Cap and Trade Tax vote soon

[oladub]

President Obama's proposed middle class regressive cap and trade tax may be voted on in the House as soon as this Friday, June 26. Besides raising some taxes, its basis is a concern over global warming that was happening until the sunspots went away. This bill is known as "American Clean Energy & Security Act" or the Waxman-Markey bill. A note from myobama.com informs me that "This policy would foster a sound investment climate for renewable energy manufacturers to invest billions of dollars in new facilities and employ hundreds of thousands of Americans in high-quality jobs.

Although the current RES provisions aren't reaching President Obama's campaign goal of 25% renewable energy by 2025, passing this bill out of the House of Representatives is an important step in the legislative process. We also ask that you contact your Senators and ask them to help strengthen the RES in their version of the bill that will come up for a vote in the near future."

According to the Obama administration, the costs of this legislation to American taxpayers to be over 650 BILLION dollars over the next eight years. According to the Heritage Foundation, between 1.2 and 2.3 million jobs could be lost over the next ten-years due to the bill’s regulations. That ought to help drive a nail into our economy.

"The Congressional Budget Office...estimates that the price hikes from a 15% cut in emissions would cost the average household in the bottom-income quintile about 3.3% of its after-tax income every year. That's about $680, not including the costs of reduced employment and output. The three middle quintiles would see their paychecks cut between $880 and $1,500, or 2.9% to 2.7% of income. The rich would pay 1.7%."

-Who Pays for Cap and Trade? Hint: They were promised a tax cut
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html
-House moves toward vote on 'cap and trade' bill 6/23/09
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hou...and-trade-bill
-Al Gore supports this bill
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/24193.html
-Climate bill would be 'biggest tax in American history'...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html
-Will Congress even read it before voting?
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06...y5110850.shtml

[rb336]

got one that isn't from right wingers?

[mjs]

Market Watch, Wall Street Journal, and CBS are right wingers in your book? I disagree with Oladub because I think its a responsibility that has come due as draughts, floods, hurricanes, tornados, diminished health, and their associated wars and famine also cost money, but his sources are fine so I assume his cost estimates are accurate.

[rb336]

Market Watch, Wall Street Journal, and CBS are right wingers in your book? I disagree with Oladub because I think its a bill that has come due as draughts, floods, hurricanes, tornados, and their associated wars also cost money, but his sources are fine.

they aren't in yours? what kool-aid have you been drinking? they are definitively right-wing, and, with the exception of CBS, almost as Goebelsian as Faux

[mjs]

Then, we simply need to agree to disagree.

[oladub]

got one that isn't from right wingers?

Included was one quote from myobama.com, statistics from the Congressional Budget office, and links to CBS, and Politico. I don't consider them to be right wing. Marketwatch and the WSJ are establishment so those are the only two messengers that you need to shoot besides the Heritage Foundation although it would be better to argue with their statistics. I did provide an article about Al Gore's support for this bill so maybe you could borrow a couple of his talking points to justify this regressive new middle class tax. Al Gore and a Goldman-Sachs former partner are the co-founders of Generation Investment Management, which sells carbon offsets that allow rich polluters to continue polluting. Al Gore knows what he is doing. This tax is so regressive that even Omaha would appreciate it.

I forgot to mention that the cap and trade taxes on carbon will cost even more if your electrical utility burns mostly coal. Approximately 80 percent of DTE's annual electricity production is generated from fossil fuel, primarily coal, for instance.

Just write your congressperson and tell him/her that you want Cap and Trade taxes to help the economy, Al Gore, or whatever.

[jiminnm]

Oladub, Rb frequently attacks the messenger and not the message. If he would have read the articles, he would have seen that the WSJ presents a plethora of facts in the articles.

To adopt his approach, I decided that those articles were right on target when I saw that Al Gore favored the bill.

[ccbatson]

This one is going to blow up in the libs faces if they pass it...The costs will be felt and can't be hidden. All based on a myth.

[oladub]

This one is going to blow up in the libs faces if they pass it...The costs will be felt and can't be hidden. All based on a myth.

It may in time. This is just one of many nails that President Obama is putting into our economic coffin but it is a hidden tax and will be implemented gradually. Americans might instead seek hope in some additional government programs. The Washington Post just did a survey concerning cap and trade show that the majority of Americans still support such legislation.

"fewer Americans -- 52 percent -- support a cap-and-trade approach to limiting greenhouse gas emissions similar to the one the House may vote on as early as tomorrow. That is slightly less support than cap and trade enjoyed in a late July 2008 poll. Forty-two percent of those surveyed this month oppose such a program."

"Sensitivity to increased prices is highest among those in households with incomes under $50,000. Nearly all of the drop-off in support for cap and trade or other greenhouse gas regulation comes among people who live in such households. Those in higher-income households were relatively unfazed by the increased costs."

This plan will put working Americans at a disadvantage. The United States should not take action unmatched by China and India, among the world's fastest-growing economies and sources of greenhouse gases. Things like glass, steel, and construction materials require a huge amount of energy to produce. This will give China an even greater production cost advantage producing drywall, glass, cars, etc. which will be able to enter this country without any sort of cap and trade tax.

This Bush/Obama recession is going to last a long, long time with such policies. The House vote is supposed to happen today if you are interested in sharing thoughts with your elected Representative one way or the other.

This will work to find your representative's phone number and email contact page.
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

[mjs]

NAFTA all over again. I'm sure they'll once again be able to avoid half the fallout by simply waiting a few years before saying the Republicans were responsible for it and that will be enough for folks like Lorax to shout it from the roof tops.

[jiminnm]

NAFTA all over again. I'm sure they'll once again be able to avoid half the fallout by simply waiting a few years before saying the Republicans were responsible for it and that will be enough for folks like Lorax to shout it from the roof tops.

Unfortunately mjs, it will be a short wait, but the public has a short memory. When folks' electric bills start escaltaing at 15-20% annually, as will the costs of goods and services requiring electricity, they will blame the utilities.

[Lorax]

Market Watch, Wall Street Journal, and CBS are right wingers in your book? I disagree with Oladub because I think its a responsibility that has come due as draughts, floods, hurricanes, tornados, diminished health, and their associated wars and famine also cost money, but his sources are fine so I assume his cost estimates are accurate.

Are you kidding? the Murdoch Street Journal? Market Botch?
Even CBS has it's moments. LOL!!

[Lorax]

NAFTA all over again. I'm sure they'll once again be able to avoid half the fallout by simply waiting a few years before saying the Republicans were responsible for it and that will be enough for folks like Lorax to shout it from the roof tops.

Hey, I speak for the trees, for the trees have no voice.

[oladub]

Hey, I speak for the trees, for the trees have no voice.

Right. You get a halo. Trees don't have jobs, or financial concerns either. So go ahead and support legislation that creates additional and regressive taxation and will throw more American workers out of their jobs. Fewer trees will be cut down because as the economy slowly grinds to a halt, the demand for paper and wood products will diminish.

[jiminnm]

Other countries appear to be regaining their sanity on the issue.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html

[East Detroit]

Right. You get a halo. Trees don't have jobs, or financial concerns either.

Actually, trees do have jobs. Their job is to turn CO2 to O2 as well as produce shade, etc.

More important jobs than making a corporation more cash.

But of course the capitalists only care about yens and cents.

[oladub]

Actually, trees do have jobs. Their job is to turn CO2 to O2 as well as produce shade, etc.

More important jobs than making a corporation more cash.

But of course the capitalists only care about yens and cents.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml#Y
This is a list of the yeas and nays, The trees and Chinese capitalists won by seven votes. That's right East Detroit, Chinese businesses will not be fettered like US businesses. They already had a labor cost advantage. Now your guys gave them a production cost advantage. I hope you can explain the merits of the bill to your out of work neighbors. Maybe they can catch coconuts for a living. This makes the recession permanent - at best unless the Senate reverses this economic treason. Clinton gave us NAFTA and now Obama has figured out a way to funnel tax money out of the country for nothing.

The bill was 1200 pages long until 3am this morning when another 300 pages were added. Suffice it to say that most Representatives did not read the bill. There was only one copy available in the House. It was up by the Speaker's lecturn. It was, however, posted on the in House internet but representatives would have to leave the floor to read it there.

A note of congratulations to Dennis Kucinich who had the balls to vote for workers instead of his Party.

House passes climate-change bill

[East Detroit]

So, your argument stands that cash is more important than climate?

[oladub]

So, your argument stands that cash is more important than climate?

No, read it again. The world climate has been cooling for the last two years because of the lack of sunspot activity anyway. Maybe if the sunspots come back, the world's climate will start warming up again and help sustain the case for global warming. In that case your stupid bill will still accomplish very little. It just shifts production and jobs to India and China where there are fewer environmental controls than are here now. What you have accomplished is to put Americans out of work and transferred some of that work to smoke belching plants in China. China is also using more of its surplus dollars buying up commodities and natural resources, including forests, all over the world. Of course, Al Gore's new company offers "policy solutions' will be brokering pollution credits. I would like to get into the pollution credit futures market before it turns into a bubble. It's what Al Gore refers to as "Sustainabilty Capitalism".

I'm puzzled why some Democrats like this legislation. it really sounds more like some sort of bad Republican idea which McCain actually did support.
-It adds a regressive tax
-It will kill more jobs than it creates
-It brokers arbitrary credits as Wall Street commodities.
-It will hinder a recovery
-It transfers pollution to China instead of ending pollution

[ccbatson]

Comparing this seizure of liberty to NAFTA is like comparing kwame to Hitler

[mjs]

Wow, Oladub, thanks for the links, at the bottom is another that links to a summary of the bill, the bill itself, the CBO report, and should soon provide a more detailed voting record. This things is massive because it covers everything even vaguely related to the environment, seems to amend every bill passed by the committe in the last decade, and seems to involve just about every department of the government. If I take the time to read the whole thing, I think I could make a career interpeting it.

It raises $846 billion in Revenue and sends out $821 billion in Spending. It includes the entire cash for clunkers legislation and grants the DOE the power to lend automobile manufacturers up to $50 billion for new technology vehicles and their manufacture. Thats double the recently passed amount. It states that oil dependency is a "clear and present danger" to our national security and that the US should be the world leader in exporting environmental technology. Then, it commits to funding and protecting the resulting innovation and pushing for international funding to bring it to third world nations. It provides energy tax credits for the poor, appliance rebates for consumers, and motor rebates for industry. It greatly encourages biofuels, carbon sequestration, and smart grids and includes carbon credit trading methods, government fees, and rules for credit-default swaps. It sets new mandatory standards for light bulbs, light fixtures, appliances, building codes, and even how close trees are to be planted to homes, offices, pools, and more. Its everything including the kitchen sink.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2454

[ccbatson]

Scary isn't it libs? You asked and voted for it

[mjs]

That sneaky little bastard. He's been talking so much about tying trade agreements to pollution performance, I missed that the only thing he didn't put in this bill was any action on that talk.

[mjs]

Interesting excerpts from a a pair of Michigan Congressman speeches in the Congressional Record. Sorry big money for taking away your ability to later tell a different story in sensationalized commercials.

You know, I hope they're true. But I don't think that those statements are going to be true. We had amendments as a safety valve in case it does go up. The CBO and American Petroleum Institute say that gas prices are going to go up 77 cents a gallon, diesel prices 88 cents a gallon. Some energy costs could go up by 40 to 50 percent. We had amendments that said, hey, if gasoline goes up to 5 bucks a gallon, we're going to take off this cap-and-trade. If electricity prices go up more than 10 percent, we'll take off cap-and-trade. If unemployment reaches 15 percent, and it's almost there already in Michigan, we'll take off those job-killing provisions. Were those amendments allowed? No.

Rep. Michael Rogers [R-MI8]:

I agree, Madam Speaker, with President Obama and Warren Buffett: under this bill, "Electricity rates will necessarily skyrocket." Under this bill, we create the single largest energy tax in United States history. Warren Buffett called it "a huge tax, and there's no sense calling it anything else. Very poor people are going to pay a lot more for electricity."

Last night, in my district, a utility company calculated its estimate of what this bill will cost the families in my district. It will increase their electric rates $500 a year--not your statistics from those who don't live in a place like Michigan; $500 a year. And that doesn't incorporate the fact that their clothes will now be more expensive, their groceries will now be more expensive, their school supplies will now be more expensive.

If you haven't noticed, people are hurting around the United States. Adding costs today is absolutely the wrong direction. It will destroy $1,400 in wages for the average family in my district. $1,400. That's a $2,000 swing. People in Michigan, who are already under assault, want to know what they're getting for that $2,000 swing.

Well, they won't get a new nuclear plant. Not one. They will not get the modern electric grid that they need to carry clean electricity. Not going to get that. And they will not get a level playing field with China and India. And--make no mistake--they want to steal the jobs that make up our middle class. They're active and aggressive in doing it. You pass this bill, you won't be able to build anything in the United States of America. Their jobs are going overseas.

They will also see their gas prices rise, on average, 70 cents--70 cents a gallon to families who are already under financial crisis. And who gets their money? Wall Street will. This bill takes millions, billions out of families' budgets and launders it through Wall Street. The same people who brought you the credit default swap in the housing market are now going to sell you carbon offset swaps. Billions of dollars from average Americans sent to Wall Street. That's no solution.

If you want an economy built on foreign manufacturing and financial engineering, vote "yes." But if you still want to live in a country that makes things, in a country that grows its own food and actually produces its own energy, vote "no."

[mjs]

There's so much to post, but I'll just post these last two so people can vote on what was said, what promises were made, and who was told what rather than what the commercials and campaign speeches will later claim.


Rep. John Conyers [D-MI14]: Madam Speaker, I rise in support of H.R. 2454, "The American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009," because, as a nation, we simply cannot afford to delay addressing the cataclysmic economic, national security, and environmental threats posed by global climate change any longer. Although imperfect, this piece of legislation is a necessary precondition for crafting a global solution to climate change. With this vote today, the United States reclaims the mantle of world leadership in addressing the single most important issue facing the planet.

The opponents of this legislation will argue that we are taxing away our economic prosperity and our jobs. This could not be further from the truth. For 22- to 30-cents a day, less than the cost of a stamp, this bill will transform our economy by investing in new energy technologies that will create whole new industries and millions of jobs. All together, this legislation will create 1.7 million new jobs, 53,816 of which will be located in my home State of Michigan. This bill isn't a job killer. In fact, it will unleash a flood of jobs created by a mean, lean, and innovative energy sector.

This bill also furthers other important national priorities. If enacted, this bill would finally break the chokehold the OPEC cartel has over our energy security, provide a lifetime of clean air for our children and their children, and prevent the threats of environmental catastrophes like hurricanes, draughts, and famines.

We must consider the costs of inaction. During the Bush-Cheney years, our dependence on foreign oil increased, average household energy costs went up $1,100, and job growth slowed to a crawl. Throughout this time, the threat of climate change multiplied as the administration ignored reality and the scientific community and turned a blind eye to the plight of future generations.

Although this is not the bill I would have written, the costs of inaction are simply too great to ignore. A vote for this bill is a vote for jobs at home, energy independence, and a livable world for all.



Rep. Carolyn Kilpatrick [D-MI13]: Madam Speaker, I rise in strong support of H.R 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act [[ACES) of 2009. This long overdue, necessary, and needed step will make the earth a better place, reduce our dependence on foreign oil, by cutting our use of foreign oil by more than five million barrels per day. The cost of this legislation is just 22 to 30 cents per day--less than the price of a postage stamp--or $80 to $111 per year, according to the EPA. This bill means more than 1.7 million jobs for our nation, 54,000 for the State of Michigan and 23,000 jobs for the City of Detroit. In order to ensure that we no longer import hundreds of barrels of oil per day, to have cleaner air, cleaner land, cleaner water and a better future for my grandchildren and all children, most, if not all, Americans are willing to make that investment.

This bill represents the largest investment in jobs by our government since the Great Depression. Michigan, and America, must become part of the new technology which is renewable technology. The factories and industries that once built cars and trucks can now build wind turbines, solar panels, and help get our electrical grid more efficient and effective. Replacing our nation's old-fashioned, outdated, outmoded and obsolete fossil fuel based energy production equipment will result in new research, new manufacturing, new energy sources and new jobs. Michigan desperately needs this legislation.

I am blessed to represent the people of the 13th Congressional District of Michigan. The 13th Congressional District of Michigan has the highest percent and number of low income families in the State of Michigan. Contrary to what opponents of this bill say, this bill will not add to the already burdensome pain our citizens have already endured and continue to endure. Among other things, the bill provides $40 per month to low income families to help offset potential increases in energy. In fact, the Congressional Budget Office [[CBO) has estimated that the bill would actually save low income consumers money on their utility bills. The wealthiest twenty percent of American households would only experience modest, affordable rate increases.

This bill will create the largest growth in jobs in the private sector since the Great Depression. According to the Environmental Protection Agency and the Congressional Budget Office, 1.7 million jobs will be created that cannot be resourced to other countries. These are good paying and secure jobs that will restore businesses and bring economic stability to our cities, counties and states. According to the Political Economy Research Institute, Michigan stands to gain 54,000 jobs or 5.4% jobs for every resident in the state. That means 23,000 new jobs in Detroit alone.

This legislation is the work of many Committees and has been carefully crafted to avoid any undue burdens on agriculture and rural families. Farmers spend more money than any other industry on energy, which only underscores the fact that we need new energy policies that will lower their costs and lower their dependence on fuel. This legislation provides farmers and the agricultural industry with unique opportunities to make money in energy, through siting windmills or solar panels on their lands, or growing crops suitable for the production of biofuels. The bill provides assistance to farmers and agricultural businesses as we transition to renewable energy by providing them with free emissions allowances.

This legislation does not force other countries to reduce their emissions. This legislation cannot do that, anyway. It does show the world that the United States is ready to take the lead in the fight against climate change. China and other European countries that have relied on fossil fuels have shown a willingness to start the fight against global warming. This is our opportunity, once again, to be the world leader that we have always been.

The reduction of the greenhouse gases is not only good for our health and our children's health--it sets the nation on a new pathway using Free-Enterprise principles. Polluted air affects our elderly and young people the most. That's why the American Lung Association supports this bill.

This bill is 30 years overdue, if we had started back then, we would not only be much less dependent on foreign oil, but our water, air and earth would be cleaner. For the government to involve itself in the public health, the economy and national security is the oldest role of the government in the United States. This partnership of the government in these goals has added to the quality of the life we enjoy.

We have the opportunity, and I will say the responsibility to grow jobs in Detroit, Michigan and America. We have a duty to promote renewable energy, clean the air, clean the water, clean the earth and deal with climate change. The nation that leads the effort toward clean and renewable energy will not only make our world a better place for our children, our grandchildren, and our families, but it will lead the world economy for the next hundred years. This is that bill, and that is why I voted for H.R. 2454, the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009.