Detroit's Chinatown

[gthomas]

I was thinking, how great of an attraction will it be to see a Chinatown in Midtown? With development plans north and south of Peterboro and Cass Ave, I feel this can really transform that area back to its glory days. I will like to see authentic Chinese restaurants, retail, and residential living surrounding the area. Increase diversity, create an exciting restaurant district, and embrace residency.

What actually happened to our Chinatown, how other districts survived? Having visit San fransico Chinatown and Chicago's recently, I've seen possibility of seeing the same here. Is this feasible?

[neavling]

Detroit did have a Chinatown. It was originally at Third, Porter and Bagley, which is now the site of the MGM Grand Casino. Chinatown moved to Cass and Peterboro in Midtown. The only thing remaining is a tiny, faded sign. The area is now a common spot for drug dealing.

[313WX]

Detroit did have a Chinatown. It was originally at Third, Porter and Bagley, which is now the site of the MGM Grand Casino. Chinatown moved to Cass and Peterboro in Midtown. The only thing remaining is a tiny, faded sign. The area is now a common spot for drug dealing.

Pretty much.

Much of the Chinese community that was in Detroit moved out to the Madison Heights/Troy area, along John R. The reason they all left is because of crime [[there were a string of murders involving Chinese people murdered in "Chinatown" back in the 1970s, which was the straw that broke the camel's back). Until they can see Detroit has gotten a handle on that, don't expect them to return.

NE Detroit and the North End used to have a pretty huge Korean and Chaldean population as well in the 1980s and 1990s, but they all moved to the suburbs.

Meanwhile, Detroit's polish enclave [[along Chene Street) was destroyed by the Poletown Plant and we know where they headed once displaced.

Then we know what happened to Black Bottom/Paradise Valley [[easily the most vibrant black community in the country) with Lafayette Park and I-75/I-375.

Detroit's just going to have to get used to the fact that it will have to market itself as a region of charming smaller communities sprawled about [["SE Michigan") versus one big centralized city.

[p69rrh51]

Pretty much.

Much of the Chinese community that was in Detroit moved out to the Madison Heights/Troy area, along John R. The reason they all left is because of crime [[there were a string of murders involving Chinese people murdered in "Chinatown" back in the 1970s, which was the straw that broke the camel's back). Until they can see Detroit has gotten a handle on that, don't expect them to return.

NE Detroit and the North End used to have a pretty huge Korean and Chaldean population as well in the 1980s and 1990s, but they all moved to the suburbs.

Meanwhile, Detroit's polish enclave [[along Chene Street) was destroyed by the Poletown Plant and we know where they headed once displaced.

Then we know what happened to Black Bottom/Paradise Valley [[easily the most vibrant black community in the country) with Lafayette Park and I-75/I-375.

Detroit's just going to have to get used to the fact that it will have to market itself as a region of charming smaller communities sprawled about [["SE Michigan") versus one big centralized city.

The Lodge freeway also did away with a large piece of Chinatown similar to the Chrysler with Hastings Street. Poletown was one of many Polish enclaves that were all over the city. Yes it was one of the larger of the enclaves. The Poletown plant was not solely responsible, the Ford freeway chopped up more of it in the 1950's. I think the region has been marketing itself just as you have described for over 40 years [[minus the unnecessary sprawl comment). Unfortunately those in charge downtown have taken a ridiculous amount of time to figure that out.

[poobert]

Detroit's just going to have to get used to the fact that it will have to market itself as a region of charming smaller communities sprawled about [["SE Michigan") versus one big centralized city.

That would be fine if that were the case. While some of our suburbs are indeed charming, the majority are, at best, bland. You also don't get the benefits of "small community" life with the vast majority of commercial districts built around 35 - 50mph multi-lane hiways.

I do think many of the Oakland cities, for example, have very nice residential, but the mess of freeways, hiways, traffic, mile roads, and general ugliness of the majority of commerical around here destroys any attempt at a bucolic town feeling. Couple that with the fact that you have to drive virtually everywhere, and much of your country life is going to be spent on 696, communiting 45 minutes from Livonia to Troy.

I mean, if you took someone, from, say, England, and told them "Metro Detroit is really a bunch of charming smaller communities" and then dropped them in Lincoln Park, Fraser, Macomb Township, Troy, or any number of our redundant municipalities, they'd think you're fucking out of your mind.

Regardless, why on earth would the Chinese community come back to Detroit? And if they don't, it isn't an authentic Chinatown at all.

[Hermod]

The Chinese don't "look like us" so they can "hit 8-Mile". Too sad, too bad. It is happening to the Philadelphia and Washington, DC Chinatowns as well. They are moving to the suburbs to get away from the crime.

[kryptonite]

In the mid 70's Chinatown was a true ethnic area, although it was never a large neighborhood. The block of Peterboro had at least two restaurants - Forbidden City and Chungs I think were the names. There were a few other Chinese businesses and grocers on Peterboro and some apartment buildings in the area where a considerable number of Chinese people lived. It seems like they even had a parade or event for Chinese New Year in Chinatown. Unfortunately Cass Corridor was becoming more and more dangerous. There was also Burton International school where students of various nationalities attended. Chinatown had a quaint feel to it, but little by little the businesses closed, Chinese left and the neighborhood died slowly.

[iheartthed]

The Chinese don't "look like us" so they can "hit 8-Mile". Too sad, too bad. It is happening to the Philadelphia and Washington, DC Chinatowns as well. They are moving to the suburbs to get away from the crime.

DC's Chinatown got eminent domained and gentrified out to make way for the Verizon Center and all of the chain retail establishments that followed... which is more analogous to what is happening to Detroit's Greektown than what happened to Detroit's Chinatown.

However, Detroit's Chinatown did probably fall victim partly to eminent domaining.

[poobert]

There is indeed a sizable Chinese community just north of there around WSU campus these days. When I went to Wayne there were dozens and dozens of Chinese families. Not just young guys studying engineering, either. Old women with strollers at all hours of the night. I dunno where they all live, but they live somewhere.

While Peterboro isn't coming back as Chinatown ever, I feel like the days of it being seedy mcshithole are numbered. The Midtown gentrification seems to be consistently spreading southward. I don't know if yuppies can stop the open-air drug market there, which has been tolerated for unknown reasons for as long as I can remember. Somebody usually gets what's coming to them at that stretch at least every year, too. Not a family establishment.

[DetroitPlanner]

The Chinese don't "look like us" so they can "hit 8-Mile". Too sad, too bad. It is happening to the Philadelphia and Washington, DC Chinatowns as well. They are moving to the suburbs to get away from the crime.

About 15 years ago I had a several day meeting that took place in Philly's Chinatown. I found the place to be very dirty, though my hotel [[which I looked up last year is now a fancy loft building) was clean.

There is also a push factor happening to these older ethnic areas. Some just shrivil up and die while others adapt into something else. Remember Greektown was not always Greek. It was German-Catholic prior, that is why the biggest Catholic church downtown is located there and not orthodox. Tapper's alley? Was a fur processing place owned by a company known as Traugott Schmidt.

Cities have to change or they die. Traditionalists don't like to hear this, but its no longer 1701 and Detroit is no longer an outpost of the french either.

[kryptonite]

Cities have to change or they die. Traditionalists don't like to hear this, but its no longer 1701 and Detroit is no longer an outpost of the french either.

That's a valid point. Mexicantown is spreading all throughout old Polish, Hugarian, Armenian, etc. neighborhoods in SW Detroit. Arabic communities are appearing in old Polish areas like Warrendale. Most ethic communities that sprung up in the first half of the 20th century eventually dissipated into suburban areas of large industrial cities. Germans, Italians, Irish, Hungarians, Belgians, etc. all began leaving Detroit before their neighborhoods deteriorated badly. Chinese, Chaldeans, Mexicans, etc. may just follow the same pattern. Once a family has a fairly stable income they want better schools, less crime, larger lots, newer homes, etc. than were to be found in crowded older urban neighborhoods.

[Hypestyles]

...with various businesses and certain cities clamoring to do business with china, i'm not sure why detroit city leadership doesn't try and actively initiate project development in the city.. hire local detroit residents, and encourage immigration to urban detroit..

[[side note- is that abandoned 'forbidden city' restaurant structure still standing? I remember it from years ago having to catch the bus along cass)

[Hermod]

DC's Chinatown got eminent domained and gentrified out to make way for the Verizon Center and all of the chain retail establishments that followed... which is more analogous to what is happening to Detroit's Greektown than what happened to Detroit's Chinatown.

Last time i was in the DC Chinatown [[probably late 1980s), most of the stores were closing out and the city/district hadn't made a move on them yet. Most of the Asian scene [[and there is a lot of it around DC is out around the Seven Corners and Annandale area.

[Hermod]

About 15 years ago I had a several day meeting that took place in Philly's Chinatown. I found the place to be very dirty, though my hotel [[which I looked up last year is now a fancy loft building) was clean.

When I spent a week in Philly in the 1970s, Chinatown was great. When I went again in 1985 it wasn't too bad. By 1994, it was going badly downhill.


If you want a really great and large Chinatown, go to Toronto.

[iheartthed]

Last time i was in the DC Chinatown [[probably late 1980s), most of the stores were closing out and the city/district hadn't made a move on them yet. Most of the Asian scene [[and there is a lot of it around DC is out around the Seven Corners and Annandale area.

Well, I'd suggest you actually go there and see what it looks like now before making such a blatantly false statement that they are "moving away because of the crime".

This paragraph just about sums up the current state of DC's Chinatown:

Once spread out over nine city blocks, Washington DC's Chinatown now comprises a minuscule area that laugh-it-up hipsters refer to as "Chinablock." Even though the community dates back to the 1850s, the most recent census only counted 700 Chinese residents in the neighborhood, making DC the smallest Chinatown in all America. Gentrification happens, right? In 2006, the city of Washington DC spent $200 million to make Chinatown safe and nice for tourists and Virginians. Subsequent side effects included Chinatown becoming much more expensive, really cheesy, and a lot less Chinese. Now it's that place by the metro to grab lunch before the game at the Verizon Center or a way to break up a day of shopping. It's also the place to buy a condo if you happen to be a millionaire who wants a room without a view. It's all quite tragic really, but even more worrisome is the thought that DC Chinatown is the proverbial sparrow in the mineshaft.

http://gridskipper.com/archives/entries/065/65050.php

[MidTownMs]

When I spent a week in Philly in the 1970s, Chinatown was great. When I went again in 1985 it wasn't too bad. By 1994, it was going badly downhill. If you want a really great and large Chinatown, go to Toronto.

You are soooooo right. When I lived in Detroit I went to Toronto several times throughout the year. My first stop was Spadina Ave. in Chinatown, second only to Chinatown in San Francisco where I lived 10+ years.

[detroitsgwenivere]

It irks me when city gov. decides that they're going to attempt to establish some fake, knock off community. Like the whole "Harmonie Park will now be Paradise Valley" BS. That racially motivated debacle still makes my blood boil.

If Chinese folks want to establish a "Chinatown" they will. They don't need ours or City Councils prodding or approval.

[wolverine]

Reason why I believe Chinatowns in places like Philly, NYC, Chicago, and SF have some prominence and vitality is because they have become increasingly touristy. With the constant stream of visitors there's consistent market demand for eateries and vendors. The cluster of business makes sense for Chinese immigrants to stick around and live in these areas.

Again, can't say this with certainty, but based on my observation.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Well, I'd suggest you actually go there and see what it looks like now before making such a blatantly false statement that they are "moving away because of the crime".

This paragraph just about sums up the current state of DC's Chinatown:



[/FONT][/COLOR]http://gridskipper.com/archives/entries/065/65050.php

That is a perfect description - Chinablock. I take the Metro from Glenmont to go there or the Verizon Center. It beats paying a fortune for parking and having to drive down 16th street.

[iheartthed]

Reason why I believe Chinatowns in places like Philly, NYC, Chicago, and SF have some prominence and vitality is because they have become increasingly touristy. With the constant stream of visitors there's consistent market demand for eateries and vendors. The cluster of business makes sense for Chinese immigrants to stick around and live in these areas.

Again, can't say this with certainty, but based on my observation.

I agree and disagree with you on this. I was walking through Manhattan's Chinatown over the weekend and I find it pretty amazing that it has managed to hold the gentrification monster at bay considering what has happened to all of the neighborhoods surrounding it*. Not exactly sure what's keeping the neighborhood from succumbing to the extreme price pressure that has taken down other ethnic enclaves throughout Manhattan, but I suspect that it is in large part political. If there is political protection then it is probably justified by the large amount of tourism that visits the area.

OTOH, NYC also has two other unofficial Chinatowns, in Queens and Brooklyn, both of which are easily among the largest in American in their own right -- they're both probably smaller than SF's but larger than Philly's. Those other Chinatowns hardly receive any out of town tourism other than from those who are already in-the-know, but they are still among the most vibrant sections in all of New York City.

*And to think, there were once plans to raze all of those neighborhoods, including Chinatown, for a freeway...

[313WX]

That would be fine if that were the case. While some of our suburbs are indeed charming, the majority are, at best, bland. You also don't get the benefits of "small community" life with the vast majority of commercial districts built around 35 - 50mph multi-lane hiways.

I do think many of the Oakland cities, for example, have very nice residential, but the mess of freeways, hiways, traffic, mile roads, and general ugliness of the majority of commerical around here destroys any attempt at a bucolic town feeling. Couple that with the fact that you have to drive virtually everywhere, and much of your country life is going to be spent on 696, communiting 45 minutes from Livonia to Troy.

I mean, if you took someone, from, say, England, and told them "Metro Detroit is really a bunch of charming smaller communities" and then dropped them in Lincoln Park, Fraser, Macomb Township, Troy, or any number of our redundant municipalities, they'd think you're fucking out of your mind.

Regardless, why on earth would the Chinese community come back to Detroit? And if they don't, it isn't an authentic Chinatown at all.

Well the fact of the matter is the best Detroit has to offer is by and large outside the city proper, and not in one central location.

[douglasm]

How old is Detroit's Chinatown, and how did it come to form?

The one poster is right. This isn't 1930 anymore, and although new immegrants tend to gather in communities where home customs and language are common, those communities for one reason or another tend to break up after a couple/three generations. In Seattle, the Norwegian community isn't anything close to what it was like 40 years ago [[although the Ballard district still celebrates it's heriage), and the International District is still strongly Chinese, it's an old Chinese.

It's "the great melting pot" effect. As restrictive covenants fall away and the immegrant population becomes more "Americanized", they move away from the old neighbourhood.

[DetroitPlanner]

How old is Detroit's Chinatown, and how did it come to form?

Check out this timeline!
http://www.detroitchinatown.org/history/
http://www.detroitchinatown.org/articles/press/

[Hermod]

Well, I'd suggest you actually go there and see what it looks like now before making such a blatantly false statement that they are "moving away because of the crime".

What part of the Asian scene has largely moved out into the suburbs is false? Have you ever been to Eden Center out at Seven Corners? Have you traveled through the commercial parts of Annandale? My wife is Chinese and I have schlepped through about every Asian shopping district in suburban Maryland and Virginia. In the 1980s, the grocery stores and schlock shops were bailing out of the DC Chinatown. Many of the Chinese owners in the Eden Center used to have places downtown.

[Bham1982]

OTOH, NYC also has two other unofficial Chinatowns, in Queens and Brooklyn, both of which are easily among the largest in American in their own right -- they're both probably smaller than SF's but larger than Philly's. Those other Chinatowns hardly receive any out of town tourism other than from those who are already in-the-know, but they are still among the most vibrant sections in all of New York City.

The biggest Chinatowns in the U.S. don't receive any tourism. The biggest, by far, are Monterey Park [[east of LA) and Flushing, Queens. These two places [[and Sunset Park, Brooklyn is close behind) make Manhattan, Toronto, or SF Chinatowns look like tiny tourist trap potemkin villages.

Flushing is more of an urban-style Chinatown, but different from the traditional Chinatowns. It looks more like a mini-Hong Kong. Very glassy and glitzy new money style. Monterey Park is similar, but in a suburban format [[strip malls, tract homes, but fairly dense for a suburb).

NYC, LA, Toronto, and the Bay Area all have many Chinatowns scattered about. For NYC, I can think of at least six [[Manhattan, Sunset Park, Avenue U, 18th Avenue, Flushing, Elmhurst).