North, South, and Central America?

[Sstashmoo]

This person is so deluded and misinformed it isn't even funny..

[rb336]

rb336, you can answer any of the questions you want. Any being more than you have answered so far. Haven't your handlers gotten back to you yet on what to say? Its been 48 hours.

i answered them all -- they were all straw men, and you acknowledged that with the above response. I don't hang out on my computer all weekend like some of you. I actually have a life

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I don't hang out on my computer all weekend like some of you. I actually have a life"

Translation: I was without internet access all weekend.

[rb336]

and quite on purpose. ever see me post on the weekends? they are 99% internet free zones. reality is a kick

[Lorax]

This person is so deluded and misinformed it isn't even funny..

...said while looking in the mirror.

[mjs]

Because its a strawman? Is that the big boy version of because you're a poo poo head?

Ah, push the question aside and jump into your prescripted speech. If asked again, just claim you already gave a clear answer.
You'll make a very fine politician indeed.

The avoidance of the questions was all the answer I needed.

[rb336]

Because its a strawman? Is that the big boy version of because you're a poo poo head?.

you really don't understand the rules of forensics, do you? you have no idea what a straw man is. there was no substance to most of what you wrote, just a bunch of childish right-wing nonsense and non-sequitors. The one question that was almost rational, "Do you want lower costs or fewer denials?" is a question that had been asked and answered in one form or another dozens of times -- there are lower costs and fewer denials in virtually every other medical system in the world. it is what is called a "false dilemma"

[Omaha]

Lorax -- Wow. You consider yourself a socialist?! Who'd a thought? Boy, knock me over with a feather...from reading your many posts, I'd never have guessed you had left leanings.

And now others are calling you socialist to discredit your postings and ideas.

Let me be clear, name calling is so cool. It is more than labeling. It is classifying. It helps sort great American ideas and concepts from those that are alien, subhuman, and oppressive. My hero, Stephen Colbert, dedicates part of ever show to examining the importance of “the Word.�

On the DY forum, the term “socialist� is used in ways both profound and scary. And while some liberal and maybe even conservative posters will disagree with me, I believe “socialist� is right up there with another scary word: "communist." Both words are commonly used together to label an idea that is foreign to the prevailing American ethos: “greed-driven, short-term profit-maximizing, me-firstistic, free-market capitalism.�

The use of both socialist and communist as derogatory labels, sometimes known as “red baiting,� has long and storied history. We excel in the U.S. at many things…including "red baiting." I may even go so far as to brag..."WE'RE NUMBER ONE!" .

And while there were “utopian� socialists, I am not sure whether or not there were “utopian� communists…well maybe the Quakers or some other kind of small Protestant sect may qualify. But I am not sure that benign labeling is what is meant when socialist and communist are freely thrown around on this forum. But I could be wrong, my wife informs me that I have been erroneous in my thinking a time or two.

And here’s another concern. I am not always convinced that the person applying [[or in Lorax's case self-applying) the communist or socialist label is doing it accurately.

Here’s the Reverend Doctor James H. Thornwell of South Carolina in 1850, using both socialist and communist to describe people who wanted to end chattel slavery in the U.S. prior to the Civil War. He must have used them because his understanding of the Bible led him to think of certain people as property. I guess the good reverend understood that anyone who wants to take away another person’s property must be labeled properly as a socialist or communist.

“The parties in this conflict are not merely Abolitionists and slaveholders – they are atheists, socialists, communists, red republicans, Jacobins on one side, and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other. In one word, the world is the battleground -- Christianity and atheism [are] the combatants; and the progress of humanity is at stake.�

Then there’s the instance of a sitting judge using the "socialist" term back during the days when the Industrial Workers of the World went from city to city and town to town actually trying to exercise their freedom of speech by talking about the benefit of [[Oh, horror of horrors) labor unions. The judge was obviously a well-read man familiar with the Constitution. He felt that government has to step in and silence the people [[including death by drowning) whom he calls socialist in order to preserve decent American values.

“We'll drive the goddamned sons-of-bitches into the river and drown them. We'll starve them. We'll kill every damned man of them or drive them, together with the Socialists, from the city!� Judge Davis, Minot, North Dakota, 1912 commenting on what should be done about the Industrial Workers of the World [[the Wobblies) who had come to Minot to stage a “free speech� demonstration.

I am also particularly impressed with the observational and evaluative powers of this FBI agent who was commenting on “communist code words� in a memo to headquarters. The agent had read the September 19, 1942 issue of the Oklahoma City Black Dispatch and found itwas filled with phrases that seem pretty darn “red.� He specifically noted these three dangerous well-known Communist phrases in that edition of the newspaper: “Civil Liberties,� “Inalienable Rights,� and “Freedom of Speech and of the Press.�

You know if communists keep using phrases like that, it is awfully hard to tell the “good guys� from the “bad guys.� Thank goodness we have the FBI to keep us straight.

Which brings me to the problem with self-labeling. I am frankly confused as to whether Dom Helder Camara, a Brazilian Archbishop, was proudly taking on the label of "communist" which others evidently used to describe him. I think may have thought he was using the term “communist� as a badge of honor when he said: “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.�

But as a Colbert Conservative I can assure you that the great Stephen Colbert has been labeled as many things: heartless, self-aggrandizing, brilliant, and the like. As I mentioned earlier, he has been known to label people and ideas himself in a segment he calls “the Word.� I often sit in amazement as he wields English [[and occasionally Spanish) with a fluency and accuracy that is rarely known.

But back to the topic at hand…I thank goodness Stephen has never been called a communist, socialist, or any kind of “red.� But if he is ever labeled in this manner, I just hope the labeling is at least as accurately used as in the quotes that I have shared.

[4real]

Let see now, some like socialistic government over-control, or less freedom and liberty and higher costs.
Some complain that the US is the only industrialized nation without nationalized government controlled health care. I can't think of one nation where it works well, can anyone here name one large country where it works well?

Why don't all the lib's who want socialized medicine start a health care Co-op and voluntarily join it.
Call it 'Socialists for Cheap Medical Care'. See how many people sign up for it and see how long it stays viable. They won't beacuse they know it won't work.

Some people who are in good health actually DON'T want to pay for health care because they don't need it and want to save money, is that a crime.
The libs LIE and include them into their without care statistics.

A good article about how socialism will ruin a nations health care system
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6293

[Danny]

Universal health care now!

[rb336]

I can't think of one nation where it works well, can anyone here name one large country where it works well?

Germany
Sweden
Denmark
Norway
Benelux
France
Japan
New Zeeland
Australia
Canada

[Omaha]

Wow, 4real nice analysis. You are BRILLIANT! Of course the libs lie. They talk about trends in health care insurance costs and say that it is fast becoming unaffordable even for middle class folks. LIE.

Libs say that the average person lives longer and that the maternity death rate is lower in countries with universal coverage. LIE

Libs say that making preventative care available to all through universal coverage is a good way to drive down the cost of coverage… citing the “stitch in time saves nine principle.� LIE

Libs say that the market is broken and insurance carriers competing with each other for market share has not lowered the cost of health care. LIE

Libs say that the poor are without health care because they can’t afford it [[forgetting the emergency room fall back). LIE

Libs say that insurance companies make a profit by finding ever new ways to deny coverage to those who pay premiums. LIE

Libs say that having even one health care insurance option that is from government and not in the short-term maximizing, greed-driven, me-firstistic, free market would ruin all for-profit and not-for-profit [[BC/BS), would ruin the system as we know it. LIE

Libs say that any new plan can be based on benchmarking what works in other countries and not repeating stuff that won’t work well in the U.S. LIE.

As a Social Darwinist I like what we have in the U.S. today. We ration health care based on the ability to afford it. It is a system that benefits the rich and well born…which is as it should be. Let’s keep what we got. It works great.

[ccbatson]

Rb...great list of countries with socialised medicine that don't work well and are declining steadily.

[Detroitej72]

Lorax, do yourself a favor and talk to a former oppressed citizen of any socialist economy.

My soon-to-be father-in-law is from Germany and thinks America would do well to have a universal health care in that countries mold. And he didn't think of himself as "oppressed" when living there. Your right wing talking heads just like to keep the propaganda machine chugging along with their myths and lies.