Winery on Belle Isle?

[grumpyoldlady]

I live in west central Minnesota and there are a number of great wineries here. Carlos Creek Winery is one. We have super cold winters, can have very hot summers and lots of wind. These wineries seem to do just fine, and produce some top notch wine.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Pretend I know nothing about wine production.

To turn a decent profit, wouldnt a winery in a place with such a broad spectrum of seasonal climate need a ton of acreage, to produce enough grapes to make enough wine?

[KOMPOST]

You'll have to help me out here, because I'm a bit confused.
1) What's "wrong" with Belle Isle that it needs to be "fixed"? I spend a lot of time there [[less in the winter) and am honestly scratching my head at some of the comments here. Are there days when trash hits a critical mass in the cans? Yes. Are there evenings when the bass is loud and the youngins are riled up? Yes.
But, as someone pointed out, there are always areas to get away from that to find a space more suitable for your recreational needs. Hence, a "public park".
2) Should the city even consider allowing someone to start a private business on Belle Isle? No. Period.
This line from the above article especially irked me: "The land, now, is unmowed grass that stretches about waist high. Aside from a trail leading out to the lighthouse, the space is unused." Says who? Dustin Block at mlive? Sorry to disappoint you guys, but that space is used. By tax-paying residents. Getting away from other parts of the island. Walking dogs. Picnicking. Hiking.
And what, pray tell, does "waist-high grass" have to do with anything?
3) Should the island be turned into a state park and an entrance fee imposed? Is this even legal? Wouldn't Detroiters have a say?
Anyway, like I said, I'm scratching my head about a lot of the comments here about this park.
A public park. For the people.

[Richard]

Pretend I know nothing about wine production.

To turn a decent profit, wouldnt a winery in a place with such a broad spectrum of seasonal climate need a ton of acreage, to produce enough grapes to make enough wine?

1 acre of land can give you enough good quality grape for only about 100 cases, or 1200 bottles of wine. Even if you sell it for $50 each, you are looking at $600K earning from that acre, before paying for all of the labor, management, processing, bottling cost, marketing, and shipping.

It takes up to 5 years to be able to produce,pest control run off into the river?

One of the pushing points is allowing people to pick at will,okay, so then you have those who would rip the grapes off damaging the vine,so then fences will be next to protect the crop so you will end up with a fenced in view.

Maybe if the city had a viable parks and recreational department this would be a non issue and it all could be self supporting.

[jpbollma]

I think the winery would likely have to sell wines from other Michigan based wineries to turn a profit.

[Zacha341]

Hah! That's a thought - but no I should not be encouraging brewing it up. But once in a while a good beer from a micro brewery. Umm, yes!

They could grow hops and other grains and do a brewery/distillery, though

[Zacha341]

Yeah, I was on Put In Bay isle lately and they have an old vineyard so old it can only be harvested by hand as it's too narrow for commercial harverster machines and what not. I think they just keep it for tourism purposes... it's alot that goes into the process.

Pretend I know nothing about wine production.

To turn a decent profit, wouldnt a winery in a place with such a broad spectrum of seasonal climate need a ton of acreage, to produce enough grapes to make enough wine?

[Gistok]

You'll have to help me out here, because I'm a bit confused.
1) What's "wrong" with Belle Isle that it needs to be "fixed"? I spend a lot of time there [[less in the winter) and am honestly scratching my head at some of the comments here. Are there days when trash hits a critical mass in the cans? Yes. Are there evenings when the bass is loud and the youngins are riled up? Yes.
But, as someone pointed out, there are always areas to get away from that to find a space more suitable for your recreational needs. Hence, a "public park".
2) Should the city even consider allowing someone to start a private business on Belle Isle? No. Period.
This line from the above article especially irked me: "The land, now, is unmowed grass that stretches about waist high. Aside from a trail leading out to the lighthouse, the space is unused." Says who? Dustin Block at mlive? Sorry to disappoint you guys, but that space is used. By tax-paying residents. Getting away from other parts of the island. Walking dogs. Picnicking. Hiking.
And what, pray tell, does "waist-high grass" have to do with anything?
3) Should the island be turned into a state park and an entrance fee imposed? Is this even legal? Wouldn't Detroiters have a say?
Anyway, like I said, I'm scratching my head about a lot of the comments here about this park.
A public park. For the people.

Apparently you must not have had any ancestors that told you about Belle Isle in the glory days... where the canal banks were lined with strollers [[rather than dead branches and scrub)... where there were flowers an floral areas all over the park [[rather than just behind wrought iron gates that have to be locked up every night at the Conservatory). Perhaps you don't remember listening to any music at the still extant bandshell [[I have vague recollections from childhood of music playing there). Perhaps you don't remember the Belle Isle Zoo WHEN IT WAS STILL OPEN.... Perhaps you don't remember ever being in the Belle Isle Boat Club [[before it got to the sad shape it's in today. Perhaps you haven't driven thru the forest on the eastern end of the island will fallen trees, and marshy land that looks like you could see Adrienne Barbeau and the Swamp Creature behind some creepy looking moss covered trees.

And perhaps you haven't seen any images of the way the island looked in the early 20th century, as seen in some of these post card images....
http://pinterest.com/puredetroit/detroit-belle-isle/

Even the current city government says the island needs $150 million to bring it up to its' former glory.

Unless you prefer it the way it is now...

[stromberg2]

Is the water slide and giant yellow slide still in use?

Stromberg2

[DetroitCityCellars]

That sounds like a cool idea, but SE Michigan doesn't have quite the right climate for a production vineyard, I think. The problem is the scorching hot summers, which annihilate grape crops. Grape vines are delicate plants, and favor very temperate and calm climates. They don't even like wind that much, which would be a pretty big problem at the lighthouse site.

They could grow hops and other grains and do a brewery/distillery, though

SE Michigan has an outstanding climate for growing grapes, especially Detroit. The site on Belle Isle is outstanding specifically because of its airflow and ability to mitigate disease pressure. Check your history, Monroe used to be Michigans wine country prior to prohibition.

[DetroitCityCellars]

They keep trying to come up with ideas to develop Belle Isle. Somehow, to get developers in there to turn it into a school for boating, or a green campus with a high-rise dorm, or this, or that. And it's not about improving Belle Isle. It's all about making money. Somebody else, coming in, using a public asset, to make money.


For them.

It always sounds good at first, though.

[[Oh, and, it's a good thing he wants to use our public park. There's certainly no vacant land left in the city anywhere ... )

Its called a public/private partnership which has occured on the island numerous times.

Regarding vacant land in the city, I would LOVE to plant other vineyards throughout Detroit, but the city will not zone the properties for agricultural purposes.

The SE tip of Belle Isle is the best micro-climate within the city to grow high quality wine grapes.

[DetroitCityCellars]

Already-successful businessmen want to be given precious city recreational land for for-profit business in city where tens of thousands of vacant lots are screaming to be put back on tax rolls.

Yeah, obviously that's what they want. I want me some free soil too! And I ain't even rich!

Really? Free Soil? Is it really that simple? We have proposed to lease the land from the city with strict covenants and benchmarks in place. So no, we are not looking to be "given" precious city land.

As for the vacant lots, I hear you. Talk to your city leaders and get them to start zoning land for Agricultural purposes.

[DetroitCityCellars]

OK, when you say "garbage dump" you disqualify yourself.

I wish I could press a button and trot out every "profit-making" plan that's been proposed for Belle Isle over the years.

As for this wino, why doesn't he pull a Hantz and put for the land? Oh, he wants some sweetheart deal with the support of the Michigan Economic Development Corporation? Oh, that's fine then. Go ahead. Do whatever you want.

Because this is Detroit. We should change our motto to "At least dat''s sumptin!"

When you insult people that you've never met, you disqualify yourself.

If you'd like to educate yourself a bit more regarding this topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7YHr...e_gdata_player

[DetroitCityCellars]

If I were an outstate businessperson lobbying for a sweetheart deal that got me 40 acres of city land, I might just be clueless enough to enlist the help of Charles Pugh.

I was born in Southfield and raised in Waterford. My business partner is from Wyandotte. My parents and my grandparents are all from Detroit.

Its mindless attacks and insults from self righteous people like yourself that contribute to the continued lack of muted growth in Detroit.

[townonenorth]

I was born in Southfield and raised in Waterford. My business partner is from Wyandotte. My parents and my grandparents are all from Detroit.

Its mindless attacks and insults from self righteous people like yourself that contribute to the continued lack of muted growth in Detroit.

Glad that your'e here, DC Cellars. You should forget about Belle Isle and go for a suburban location. Screw these guys.

In any event, it's now just going to become a forum battle between the grape grower and the grape thrower.

Come to think of it, maybe there's a market for Detroit-centric grapes, considering the history of grape throwing around here.

[corktownyuppie]

Glad that your'e here, DC Cellars. You should forget about Belle Isle and go for a suburban location. Screw these guys.

In any event, it's now just going to become a forum battle between the grape grower and the grape thrower.

Come to think of it, maybe there's a market for Detroit-centric grapes, considering the history of grape throwing around here.

I agree with townonenorth that I'm glad you're here. I disagree that you should forget about Belle Isle. I know it's frustrating, but it will be worth it when it happens. And I think we can find away to add some much needed tourist revenue to fund island operations with your help...and without having to alienating the people who currently enjoy it.

Like I said, it's a big island. There's already two yacht clubs, a shuttered casino and a shuttered zoo. There'll be room for everyone. Please keep pushing for it.

[detroitsgwenivere]

I was born in Southfield and raised in Waterford. My business partner is from Wyandotte. My parents and my grandparents are all from Detroit.

Its mindless attacks and insults from self righteous people like yourself that contribute to the continued lack of muted growth in Detroit.

I think he was referring to the Hantz guy.

DN?

Try not to take all of this banter so personally cellar guy. We've been discussing belle isle something hardcore since the consent agreement was proposed. People are scared of losing a place they love to change, let alone to developers with sweetheart deals.

Belle isle "the way it used to be" has been non-existant my entire life, so I cannot relate to people pinning for the old days. I've spent 3 decades finding the best parts of the BI of now. And I've also spent that time watching city government hack our city to pieces allowing horrid planning decisions,most times the result of hooking up themselves and their friends. So please forgive people like me when we are credulous of these development scenarios. We really can't help ourselves.

[Gistok]

Detroitsgwenivere... Belle Isle as it was... was non-existent my lifetime as well. I can only recall as a very young child.... 3 things... the Conservatory, the Aquarium, and listening to music at the band shell... at least once again 2 of the 3 are again in use...

The thought of rows of vines growing behind Itsjeff's memorial bench and stone probably would have pleased him.... since he always orchestrated social functions... Right now his bench is in a lonely part of the island that doesn't get much attention or visitors.

[townonenorth]

Detroitsgwenivere... Belle Isle as it was... was non-existent my lifetime as well. I can only recall as a very young child.... 3 things... the Conservatory, the Aquarium, and listening to music at the band shell... at least once again 2 of the 3 are again in use...

The thought of rows of vines growing behind Itsjeff's memorial bench and stone probably would have pleased him.... since he always orchestrated social functions... Right now his bench is in a lonely part of the island that doesn't get much attention or visitors.

I remember the pony carts, the pony circle, bicycle rental [[although I may be mistaken) and the canoe rental. What would be nice, if there were a public/private entity created, would be an equestrian center somewhere on the island, and the restriction of automobiles in that area. Just bikes and horses.

[KOMPOST]

Apparently you must not have had any ancestors that told you about Belle Isle in the glory days... where the canal banks were lined with strollers [[rather than dead branches and scrub)... where there were flowers an floral areas all over the park [[rather than just behind wrought iron gates that have to be locked up every night at the Conservatory). Perhaps you don't remember listening to any music at the still extant bandshell [[I have vague recollections from childhood of music playing there). Perhaps you don't remember the Belle Isle Zoo WHEN IT WAS STILL OPEN.... Perhaps you don't remember ever being in the Belle Isle Boat Club [[before it got to the sad shape it's in today. Perhaps you haven't driven thru the forest on the eastern end of the island will fallen trees, and marshy land that looks like you could see Adrienne Barbeau and the Swamp Creature behind some creepy looking moss covered trees.

And perhaps you haven't seen any images of the way the island looked in the early 20th century, as seen in some of these post card images....
http://pinterest.com/puredetroit/detroit-belle-isle/

Even the current city government says the island needs $150 million to bring it up to its' former glory.

Unless you prefer it the way it is now...

Wow. So you're comparing Belle Isle in its current state to...1925?
You win. A lot of things looked a lot nicer in the US in 1925. Some could enjoy them, too.
Say, you mind if I pull an old postcard of your neighborhood from the 20's...or even the 50's, for us to compare?

[louis]

there was a thread about this a couple months ago, i love the idea and i am glad to see its still moving forward

[stromberg2]

Look at all there is in Central Park...which is smaller than Belle Isle. Who could possibly be against this?

http://www.centralparknyc.org/visit/things-to-see/

Stromberg2

[DetroitCityCellars]

I think he was referring to the Hantz guy.

DN?

Try not to take all of this banter so personally cellar guy. We've been discussing belle isle something hardcore since the consent agreement was proposed. People are scared of losing a place they love to change, let alone to developers with sweetheart deals.

Belle isle "the way it used to be" has been non-existant my entire life, so I cannot relate to people pinning for the old days. I've spent 3 decades finding the best parts of the BI of now. And I've also spent that time watching city government hack our city to pieces allowing horrid planning decisions,most times the result of hooking up themselves and their friends. So please forgive people like me when we are credulous of these development scenarios. We really can't help ourselves.

I appreciate the sentiment and I can understand why Detroiters look at the ideas presented for Belle Isle through such a sceptical lense. However, I am not simply some suit, looking to pilfer Detroits resources. I am a grape farmer and a winemaker whose worked and studied around the world, honing his craft, so that I could one day return to my home and produce world class wine. I am not trying to hook up any fat cat cronies, I am trying to hook the city up with a very small project that will produce very large positive consequences. Why do you think that both the Governor and Council President Pugh think that this is a good project? Do you believe they would have alterior motives besides striving to improve the quality of life in Detroit?

As for Hantz, I believe he lives in Indian Village, not out of state. So it appeared that Dnerd was taking a careless stab at me.

And we have been working with Charles Pugh and his staff for almost two years on this. He and his office have been great to work with, and to me, they embody the massive potential of Detroit.

[Wheels]

And we have been working with Charles Pugh and his staff for almost two years on this. He and his office have been great to work with, and to me, they embody the massive potential of Detroit.

You were starting to gain credibility until that statement. You would be better off making a deal with the Devil. He is more likely to keep his word.

[Guideboat]

Look at all there is in Central Park...which is smaller than Belle Isle. Who could possibly be against this?

A great example of how a concerted effort between a non-profit group and city government can yield extraordinary results. Central Park didn't always look this good. I suggest everyone who cares about Belle Isle support and lend suggestions/volunteer time to the Belle Isle Conservancy and other island groups.

A tour through the Central Park website shows how they cherish every little hidden gem, from bridges to statues to playgrounds and ball fields. The BIC would do well to emulate their web model.

What money can't buy Belle Isle is people who care. Whether it be putting garbage in a container [[half of the complaints issued here could be solved by this alone) or lending elbow grease to any number of organizations who help keep life on the island.

I know it takes money to update, upgrade, or improve things but the island has a number of diamonds in the rough. I think the canoe livery and canal/lake system could be put back in operation without a huge amount of work. The existing Dossin Museum, Conservatory, Aquarium [[now re-opened on a limited basis), and Nature Zoo make a terrific core. The band shell quietly awaits a concert series. I remember the Detroit Concert Band playing there in my early youth, but certainly something more contemporary would work today. The golf course seems like an opportunity for a public/private operating agreement.

Being an island is a blessing and a curse. It certainly provides lovely views and cool breezes, but it is connected by such a narrow thread literally and metaphorically. Central Park benefits from not only the deep pockets of NYC corporations, foundations, and philanthropy, but it is surrounded by the city. People can access it from so many points. The completion of the eastern Riverfront will help tap into the slow rise of midtown vibrancy. Being able to bicycle from Joe Louis to and around Belle Isle will be terrific. I hope the Riverfront Conservancy and BIC are talking. I think they have some common goals.

Belle Isle certainly could use an infusion of cash, but there is so much there now if people can see beyond the ephemeral problems of long grass and trash.