Obama Care - Hillary Care II

[4real]

Do you want some politician or bureaucrat to decide what kind of care you should receive, when you receive it, and how much a health worker should get paid?

I think Obama's government planned takeover of the health care system will ruin the best health system ever. Get the government OUT of the process, not more involved.
The gov't has fucked up Medicare/Medicaid and they are bankrupt [[in the near future)
Social Security - [[unfunded bankrupt), Post Office, can't make a profit.

How will the DC maggots save money? By rationing services, less service to you.

[WolverinesA2]

Since I get to keep my private health insurance under ObamaCare, and SO DO YOU, I don't know what the F you are talking about.

So, just like right now, the only bureaucrats who will be deciding what care you receive, how much the doctor gets paid, and how services will be rationed to you will be those bureaucrats working for your insurance company. Ever hear of pre-certification? Utilization reviews? Yeah, I'm sure your for-profit insurance company cares more about your well-being than the government does.

[mjs]

I'm sure your for-profit insurance company cares more about your well-being than the government does.

I can agree to that and the polls show I'm not the only one. Lets see, if Americans get healthier now, the HMOs can make the same or better profit margin for the same or lower premiums and lower premiums mean more members which means more profit. If Americans are healthier under a government program, government spending goes down and congressmen lose power and big money contributions. I know HMO's like profit and congressmen like power and larger contributions.

Furthermore, I just got my regular Blue Cross flyer on living healthier. I'll keep an eye out for the first one from the Feds. Last I checked, my running equipment, running and health magazines, and gym membership were all taxed but that "big boned" guy's Coke and twinkies weren't. A little different perspective than Sweden, a country with lower health cost, where the government subsidizes exercise clubs and memberships. If health care costs are high here because Americans live unhealthy life styles, what are the Feds doing about it other than making sure our kids have enough ketchup in the cafeteria?

[rb336]

Do you want some politician or bureaucrat to decide what kind of care you should receive, when you receive it, and how much a health worker should get paid?.

Do you want someone whose $20 million annual compensation depends on screwing you out of coverage for an essential procedure? that is what we have now.

I think Obama's government planned takeover of the health care system will ruin the best health system ever. Get the government OUT of the process, not more involved

considerring that health outcomes in virtually every comparitive study are much better in virtually every other industrialized country, how can you say ours is the best?.

The gov't has fucked up Medicare/Medicaid and they are bankrupt [[in the near future)Social Security - [[unfunded bankrupt), Post Office, can't make a profit.
How will the DC maggots save money? By rationing services, less service to you.

no, they haven't. the bushies "borrowed" [[actually stole, since they took so much out with no plan to return it) billions from the trust funds for these programs. none are bankrupt, and yes, something needs to be done, like eliminating the ceiling on them, since they are the most regressive taxes on the table and that ceiling hasn't been raised to keep pace with inflation.

your "rationing" comment? pure, unadulterated neocon fear mongering bullshit withg absolutely ZERO basis in fact

[4real]

How do you know I will get to keep it, what if the cost goes up or it is discontinued by your carrier because of over regulation and rules.
Obama's Health Care Charade link
http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=...h-care-charade

most employers will likely dump their insurance plans and let employees go for the government alternative. Why not have more competition for better and cheaper service, it works everywhere else. Who would want to spend ten years in school/intern to be told what you can earn.
This plays right into the plan of government takeover of the health industry.

[ghettopalmetto]

Frankly, I'd rather have health insurance that emphasizes prevention--discounts on gym memberships and classes, as an example--rather than the current system that only pays [[sometimes) after the shit has already hit the fan.

If the government insurance plan they put together is more appealing than my company's health insurance plan, I'll have no qualms about switching.

[rb336]

How do you know I will get to keep it, what if the cost goes up or it is discontinued by your carrier because of over regulation and rules.

that one line shows just how credulous you are, falling for the entire republican/big insurance lie hook, line and sinker

[mjs]

Your "rationing" comment? pure, unadulterated neocon fear mongering bullshit withg absolutely ZERO basis in fact.

Its what I'm a little worried about. I want my provider to occasionally deny claims and I doubt most power hungry politicians have the courage to do so especially if it reduces government spending. Especially if they're the type that think government waste is the only thing that can fix recessions. Sure, if I get incurable cancer, they'll refuse to spend $10 million in long shots to save me, but the savings will add $100k to my retirement account. I'm sure as hell not trusting those mathematical retards to provide for my retirement. The thing I love about math is that the rules always stay the same.

[Omaha]

4real – GREAT post dude! Every Social Darwinist on this site is with you. Keep up the story that NO ONE will be able to keep their own insurance if they prefer. DON’T believe those government bureaucrats when they say that.

And DON’T, whatever you do, let on that private insurance carriers are incapable of keeping costs down. They have already picked the low hanging cost savings. And market competition has failed to keep premiums from outpacing inflation [[and worker’s earnings) for the last 15 years. Kaiser Family Foundation propaganda says that the higher premiums are passed on to employees making the cost more and more impossible to afford.

Keep arguing that private sector carriers can’t make a profit off of premiums if they have to compete with a government plan. And keep pointing out that even one government program [[in keeping with what lying BIG BROTHER is saying) will ruin the market and bankrupt the economy.

Keep pointing out that MEDICARE/MEDICAID problem…but don’t say that if taxes were raised at a smaller rate than private insurance premiums were growing…all would be fine.

Just say it’s your and my right to not pay for health insurance if we want to. We’re the heads of household, and we reserve the right to gamble that our family won’t get sick or hurt. And if they do, so what? We can just go to an emergency room and it will take care of the medical emergency.

So keep it up. You posts are inspirational in their clarity and insight. And keep throwing up HILLARY CARE whenever you can. It was scary 15 years ago, and it’s still scary to this Colbert Conservative today. She was going to let government ration care then and its much better that the private insurers ration it instead. And you are right about our great health care system. Those who can afford it do quite well. And as a Social Darwinist, I am always on the side of the rich and well born…just as you are.

Yeah, it was a great post 4real…keep them coming. .

[mjs]

that one line shows just how credulous you are, falling for the entire republican/big insurance lie hook, line and sinker

You mean the way the Dems held income tax in the single digits after we allowed income tax. Oh, I need to go. I told my brother I'd help him with that private insurer that provides workers comp and unemployment benefits. Wait, what am I talking about, that company only existed in my dreams last night. Looking at my check and knowing what my employer spends, I'm rest assured we definently paid into it again and the fact Michigan's unemployment is deeply in the red assures me that insurance in government hands never results in higher future taxes.

[ghettopalmetto]

You mean the way the Dems held income tax in the single digits after we allowed income tax. Oh, I need to go. I told my brother I'd help him with that private insurer that provides workers comp and unemployment benefits. Wait, what am I talking about, that company only existed in my dreams last night. Looking at my check and knowing what my employer spends, I'm rest assured we definently paid into it again and the fact Michigan's unemployment is deeply in the red assures me that insurance in government hands never results in higher future taxes.

Is this even in English? I can't tell.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "best health system ever"

60 million people with no insurance, take their kids to the emergency room and stiffing the hospital on the bill is your idea of the "best health system ever"? It's an atrocity. Anyone with any assets, the hospital goes after them through the courts.

I'd rather see a crackdown on ALL insurance companies, Doctors, Hospitals, Pharmaceuticals, even automotive, right down the line, and especially all these "attorneys" on TV that are continually dangling any potential lawsuit like a carrot in front of everyone.. That is why premiums are so high. Insurance needs to be affordable, and it can be made to be. Putting this in the Government's hands is not the answer.

[jiminnm]

The last reputable numbers I saw was that 46 million US residents had no health insurance.

Of those, about 10 million are not US citizens [[includes legal residents and mostly those here illegally), although estimates of illegals are sometimes higher.

Of the remaining 36 million citizens, 9 million earn more than $75,000/yr [[the fastest growing segment of unisured) and 9 million earn $50-75,000/yr - ostensibly sufficient to acquire health insurance. Also, about half of these 36 million are under 34 and no reliable numbers exist to determine how many of those have decided not to acquire health insurance. It has also been estimated that as many as 60% of uninsured children under 18 could be covered by existing plans if their parents would simply enroll them.

That leaves about 18 million who have no health insurance for whatever reason.

What are you willing to sacrifice, as there will certainly be sacrifices, in terms of dollars or reductions of your own plan benefits to insure this group of people?

[WolverinesA2]

I can agree to that and the polls show I'm not the only one. Lets see, if Americans get healthier now, the HMOs can make the same or better profit margin for the same or lower premiums and lower premiums mean more members which means more profit. If Americans are healthier under a government program, government spending goes down and congressmen lose power and big money contributions. I know HMO's like profit and congressmen like power and larger contributions.

That's not exactly true and I'll tell you give you a few examples:

-Mental health. Blue Cross Blue Shield and other private insurers are NOTORIOUSLY bad when it comes to reimbursements for mental health services. Many substance abuse treatment programs and other mental health providers will flat out refuse to take BC/BS and other HMOs because they get paid so little for services. Believe it or not, the government actually reimburses better for mental health services.

-Autism. Many states [[including Michigan) are now looking at forcing HMOs and other private insurers to pay for autism treatment, which they currently don't do. You're right, insurance companies are financially-motivated to see you become as healthy as possible. But autism developes in young children and cannot be cured. So what are they financially-incentivited to do about it? Simple: NOT PAY. The insurnace company makes profits and parents of children with autism get to go into bankruptcy becuase the insurance companies won't pay.

And I'll tell you something else. Insurnace companies DO NOT CARE about your health. Studies have shown that most people will stay with a health insurance company for an average of 10 years. So really, insurance companies are only interested in keeping you health for the short-term future. They don't care what happens once you're not on the roster anymore. It's why many insurance companies will not pay for bariatric surgery. Studies have shown that bariatric surgery is a cost-effective treatment, but it doesn't really "pay" for itself with decreased medical utilization costs until about 10-years post-op. So think about it, some insurnace compnay ponies up $50,000 for your bariatric surgery, then you switch insurnace carriers five years later and the new insurance company gets to reap all the benefits of your newly-slim and healthy status. And on top of that, once you hit age 65, you become eligible for Medicare and thus you and all your medical problems can be dumped on the federal government.

[WolverinesA2]

Who would want to spend ten years in school/intern to be told what you can earn.

WOW! I wasn't aware that doctors could dictate their own salaries, and right out of medical school too!

The HMOs already dictate what doctors can earn, or do you not understand what the concept of "managed care" is? Doctors don't set the fees for their services, they negotiate with the insurance companies for reimbursement rates and it's the insurance company that's negotiating from the position of strength.

[mjs]

So, if Blue Cross is slapping down Doctor's and denying bariatric care and mental health care and Obama will have the most inefficient organization in the country give everyone all of that, 40 acres, a mule, and a pony, how is he not going to raise taxes? I've said before, I'll pay more if it means more people are covered, but if you tell me any of the proposals out there cover more people and it will cost me less or the same as it would to not cover them, I have to believe you're in love with the messenger rather than the message. Math is math. Has anyone else in your life ever said, if you pay me less than you do now, I'll provide more service?

[Detroitej72]

Since folks here like to toss around figures, let me add some more fuel to the fire. I was listening this week to NPR, and I heard that in countries such as Canada, Sweden, South Korea, Mexico and Iceland, the average price per year for health care per person is around $3400. The average American's cost is around $6000. That tells me that our system sure needs to be fixed.

Also of note, our life expectancy is shorter by a few years and our infant mortality rate is higher. It goes to show that spending more money is not equal to better care.

For all who drink the insurance company kool aid and argue that you don't want politicians rationing your care, do you not think the insurance companies aren't doing this currently?

It is a well known fact that the big insurers have cut people off when they seek care for say, cancer because they claim there were irregularities in their histories. They conveniently do this when folks make a large claim, after they've been paying into the system for long periods of time. Do you realize this is one of the biggest reasons for personal bankruptcy, health care costs?

Anyone who thinks the system we have is fine is just whistling past the graveyard.

[ccbatson]

Less care costs less Detroitej72.

[Detroitej72]

Then how do you explain the longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality rates in those countries, herbal remedies?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Anyone who thinks the system we have is fine is just whistling past the graveyard."

Or they haven't lost theirs yet.

People that think all is ok, are not paying their own insurance. I pay my own and can attest these insurance companies need to regulated hard. They can do whatever the F they want. You have two choices, like it or not.

[Lorax]

Do you want some politician or bureaucrat to decide what kind of care you should receive, when you receive it, and how much a health worker should get paid?

I think Obama's government planned takeover of the health care system will ruin the best health system ever. Get the government OUT of the process, not more involved.
The gov't has fucked up Medicare/Medicaid and they are bankrupt [[in the near future)
Social Security - [[unfunded bankrupt), Post Office, can't make a profit.

How will the DC maggots save money? By rationing services, less service to you.

What's the difference between a government bureaucrat and the socially backward girl on the other end of the phone at the private health insurer [[if you actually get a person)? Not much.

Some posters here are paranoid they are going to be "forced" into some sort of government run system. I've not heard any such thing.

Obama's plan allows all the feedom of choice and red-blooded Rethugnican should love.

Keep your overpriced, gouging, private insurer, since your enormous wealth allows you such so many choices, why worry? Your gargantuan wealth separates you from the rest of us chattle, god forbid any of us should get quality care on par with the uberrich fascists who keep prattling on with this phony outrage.

These private insurers are working feverishly, trying to find any excuse to drop people should they actually have the nerve to make a claim.

We all know Dollar Bill Frist's United Health Scare, cough, cough, is really fristing America one patient at a time!

These so called "private" insurers are nothing more than multi-billion dollar fascist run leviathans with no more interest in health care than a rusted doorknob.

I say put the fuckers out of business and start a single payer system, which we already have in Medicare. Simply expand it to include all Americans. Fund it by ending the Iraq occupation, pare back military spending, and let the Tush tax cuts expire, and it's funded.

Add a penny per gallon gas tax, and that, coupled with the 2.00 per gallon drop in gas prices we can expect from all the oil we're going to get flowing from Iraq, as promised by the Tushies, then we'll have even more money to fund the shortfalls in Social Security- gas will be so cheap thanks to the promises of the Tushies, people will be buying more cars than you can shake a stick at.

God, I should have become president. I've taken the best ideas of the the European Socialist Democracies and solved our health care crisis, and padded the national treasury to boot!

[mjs]

Since folks here like to toss around figures, let me add some more fuel to the fire. I was listening this week to NPR, and I heard that in countries such as Canada, Sweden, South Korea, Mexico and Iceland, the average price per year for health care per person is around $3400. The average American's cost is around $6000. That tells me that our system sure needs to be fixed.

Yes, Ok, I agree, we agree, polls agree, America agrees. Its not the issue. How does insuring some homeless guy make it cheaper? If it costs $6000 to insure someone and the 84% with insurance pays for everyone, math says 100 x $6000 / 84 = $7143 per person paying.

Since we are paying a higher total per insured, we are either paying more per insured for doctors or management or staff or building costs or interest or drugs or equipment costs or hospital food or something. Find that something and you're already half way to bringing us down to $3400. Now, have the 86% pay everyone's premiums and we get 100 x $3400 / 84 = $4050 per paying person.

Bring the high cost factors in line and the Americans that carry the other Americans can afford to pay $4050 to cover everyone because they're used to paying $6000 and excluding people. I know if I were Merck, the only reason I'd bribe most every congressman is if I was looking to gouge. I mean show my support for allowing me access to them rather than individual Americans by generously donating to all their reelections even if they're running against each other.

[WolverinesA2]

Less care costs less Detroitej72.

Health insurance company retroactively drops coverage of woman with breast cancer:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCallPlus...ory?id=4338818

Health Net, one of the largest for-profit health insurance companies in California, had a company policy of canceling the policies of policyholders who became seriously ill with chronic illnesses like cancer.


Three of America's largest health insurance companies tell Congress that they will continue to cancel the policies of sick policyholders:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...020,full.story


CCbatson, you better pray to whatever God you believe in that you never ever get seriously sick, because if you do, your insurance company might very well cancel your medical coverage and leave you to fend for yourself.

That's how free market health care works. If you aren't profitable, you are expendable.

And mjs, read the LA Times article above and tell me that your insurance company gives a shit about whether you live or die.

[mjs]

Some posters here are paranoid they are going to be "forced" into some sort of government run system. I've not heard any such thing. . . .

I say put the fuckers out of business and start a single payer system, which we already have in Medicare. Simply expand it to include all Americans.

I have no idea where that fear comes from either.

[Detroitej72]

Since we are paying a higher total per insured, we are either paying more per insured for doctors or management or staff or building costs or interest or drugs or equipment costs or hospital food or something. Find that something and you're already half way to bringing us down to $3400. Now, have the 86% pay everyone's premiums and we get 100 x $3400 / 84 = $4050 per paying person.

Bring the high cost factors in line and the Americans that carry the other Americans can afford to pay $4050 to cover everyone because they're used to paying $6000 and excluding people.

I suspect a large part of the cost is needless test that doctors and hospitals run on patients. I understand part of why they do it is because of fear of malpractice lawsuits, maybe we could include some sort of tort reform in the package.

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but even I can see a lot of waste that could be trimmed down, thus the savings that you spoke of.

As for the fear of people about being forced into coverage, that comes staight from the right wing talking heads on Fox and the radio.