Winery on Belle Isle?

[DetroitPlanner]

I wish I could press a button and trot out every "profit-making" plan that's been proposed for Belle Isle over the years.

I agree, from the time that CAY has proposed casinos on Belle Isle there has been lots of proposals that went no where. DN is responding to your original thread that mentioned tax base. I am sure that this is being proposed for public land to evade paying property taxes.

That being said, if Essex County, being across the river, has the right climate for a successful wine industry so should most of Detroit. Why not grow this in industry in areas that need development and not in a public park?

[noise]

Just because he doesn't agree with me is not enough for me to think that he's uninterested in honest dialogue.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss and share, but I certainly don't view most of his posts as simple disagreement. It's not a black & white world without shades of grey.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't think you could do a Navy Pier type of Development on Belle Isle. Navy Pier thrives due to its proximity to downtown and the fact that most of its space is used for conventions. http://blog.navypier.com/

Since there would be few pedestrians and no transit, you would need a parking lot the size of Northland Mall to keep the place making revenue. Where on Belle Isle can you put that?

Navy Pier creatively used an unused landmark to create what it now is. The development costs for this would be through the roof. In addition, since Navy Pier is rightfully run by Chicago's version of the Cobo Authority, what is the realistic chance that they will be able or willing to take on such a project?

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, Is this you in this video? It's my favorite Belle Isle video on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr9omtAO6eE

Haha. No. I ain't that good-lookin'.

[Boy Named Sue]

Detroitnerd, you are a perfect example of the broken window theory... The fact that you think that Belle Isle is fine and that the trash is picked up 'moderately well' just goes to show you the differences in perspectives from outsiders. I think it is sad that you actually think this... And you probably do think it is fine, because mediocrity is all over the city and trash strewn all over the place that is has actually become the 'norm' in your eyes--and unfortunately the norm in most other citizens eyes. I have a hard time understanding why people are upset when people provide solutions to the problem and people shoot it down immediately. The first step in solving a problem is admitting there is a problem. You seem to think belle isle is not broken, however everyone 'outsiders' around you does. How can you explain that? Do you really think they are all out to get you and steal money from you, or could it possibly be that someone/business truly wants to be part of the solution? Paranoid

[Detroitnerd]

That being said, if Essex County, being across the river, has the right climate for a successful wine industry so should most of Detroit. Why not grow this in industry in areas that need development and not in a public park?

Well, you have to think about the incentives in play in Essex County.

Canada is a northern country, the majority of which is very, very cold most of the year. It has a few places that are good for the kind of intensive agriculture that goes into growing grapes: the coast of British Columbia and far-south Ontario. It's the scarcity of that kind of land in Canada that drives the development of those vineyards.

It's also why Leamington is the tomato capital of Canada.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, you are a perfect example of the broken window theory... The fact that you think that Belle Isle is fine and that the trash is picked up 'moderately well' just goes to show you the differences in perspectives from outsiders. I think it is sad that you actually think this... And you probably do think it is fine, because mediocrity is all over the city and trash strewn all over the place that is has actually become the 'norm' in your eyes--and unfortunately the norm in most other citizens eyes. I have a hard time understanding why people are upset when people provide solutions to the problem and people shoot it down immediately. The first step in solving a problem is admitting there is a problem. You seem to think belle isle is not broken, however everyone 'outsiders' around you does. How can you explain that? Do you really think they are all out to get you and steal money from you, or could it possibly be that someone/business truly wants to be part of the solution? Paranoid

Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe my standards are lower than yours. But when I go to Belle Isle, I see that trash gets picked up, police are on patrol, the roads are in better condition than in my neighborhood and people are having fun.

To propose anything that takes away from that experience in the name of "improving" it seems counterproductive to me.

I think that, as a longtime resident of Detroit, I'm entitled to my opinion. After all, I'm helping pay for it.

[esteban]

A winery on Belle Isle is a hair-brained, non-starter idea on so many levels it is hardly worth discussing.
It seems that there are many well-intentioned folks, profit-oriented and otherwise that want to radically alter how the park is used.

All I have to say is, public parks are for the public, not a means to make money. A city with any class does not enforce a direct charge on its citizens to use their park. It's not only tacky, it is dangerous. The majority of Detroiters are low income, and all but those that live in the direct vicinity already have to pay transportation to get to Belle Isle.
For those of you familiar with a pressure cooker, they have a valve to relieve that excess pressure. Belle Isle is the pressure valve for young people in Detroit. Leave it alone.

[corktownyuppie]

A winery on Belle Isle is a hair-brained, non-starter idea on so many levels it is hardly worth discussing.
It seems that there are many well-intentioned folks, profit-oriented and otherwise that want to radically alter how the park is used.

All I have to say is, public parks are for the public, not a means to make money. A city with any class does not enforce a direct charge on its citizens to use their park. It's not only tacky, it is dangerous. The majority of Detroiters are low income, and all but those that live in the direct vicinity already have to pay transportation to get to Belle Isle.
For those of you familiar with a pressure cooker, they have a valve to relieve that excess pressure. Belle Isle is the pressure valve for young people in Detroit. Leave it alone.

Esteban, the pressure cooker argument being valid, I think it's important to note that most of us that want to change how it's used are just trying to change it back to a shadow of what it once was. There used to be a world class casino, aquarium, and yacht club on that island.

No one is saying that Belle Isle is supposed to "make money". But right now the problem is that Belle Isle "costs money". And with every year that goes by, the city has less and less money to do the things that need to be done.

So I understand if you don't like or agree with any or many of the proposals. Just know that I don't want to change it to something Detroiters won't be able to enjoy. To the contrary, I want to change it BACK to something that Detroiters and suburbanites and tourists and Canadians can enjoy *more*.

Belle Isle used to be a jewel that all of Michigan could be proud of. Shuttered aquarium? Shuttered casino? Bathrooms like gas stations? Doesn't Belle Isle deserve better? Don't you deserve better?

I pay taxes in Detroit, too. I certainly think we all deserve better.

[Pam]

Pam... is that comment by "Nadine" on the MLIVE site the basis for the "Conservation Site" comment?

I just did a Google on "Blue Heron Conservation" and got thru about 6 pages of mentions of that term... but ALL in other states.

I don't think that that "Nadine" knows what she's talking about [[although I am no expert). That part of Belle Isle was built up from river and lake bottom dredgings.... and every time I visit ITSJEFF's bench... I'm hard pressed to find any wildlife [[or humans) in the area.... just open meadowlands. And that "Blake" fellow pretty much refuted much of what Nadine said. And I agree... the area around the lagoon is among the highest area on the island... no swamp like you find in the forest just west of it.

While a vineyard may not be the best use of Belle Isle land... I would like to see something being done with that nice area of the island [[outside of the Fredrick Law Olmstead designed area)....

Also, I agree with whoever mentioned the Casino... I've never been there... and I've been to the island several hundred times. Isn't it about time that something was done with the casino to make it visitor friendly? And not just rentals or senior activities...

Yes, "Nadine" is the person I quoted. The comments from Blake were added later. He is the winery guy, so I don't know how accurate he is either.

Anyway, I found this:

http://www.detroitriver.org/fdr-pdf/GLRI/b_i_p_r.pdf

[Detroitnerd]

I pay taxes in Detroit, too. I certainly think we all deserve better.

It comes down to this: The idea that we exclude people to make it better for everybody ... doesn't make sense. The idea that we take away from the recreational component ... to improve the recreational component ... likewise doesn't make sense.

You can do all the rhetorical gymnastics you like. The people on the ground understand what this means for them. And, yeah, I agree with esteban ... the steam is rising and now's not the time to defund a vital safety valve...

[Detroitnerd]

If any of you want to enjoy a nature ramble on Belle Isle but want to get away from the heavy grill action, I recommend a stroll down the path off where Loiter Way curves into Vista Drive. You can walk for a few miles and back, no cars, no boomin' bass, just a few people along the way, even some sneak peeks at the back of the old zoo. There are many different environments on the island should you choose to investigate.

[jpbollma]

It comes down to this: The idea that we exclude people to make it better for everybody ... doesn't make sense. The idea that we take away from the recreational component ... to improve the recreational component ... likewise doesn't make sense.

You can do all the rhetorical gymnastics you like. The people on the ground understand what this means for them. And, yeah, I agree with esteban ... the steam is rising and now's not the time to defund a vital safety valve...

I just do not understand the logic here. Charging $0.80 per month would not deny anyone anything. Are you saying that every state park in Michigan is denying poor people entry? I can guarantee you plenty of low income people find $10 per year and enjoy these parks. Poor people do exist outside of Detroit.

The ideas that Corktownyuppie and I were supportive of would only restore the island to what it already was before! There were already all types of recreation:casino, yacht club, aquarium, boating, flower gardens, conservatory, restaurants ect. The only difference now is that the public can no longer afford to pay for those services, so in order to make this a world class park again you need alternate sources of funding. No one here is advocating turning it into a gated neighborhood or any such thing.

[Detroitnerd]

I just do not understand the logic here. Charging $0.80 per month would not deny anyone anything. Are you saying that every state park in Michigan is denying poor people entry? I can guarantee you plenty of low income people find $10 per year and enjoy these parks. Poor people do exist outside of Detroit.

First of all, it's a little bit of an evasion to say it's just 80 cents a month.

It's $10 a year.

And you're asking somebody for $10 on top of their vehicle registration. I was opposed to that because I know that the vehicle registration is sometimes hard enough to scrape up. To ask for another $10 on top of that is to ask too much of people living below the poverty line. Really, it is. Perhaps you don't understand just how poor people are in Detroit. They're trying to play by the rules, but there's simply no work for them at all. And maybe they just scraped up enough pop bottles to get the money for registration and the gas necessary to get to a Secretary of State office. They have children to feed, many other bills to pay, all of which they're behind on. And somebody asks them for this $10, which is nominal to you and me.

It ain't nominal for them.

You may as well ask them for the golden fleece, my friend.

[jpbollma]

First of all, it's a little bit of an evasion to say it's just 80 cents a month.

It's $10 a year.

And you're asking somebody for $10 on top of their vehicle registration. I was opposed to that because I know that the vehicle registration is sometimes hard enough to scrape up. To ask for another $10 on top of that is to ask too much of people living below the poverty line. Really, it is. Perhaps you don't understand just how poor people are in Detroit. They're trying to play by the rules, but there's simply no work for them at all. And maybe they just scraped up enough pop bottles to get the money for registration and the gas necessary to get to a Secretary of State office. They have children to feed, many other bills to pay, all of which they're behind on. And somebody asks them for this $10, which is nominal to you and me.

It ain't nominal for them.

You may as well ask them for the golden fleece, my friend.

I hope I am not offending you in anyway. Yes, we just have different perspectives. In my mind, making a world class park will help to attract more business and tourism therefore creating jobs for people who cannot find work. Many of these jobs would be in the service sector which do not require degrees. Is it perfect? No. I wish there was some magical way to eradicate poverty. I haven't had to deal with poverty in a long time, but I can tell you as a high school student I had religious extremist parents who were not supportive of me "coming out" and I was homeless for my senior year and couch hopped while working and finishing school. I definitely know what it is like to be poor. I also know the only way out of poverty is by creating a climate where jobs can be created that people can actually perform, thereby creating a tax base to also improve education. That may be slightly off topic, but in my mind all of these things are tied up together. Again, just different perspectives of what will or will not improve life for others.

[esteban]

I just do not understand the logic here. Charging $0.80 per month would not deny anyone anything. Are you saying that every state park in Michigan is denying poor people entry?

Belle Isle is not a state park, jpbollma, it's a city park. There is a marked difference.
Sadly, that may change when the 'cientificos'* take over...

*"...

The

científicos

furnished Díaz’s dictatorship, which they upheld as a bulwark against anarchy, with a prestigious facade, as the army and the

rurales

[[federal police) provided it with its foundation...."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...700/cientifico

[jpbollma]

Belle Isle is not a state park, jpbollma, it's a city park. There is a marked difference.
Sadly, that may change when the 'cientificos'* take over...

*"...

The

científicos

furnished Díaz’s dictatorship, which they upheld as a bulwark against anarchy, with a prestigious facade, as the army and the

rurales

[[federal police) provided it with its foundation...."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...700/cientifico

I realize that it is not a state park, yes, I was commenting based on the fact that it likely will be.

[esteban]

I realize that it is not a state park, yes, I was commenting based on the fact that it likely will be.

~Sigh~ Me too, jpbollma, me too...

[Detroitnerd]

I hope I am not offending you in anyway. Yes, we just have different perspectives. In my mind, making a world class park will help to attract more business and tourism therefore creating jobs for people who cannot find work. Many of these jobs would be in the service sector which do not require degrees. Is it perfect? No. I wish there was some magical way to eradicate poverty. I haven't had to deal with poverty in a long time, but I can tell you as a high school student I had religious extremist parents who were not supportive of me "coming out" and I was homeless for my senior year and couch hopped while working and finishing school. I definitely know what it is like to be poor. I also know the only way out of poverty is by creating a climate where jobs can be created that people can actually perform, thereby creating a tax base to also improve education. That may be slightly off topic, but in my mind all of these things are tied up together. Again, just different perspectives of what will or will not improve life for others.

No, I'm not offended. I have a big mouth and it's only fair I grow a thick skin, not that you've said anything that has offended me at all. Thank you for sharing your experience. I think it always helps when we remember that we're all human beings on this forum and brings out the best.

With the exception of some people who have obviously stated that they want some sort of entry fee to exclude poor people, I understand that the goal isn't to hurt the most vulnerable people. [[Heck, did anybody ever get a successful plan off the ground saying, "Let's sock it to those defenseless innocents!")

You understand the poverty part, and I applaud that. Yes, a significant portion of Detroiters will be simply unable to come up with an additional $10. Heck, a lot of Detroiters can't even keep up their stickers as it is.

But I am going to have to remain opposed to any plan that turns away law-abiding Detroiters from riding out onto the park they have had access to for more than 120 years. I would rather not enact anything right now that I know to be harmful -- based upon some future hope that things will get better. Even if you disagree, you have to admit it is a stand based in common sense.

And I wonder, who will be the one to turn away families? Would you volunteer for that job? Who will be the one to leave bridge traffic in a snarl and call in the cops and see parents arrested in front of their own children for the crime of trying something this week that was normal last week? Try to imagine being that official at the guard house facing an angry family ready for a cookout, with a line of honking, yelling angry motorists stacked up on that bridge, many of them now unsure they're getting in. Imagine what might happen. And bear in mind, the 1943 riot broke out on that very bridge.

Would you volunteer to be the one to tell them that you hope that this attracts more people to the island, that there will be more attractions and that, eventually, you hope this lifts them out of poverty so they can afford the $10? I know I wouldn't.

[esteban]

No, I'm not offended...

Yes. 'Like' everything Detroitnerd said...

...and I'll add this, just in case anyone feels they can deny that this does not have the potential to become violent:
Detroit Race Riot [[1943)
"...on a warm Saturday evening on Belle Isle. A fist fight broke out..."

[jpbollma]

No, I'm not offended. I have a big mouth and it's only fair I grow a thick skin, not that you've said anything that has offended me at all. Thank you for sharing your experience. I think it always helps when we remember that we're all human beings on this forum and brings out the best.

With the exception of some people who have obviously stated that they want some sort of entry fee to exclude poor people, I understand that the goal isn't to hurt the most vulnerable people. [[Heck, did anybody ever get a successful plan off the ground saying, "Let's sock it to those defenseless innocents!")

You understand the poverty part, and I applaud that. Yes, a significant portion of Detroiters will be simply unable to come up with an additional $10. Heck, a lot of Detroiters can't even keep up their stickers as it is.

But I am going to have to remain opposed to any plan that turns away law-abiding Detroiters from riding out onto the park they have had access to for more than 120 years. I would rather not enact anything right now that I know to be harmful -- based upon some future hope that things will get better. Even if you disagree, you have to admit it is a stand based in common sense.

And I wonder, who will be the one to turn away families? Would you volunteer for that job? Who will be the one to leave bridge traffic in a snarl and call in the cops and see parents arrested in front of their own children for the crime of trying something this week that was normal last week? Try to imagine being that official at the guard house facing an angry family ready for a cookout, with a line of honking, yelling angry motorists stacked up on that bridge, many of them now unsure they're getting in. Imagine what might happen. And bear in mind, the 1943 riot broke out on that very bridge.

Would you volunteer to be the one to tell them that you hope that this attracts more people to the island, that there will be more attractions and that, eventually, you hope this lifts them out of poverty so they can afford the $10? I know I wouldn't.

Well, I am pretty sure the transition of the island would be well publicized. Also, last I read the state had floated the idea of still allowing free entry at first so people can see what the state can do for the island. There are still other parks that are free entry that you can grill out at as well. This one is simply too large to take care of without new taxes or a fee. I also think it is not the best idea when people threaten riots whenever something happens. This doesn't help anyone. I don't think traffic would be snarled, you would turn your car around to the other lane and leave.

If someone gets out of their car and starts a confrontation, they are committing a crime and I would not feel bad if they were arrested one bit. Threats and personal/physical attacks are not the way to solve problems. I feel no remorse if someone gets in trouble for acting in this way. I currently live in Saginaw and as I stated in other threads am transitioning to my new home downtown. Much of Saginaw is just as poor as Detroit and we don't have rioting at fee based parks here. If people choose to engage in that type of behavior that is a reflection on themselves not anyone else. If there truly is a family that cannot afford the park then yes, I feel terrible about that. What is the alternative? The park will continue getting less funding and fall apart completely. Sometimes things do come in shades of grey.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, I am pretty sure the transition of the island would be well publicized. Also, last I read the state had floated the idea of still allowing free entry at first so people can see what the state can do for the island. There are still other parks that are free entry that you can grill out at as well. This one is simply too large to take care of without new taxes or a fee. I also think it is not the best idea when people threaten riots whenever something happens. This doesn't help anyone. I don't think traffic would be snarled, you would turn your car around to the other lane and leave.

If someone gets out of their car and starts a confrontation, they are committing a crime and I would not feel bad if they were arrested one bit. Threats and personal/physical attacks are not the way to solve problems. I feel no remorse if someone gets in trouble for acting in this way. I currently live in Saginaw and as I stated in other threads am transitioning to my new home downtown. Much of Saginaw is just as poor as Detroit and we don't have rioting at fee based parks here. If people choose to engage in that type of behavior that is a reflection on themselves not anyone else. If there truly is a family that cannot afford the park then yes, I feel terrible about that. What is the alternative? The park will continue getting less funding and fall apart completely. Sometimes things do come in shades of grey.

I think you're engaging in wishful thinking and missing the point. Nobody is threatening a riot here. It's just a seasoned observation that this is how riots begin. You think the poorest Detroiters are polite people who wave at Officer Friendly and turn around their cars, sacrificing the park that is 10 degrees cooler to go back to a world of no air conditioning in a run-down park that, somehow, we hope, will get better because we're raising money to fix up Belle Isle and whatever is left over will go to that park, someday, eventually?

I hate to point this out, but if somebody gets out of their car and argues, as will happen, they didn't start the confrontation. Frankly, it will have been people such as yourself who started that confrontation. You don't give residents free access to a park for 120 years and then turn around and say, "Sorry, you didn't apply for the license endorsement that you can't afford," and then expect everything to be hunky dory.

The alternative is that the park takes a funding hit. I live in Detroit and see that the city takes funding hit after funding hit and there's nothing I can do about it. It is a radical and dangerous answer to say that the solution is to exclude people from using the best park so that we can improve it. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Frankly, I can only conclude that you don't see it because you don't want to. And that's an acceptable answer, I guess. Just don't try to convince me of something when you'd rather face some of the facts instead of all of them.

[jpbollma]

I think you're engaging in wishful thinking and missing the point. Nobody is threatening a riot here. It's just a seasoned observation that this is how riots begin. You think the poorest Detroiters are polite people who wave at Officer Friendly and turn around their cars, sacrificing the park that is 10 degrees cooler to go back to a world of no air conditioning in a run-down park that, somehow, we hope, will get better because we're raising money to fix up Belle Isle and whatever is left over will go to that park, someday, eventually?

I hate to point this out, but if somebody gets out of their car and argues, as will happen, they didn't start the confrontation. Frankly, it will have been people such as yourself who started that confrontation. You don't give residents free access to a park for 120 years and then turn around and say, "Sorry, you didn't apply for the license endorsement that you can't afford," and then expect everything to be hunky dory.

The alternative is that the park takes a funding hit. I live in Detroit and see that the city takes funding hit after funding hit and there's nothing I can do about it. It is a radical and dangerous answer to say that the solution is to exclude people from using the best park so that we can improve it. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Frankly, I can only conclude that you don't see it because you don't want to. And that's an acceptable answer, I guess. Just don't try to convince me of something when you'd rather face some of the facts instead of all of them.

Well, when my property taxes or car insurance go up, I don't go to an office and start a fight. That is ridiculous. If they get out of their car, YES, they did start the confrontation. This constant victim mentality never has helped anyone and it's best we get rid of it. Taxes and other fees are going up because there is no money. I think you are not seeing that there is no alternative. Money doesn't grow on trees and letting Michigan slide behind the rest of the nation because we are unwilling to take painful action is not a solution. Again, not to get too off topic but I don't think the poor should be making all the sacrifice. For example, the wealthy in this country get away with murder as far as taxes are concerned. This is a part of the problem. Michigan's population loss is also a part of the problem.At the local level the bottom line is whether we have a fee or a higher tax rate or millage these poor people will be paying it either way. If there is a millage, even renters will see an increase of what they pay because their landlords will pass the cost to them. One way or another, everyone will be paying more if they want to see Belle Isle stay open and Detroit get better. It's ugly, it's unfair, and quite frankly it sucks...but again, things don't pay for themselves.

[Detroitnerd]

It's ugly, it's unfair, and quite frankly it sucks...

... and it's totally avoidable. We could have come up with an alternative that didn't hurt the most vulnerable. And we didn't. And, frankly, it's that kind of "oh well" mentality that plays into that.

[esteban]

...This constant victim mentality...

Seems "tough love" has become a fashionable fixation.

Spend 33 years living in an increasingly impoverished part of Detroit, interact with the people you claim have 'This constant victim mentality'. Then, once you have walked the walk let's see if you still feel the same way.