Another day, another fire.

**hamtown mike** · August-20-12, 01:52 PM

High above, in my suburban work-perch, I can see another fire at what I presume to be the Packard. It was on fire for a while yesterday as well.

We have all heard about the health risks of taking it down, but what about the health risks out allowing it to stand and burn?

How do we do it? How do WE take this thing down?

By WE I mean the people, not the city or the owner. Can WE contact the EPA and ask for federal intervention? Would doing so allow us to side step all the local bureaucracy and finger pointing?

Or should we simply accept the fact that our lords and ladies know what's best for us as a thin veil of asbestos covers the land?

**Meddle** · August-20-12, 01:56 PM

I say put it on a No-Go zone for fire and rescue. You enter at your own risk. Post conspicuous notices. If you get hurt or die .... tough. If it burns ... tough.

**hamtown mike** · August-20-12, 01:59 PM

It's already on the no go for fire, that is no entering of building and only suppressing when it threatens other adjacent structures.

**p69rrh51** · August-20-12, 02:01 PM

All you need is money to remove the plant!

**hamtown mike** · August-20-12, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by p69rrh51

All you need is money to remove the plant!

Not sure it's that easy with lingering ownership issues. Could the EPA come in on a federal level and say "We don't care who owns it, we're taking it down!"

**hamtown mike** · August-20-12, 03:04 PM

another plume. 3rd big burst today. Is it just one fire that dies out and then reignites?

**Richard** · August-20-12, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by hamtown mike

How do we do it? How do WE take this thing down?

By WE I mean the people, not the city or the owner. Can WE contact the EPA and ask for federal intervention? Would doing so allow us to side step all the local bureaucracy and finger pointing?

Or should we simply accept the fact that our lords and ladies know what's best for us as a thin veil of asbestos covers the land?

We the people take it down ? who do you think is lighting the fires and taking it down by stripping it piece by piece,why should the EPA pay to take it down when it is you the people destroying it ,then you want the feds to clean up the rubble that is left over when playtime is done? Really?

There is no more contamination there per sq ft then any other house that was built prewar,maybe the EPA can come in and demolish every structure that was built after 1970 then there will be no worries in the future.

**Wheels** · August-20-12, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

There is no more contamination there per sq ft then any other house that was built prewar.

You really don't have a clue do you? Have you ever been there? Do you know any of the history other then the ruin porn? Do you have any real data to back that statement?

To say there is enough toxic material there to burn a hole to china is not much more far fetched then your statement.

**Richard** · August-20-12, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

You really don't have a clue do you? Have you ever been there? Do you know any of the history other then the ruin porn? Do you have any real data to back that statement?

To say there is enough toxic material there to burn a hole to china is not much more far fetched then your statement.

Since I paid to have an environmental done,yea I have a lot more then just a clue.

Also your state and the EPA did an environmental on it and that part is public access knowledge,for somebody that had never been there I have more structural and technical knowledge and what it would take to put it back in shape then 99% of the people that go there to spray paint on the walls or light fires.

**Wheels** · August-20-12, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Since I paid to have the environmental done,yea I have a lot more then just a clue.

If you have data how about sharing it? If it say's there iis no toxic waste there it is total BS.

**p69rrh51** · August-20-12, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by hamtown mike

Not sure it's that easy with lingering ownership issues. Could the EPA come in on a federal level and say "We don't care who owns it, we're taking it down!"

Well wouldn't it take money to take over the ownership of the buildings, and then just like the Hudson Plant debacle decades ago nobody wants to touch it as the costs will most likely exceed estimates again needing more money. So as it goes if you want it gone cough up the cash!

**Richard** · August-20-12, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

If you have data how about sharing it? If it say's there iis no toxic waste there it is total BS.

Now your putting words in my post ,I never said there was no toxins,I stated that there were equal to any other house or structure of that vintage.

If you want my data sorry it is going to cost you because I had to pay for it,it is a bit more involved then the EPA or states version as funding requirements are different.

But if you go here you can read the state and county's version and see that a good percentage of the problems there are not related to the owner but others that choose to use it as a dump site.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/pha/pha.asp?docid=436&pg=1

It is three pages follow the link that reads next section .I am not here because I am bored with life ,if that was the case I would be on some tropical island drinking margaritas next to some bronzed ladies and not worrying about some plant in Detroit,Michigan that could be providing jobs and education to a city that needs it but I guess if you have a job and are educated what does it matter anyways just burn it down.

**Wheels** · August-20-12, 09:20 PM

That report iis from 1997. It states that many windows are broken. HAHAHAHAHA! You really don't have a clue!!!

**Hamtragedy** · August-20-12, 09:52 PM

Nice try hamtownmike. Instead of this inquiry resulting in any kind of constructive conversation, [[should we be allowed to assume such a thing on-line

), it just turned angry and full of useless negative energy, which is exactly why the 60 years since the plant closed, and the 60 years since we have not had reliable mass transit, not a fucking thing has been done with either.

It would be nice if "it will never happen" could on a mass fucking scale be "IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN", as the first thing out of peoples' mouths. But no, energy draining worm-boy here, who may or may not have to breathe this crap plus the incinerator on a daily basis has to ram a giant "I have a study here which is exactly why this will never happen and it's 15 years old so nah." Screw you and your study. YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I'd much rather hear about the Hudson Plant debacle, which now sounds infinitely more intriguing than your study from the 90s. Thanks for ruining what could have been a good thread. You suck. And by the way, I love huffin' tires.

**Gannon** · August-20-12, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

That report iis from 1997. It states that many windows are broken. HAHAHAHAHA! You really don't have a clue!!!

You don't have any reading comprehension at all, do you?!

He said he wouldn't share the report HE spent money on, and shared the public one.

Between the two of ya, one has a clue...and it ain't you, Wheels...or any of your other multiple personalities.

**hamtown mike** · August-21-12, 10:45 AM

What I was trying to get at is, does the EPA [[or any other federal agency) have the authority to sieze a property that is dangerous to the community?

**hamtown mike** · August-21-12, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

... when it is you the people destroying it...

Yes, all 800,000 Detroiters have each independently gone into the Packard with a torch to cut I beams. I remember the first time I took my 3-year old down to the Packard to teach her how to cut. She kept on swearing she had enough acetylene. She prefers to run a really high mix. She'll learn. Made her hand cut the rest after she ran out.

"You the people" logic not only implies that each Detroit resident has scrapped within the Packard but that each one has caused a fire while there. Further, the logic states that each Detroit resident deserves to be exposed to the toxic fumes from the 799,000 other fires that they did not light.

Regardless of toxicity, every structure built pre war does not go up in flames once a week.

I truly believe if it were not for the environmental clean up/abatement costs, the entire complex would have been razed years ago.

**hamtown mike** · August-21-12, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

There is no more contamination there per sq ft then any other house that was built prewar,maybe the EPA can come in and demolish every structure that was built after 1970 then there will be no worries in the future.

Honestly, if any structure, no matter the age, has been on fire 20 times and has not been repaired I'd welcome the EPA and their army of dozers any day!

**hamtown mike** · August-21-12, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Hamtragedy

...who may or may not have to breathe this crap...

With phrases like "Your state" I don't think he lives here. I don't think he heads home 75, 94 or 96 wondering if the fire causing the plume has spread to his house. I don't think he considers putting on a mask while in his own backyard to keep from breathing in asbestos, burning tires and other fun gobbledy-goop.

No, I think we have an out-of-state Monday morning quarter back that might have a semi-vested interest in the structure [[having performed an independent study seemingly on par with an epa phase 2 analysis or greater) who is showing more interest in laying blame [[somehow forgetting to blame Michael Bay for slamming a transformer into the side of the thing) instead of finding a solution.

**Wheels** · August-21-12, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

You don't have any reading comprehension at all, do you?!

He said he wouldn't share the report HE spent money on, and shared the public one.

Between the two of ya, one has a clue...and it ain't you, Wheels...or any of your other multiple personalities.

What else is there to comprehend? He posted a 15 year old study that has absolutely no relevance to the current state of the complex. The rest of his rant is nothing but hot air very similar to most of your posts!

**Richard** · August-21-12, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by hamtown mike

With phrases like "Your state" I don't think he lives here. I don't think he heads home 75, 94 or 96 wondering if the fire causing the plume has spread to his house. I don't think he considers putting on a mask while in his own backyard to keep from breathing in asbestos, burning tires and other fun gobbledy-goop.

No, I think we have an out-of-state Monday morning quarter back that might have a semi-vested interest in the structure [[having performed an independent study seemingly on par with an epa phase 2 analysis or greater) who is showing more interest in laying blame [[somehow forgetting to blame Michael Bay for slamming a transformer into the side of the thing) instead of finding a solution.

I am a patient man I will wait to hear what your viable solution is, unless of course you are apart of that crowd that believes anybody under the age of 40 ,is an outsider,and has absolutely no reading comprehension and I would rather see Detroit burn to the ground before outsiders help or invest in Detroit but feel free to keep sending those fed funds to pay for it all.

Are you one of those types that are standing in the way of those trying to do good in the city? It sure sounds like it the way you are acting out in your writings,nice stellar representative of Detroit while living in Hamtramck.

So what is your solution? You have been living in the city maybe for how many years and now you want to try and figure out how to demolish Packard?Why because like some others who believe that it is their right to paint,destroy and pretty much demolish anything that is available because they cannot come up with a viable plan and damn if anybody else is going to.

Please tell me that you have at the very minimum supported your local fire department and stood by them in their time of need ,you have contacted your representatives concerning the bills in front of them concerning scrapping and an RTA because those are part of the solution, right?

I have never met you but I know what you look like because it is a common face that I see across the country of those who left the city and have nothing but bad to say about the city and its residents without having a clue what they are talking about.

So I will patiently wait while you reveal your plan for a viable reuse for Packard based on community needs and why it would be a good fit.Please feel free to include and cover the costs for the little details like traffic impact,neighborhood impact,structural analysis,available workforce,it all has to be detailed down to how many sheets of glass it would take to replace the windows and how much,and would it be more cost effective to get together with other large building owners and purchase an existing window company locally or maybe they would even partially fund a window assembly line within the plant , as you may or may not be able to see it takes bit more then looking at a building and saying it is not worth it demo it,but then again if you paid attention to any of my past posts you would be a little more educated as to what options are there,but it is easier to throw stones then to replace glass.

No the EPA cannot come in and demo it for so many reasons but the biggest one is the spelled out in the link for you that I provided and you choose to instead of reading it and comprehend what it was saying to diss me. It is not considered a Superfund site the state does not even consider it a brownfield .Read in the same link and look at the results of the Globe building environmental,Packard burning is the least of your worries unless you like jumping on bandwagons.

So how much time do you think that you will need before you can present your solution for Packard? Keep in mind that it is not just about Packard if you can understand what that means.

**Richard** · August-21-12, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

What else is there to comprehend? He posted a 15 year old study that has absolutely no relevance to the current state of the complex. The rest of his rant is nothing but hot air very similar to most of your posts!

I will say the same thing to you

So how much time do you think that you will need before you can present your solution for Packard?

Or do you just enjoy talking crap while standing in the way of others because you surly are not part of any solutions.

**Wheels** · August-21-12, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

I will say the same thing to you

So how much time do you think that you will need before you can present your solution for Packard?

Or do you just enjoy talking crap while standing in the way of others because you surly are not part of any solutions.

I have never stated I have any type of PRETEND solution for Packard or any other of Detroit's many pitfalls.

If someone has a solution you will not find me standing in the way but I might join in if it sounded credible and not just a keyboard quarterback spewing hot air.

**Hypestyles** · August-21-12, 02:26 PM

ah.. too bad the new Godzilla movie [[and Pacific Rim) weren't filmed here. The producers/studios could have offered a sweet deal to have the Packard and other dangerous hulks destroyed on film, then add giant monsters and robots in post-production..

**hamtown mike** · August-21-12, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

I am a patient man I will wait to hear what your viable solution is,

One of Detroit's biggest problems is not knowing when to cut its losses. Why must there be a viable solution? I fear no true viable solution exists outside of the zombie survival theme park with a whole host of pre-participation waivers. [[Though I believe that solution was offered up in parody.) My initial inquiry hints at my solution- demolition for the greater good.

If you truly knew what I "look like" you would know that I too am an under 40 outsider who has invested thousands from my personal savings to improve my little neck of the woods.

Awfully long fingers to be pointing from Tampa. Come on up. Get your hands dirty. Pick up shit filled diapers off a site you're trying to improve.