Winery on Belle Isle?

[townonenorth]

I'm a Detroiter, and I'm fine with the way it is. The staff pick up the garbage, the police find the lawbreakers, and it's a nice place to have a picnic. Nice views of Canada, cool in the summer. I guess my complaints would be the big honking pad of concrete by the Scott Fountain and the goose poop.

Oh yeah, they have staff on the island picking up trash. for now. Same with the police... for now. Everything else you mentioned, depends on the first two things, doesn't it? Or are you just cherry picking fiscal realities?

[Detroitnerd]

Oh yeah, they have staff on the island picking up trash. for now. Same with the police... for now. Everything else you mentioned, depends on the first two things, doesn't it? Or are you just cherry picking fiscal realities?

No, I'm dealing with reality. I deal with the reality that I'm probably not going to get everything that my taxes are supposed to pay for. Detroit isn't the rich city it once was: Mostly because a lot of people of means took their money and left the city -- and feel smug enough about it to chortle about poor people and their 40-ouncers.

But that wouldn't be you, would it?

[townonenorth]

No, I'm dealing with reality. I deal with the reality that I'm probably not going to get everything that my taxes are supposed to pay for. Detroit isn't the rich city it once was: Mostly because a lot of people of means took their money and left the city -- and feel smug enough about it to chortle about poor people and their 40-ouncers.

But that wouldn't be you, would it?

No, I just threw the 40 ouncer comment in to pull your chain. You always rise to the bait, LOL...

And if you were REALLY concerned with the plight of the poor, why aren't you down at city hall demanding a BUS to the island? Huh?

[Detroitnerd]

No, I just threw the 40 ouncer comment in to pull your chain. You always rise to the bait, LOL...

Right. You didn't mean that at all. Just yankin' old Detroitnerd's chain. Suuuuuurrrre.

And if you were REALLY concerned with the plight of the poor, why aren't you down at city hall demanding a BUS to the island? Huh?

I guess there's always something more I could do. I figure that living and working in Detroit, trying to be a good citizen and resident, paying my taxes and being a small, stabilizing influence isn't bad for starters ...

[313WX]

Here's where we stand with Belle Isle...

Detroitnerd is correct that Belle Isle is a public park and it should not be utilized for private profits. That's the bottom line.

Corktownyuppie is also correct that most people [[including myself) think Belle Isle is heavily under-maintenance. That's also bottom line.

I'm also against having the state lease Belle Isle for 99 years, or even leasing it at all, there's just too much slippery slope involved, especially given how the state of Michigan likes to circumvent laws that are in the books.

So here's what we do...

The City Council passes a resolution to create a regional authority, with 7 members presiding over it [[3 Detroit, 1 Wayne County, 1 Macomb County, 1 Oakland County, 1 State of Michigan) that people in the city of Detroit and the tri-county area can elect every 4 years, like the US presidency or state governor. However, the city of Detroit maintains full ownership of Belle Isle like they do with the DIA and Detroit Zoo. The state of Michigan elected member will be the swing voter.

The regional authority takes over control of operations on Belle Isle and its maintenance. None of the board members on the authority are paid [[and if they are paid, it's a very modest stipend), to keep away the leeches. The board will also only meet part-time regarding any updates to their operation of Belle Isle. To qualify to run for this position, you must have not held an executive position at any fortune 500 company or a elected/appointed position in any form of government. You must also have a high school diploma and some type of administrative/public relations experience.

All of this is contigent upon a majority of the voters in the tri-country area passing either a sales tax mileage or a property tax mileage that will raise enough money to properly fund activities on Belle Isle. If it doesn't pass, we're back to square one, or we institute some type of fee on everyone.

If the sales or property tax mileage is passed, everyone in the Tri-County area will be able to visit the park for free, while any tourists outside the Tri-county area must pay a $2 or $3 fee to access the park.

At the regional board's discretion, they can put up concession stands, skate parks, water slides, golf courses, etc. [[even a winery), and charge small fees for park visitors to use them, and all of the funds will go back towards park operations. Beaches, park benches, bike trials, etc. will be free to use.

Ernst & Young or Plante Moran will conduct annual audits of Belle Isle's books, to make sure no one's abusing the funds. If there's any abuse of the funds, all of the board members are relieved of their respective duties immediately and until the next election, the government of Detroit, Michigan, Wayne, Macomb and Oakland County will appoint interim Board members.

I know I'm dreaming, but the above will be the most realistic and fair way to handle this mess with Belle Isle.

[Detroitnerd]

I know I'm dreaming, but the above will be the most realistic and fair way to handle this mess with Belle Isle.

..........

[detroitsgwenivere]

DNerd/ CTYuppie:

Do both of you work at the same place that gave their people the day off? Cuz you two have been goin at it for what seems like two days straight...

:P

[jpbollma]

Here's where we stand with Belle Isle...

Detroitnerd is correct that Belle Isle is a public park and it should not be utilized for private profits. That's the bottom line.

Corktownyuppie is also correct that most people [[including myself) think Belle Isle is heavily under-maintenance. That's also bottom line.

I'm also against having the state lease Belle Isle for 99 years, or even leasing it at all, there's just too much slippery slope involved, especially given how the state of Michigan likes to circumvent laws that are in the books.

So here's what we do...

The City Council passes a resolution to create a regional authority, with 7 members presiding over it [[3 Detroit, 1 Wayne County, 1 Macomb County, 1 Oakland County, 1 State of Michigan) that people in the city of Detroit and the tri-county area can elect every 4 years, like the US presidency or state governor. However, the city of Detroit maintains full ownership of Belle Isle like they do with the DIA and Detroit Zoo. The state of Michigan elected member will be the swing voter.

The regional authority takes over control of operations on Belle Isle and its maintenance. None of the board members on the authority are paid [[and if they are paid, it's a very modest stipend), to keep away the leeches. The board will also only meet part-time regarding any updates to their operation of Belle Isle. To qualify to run for this position, you must have not held an executive position at any fortune 500 company or a elected/appointed position in any form of government. You must also have a high school diploma and some type of administrative/public relations experience.

All of this is contigent upon a majority of the voters in the tri-country area passing either a sales tax mileage or a property tax mileage that will raise enough money to properly fund activities on Belle Isle. If it doesn't pass, we're back to square one, or we institute some type of fee on everyone.

If the sales or property tax mileage is passed, everyone in the Tri-County area will be able to visit the park for free, while any tourists outside the Tri-county area must pay a $2 or $3 fee to access the park.

At the regional board's discretion, they can put up concession stands, skate parks, water slides, golf courses, etc. [[even a winery), and charge small fees for park visitors to use them, and all of the funds will go back towards park operations. Beaches, park benches, bike trials, etc. will be free to use.

Ernst & Young or Plante Moran will conduct annual audits of Belle Isle's books, to make sure no one's abusing the funds. If there's any abuse of the funds, all of the board members are relieved of their respective duties immediately and until the next election, the government of Detroit, Michigan, Wayne, Macomb and Oakland County will appoint interim Board members.

I know I'm dreaming, but the above will be the most realistic and fair way to handle this mess with Belle Isle.

Not sure if it is a good or bad idea, but it wouldn't happen because Wayne County is already the most heavily taxed county in Michigan and receives the least services in return. I also would highly doubt the tri-county burbs would be willing to foot the bill for another Detroit Jewel after the DIA. How many parks or museums does Detroit help these counties fund in their own counties? I was pro DIA millage, but I don't think another plan like this would have a chance in hell of ever passing.

[Detroitnerd]

DNerd/ CTYuppie:

Do both of you work at the same place that gave their people the day off? Cuz you two have been goin at it for what seems like two days straight...

:P

Ha. Well, when you work 12 hours a day and hardly take lunch, the management takes a somewhat lenient view -- as long as all the work is done.

[313WX]

Not sure if it is a good or bad idea, but it wouldn't happen because Wayne County is already the most heavily taxed county in Michigan and receives the least services in return. I also would highly doubt the tri-county burbs would be willing to foot the bill for another Detroit Jewel after the DIA. How many parks or museums does Detroit help these counties fund in their own counties? I was pro DIA millage, but I don't think another plan like this would have a chance in hell of ever passing.

As for your question to the bolded, Detroiters pay Wayne County property taxes and the Wayne County mileage to fund county-owned institutions.

Detroiters also pay into the HCMA [[I forget exactly how, but Detroiters do).

However, that's neither here nor there. Fact of the matter is Detroit doesn't have the tax base the surrounding suburbs have, and also the institutions such as the Detroit Zoo, DIA, Belle Isle, etc. are on a completely different level from the measly institutions in the suburbs [[and thus are far more expensive to maintain). The aforementioned institutions were meant to be enjoyed by everyone in the region [[which they are). How many suburbanites pack Belle Isle [[free of charge) for the Grand Prix or the Fireworks for example? Meanwhile, how often do a lot of Detroiters pack some random park in Oakland County [[free of charge)?. The institutions in the suburbs on the other hand are only meant to be enjoyed by said suburban communities.

Why should folks from the subrubs be able to come to these institutions in Detroit and not expect to pay anything? Or how can they advertise these institutions to outsiders who are looking to move to Detroit [[metro) if they really play no part in maintaining the institutions?

[jpbollma]

As for your question to the bolded, Detroiters pay Wayne County property taxes and the Wayne County mileage to fund county-owned institutions.

Detroiters also pay into the HCMA [[I forget exactly how, but Detroiters do).

However, that's neither here nor there. Fact of the matter is Detroit doesn't have the tax base the surrounding suburbs have, and also the institutions such as the Detroit Zoo, DIA, Belle Isle, etc. are on a completely different level from the measly institutions in the suburbs [[and thus are far more expensive to maintain). The aforementioned institutions were meant to be enjoyed by everyone in the region [[which they are). How many suburbanites pack Belle Isle [[free of charge) for the Grand Prix or the Fireworks for example? Meanwhile, how often do a lot of Detroiters pack some random park in Oakland County [[free of charge)?. The institutions in the suburbs on the other hand are only meant to be enjoyed by said suburban communities.

Why should folks from the subrubs be able to come to these institutions in Detroit and not expect to pay anything? Or how can they advertise these institutions to outsiders who are looking to move to Detroit [[metro) if they really play no part in maintaining the institutions?

All fair points, and I don't necessarily disagree, but I just do not see the tri-county actually voting "yes" to anything like this. Maybe I am wrong, but that is the impression I get. Not to take things too far off subject but I'd rather see the island go to the state as a lease or whatever other idea they come up with and have a tri-county tax for a regional police force since for Wayne County that would seem to be priority one.

[detroitsgwenivere]

I went to Belle isle 2 weekends ago and it was jampacked with families. I mean, NO PLACE TO PARK jampacked. Grills goin, frisbees flying, kids everywhere.

So the island could use some updated amenities and rehabilitated structures to house some heavily desired and missed attractions. And it needs more funding to handle its upkeep. I'm sure everyone agrees with that. But I just don't see what some of you are insisting, where the island is some rotting dump nobody wants to visit.

Like Ive said before, it looks to me like some cultural differences are at the real heart of this "perception" that the island needs to be completely overhauled in order to be attractive to "everyone."

[313WX]

All fair points, and I don't necessarily disagree, but I just do not see the tri-county actually voting "yes" to anything like this. Maybe I am wrong, but that is the impression I get. Not to take things too far off subject but I'd rather see the island go to the state as a lease or whatever other idea they come up with and have a tri-county tax for a regional police force since for Wayne County that would seem to be priority one.

I see your point too, but I'm not so sure that'll be the case.

The main reason suburbanites are quite hesitant to fund a lot of things in Detroit is because they're afraid the guys at CAYMC are going to misuse the money. In this scenario though, not only would they have just as much control as Detroit when it comes to the use of the funds, but neither the folks at CAYMC nor at the Wayne County Building will have a say in the maintenance and operations [[since the 7-member board will control all aspects regarding Belle Isle).

They know places such as Belle Isle, DIA, Detroit Zoo, etc. are very huge regional assets that we really can't afford to use. I'm also certain they would like to visit Belle Isle more often for recreational purposes, because there's really no other park like it in the entire region [[like Central Park in NYC, Centennial Park in Atlanta or Grant Park in Chicago). On the other hand, they don't want to use a park that's filled with garbage, where the infrastructure is crumbling and where certain folks are able to run amok on it.

But the fact that suburbanites overwhelmingly supported the DIA mileage only provides more confidence that a Belle Isle mileage can be successfully passed, provided they dictate some of the terms.

[jpbollma]

I see your point too, but I'm not so sure that'll be the case.

The main reason suburbanites are quite hesitant to fund a lot of things in Detroit is because they're afraid the guys at CAYMC are going to misuse the money. In this scenario though, not only would they have just as much control as Detroit when it comes to the use of the funds, but neither the folks at CAYMC nor at the Wayne County Building will have a say in the maintenance and operations [[since the 7-member board will control all aspects regarding Belle Isle).

They know places such as Belle Isle, DIA, Detroit Zoo, etc. are very huge regional assets that we really can't afford to use. I'm also certain they would like to visit Belle Isle more often for recreational purposes, because there's really no other park like it in the entire region [[like Central Park in NYC, Centennial Park in Atlanta or Grant Park in Chicago). On the other hand, they don't want to use a park that's filled with garbage, where the infrastructure is crumbling and where certain folks are able to run amok on it.

But the fact that suburbanites overwhelmingly supported the DIA mileage only provides more confidence that a Belle Isle mileage can be successfully passed, provided they dictate some of the terms.

It would be a hard sell but I suppose anything is possible. If you could convince people that the city would not touch the funds and that security would be out in force, it could be a possibility. Of course then you would have Joann Watson back out there screaming that "they" are stealing Detroit's Jewel. I suppose she and her comrades will do that no matter what plan goes into effect unless the money is handed directly to the city. Out of all of the options, it looks like State control is the most realistic at this time and is a sure source of funding. If we have a sure thing I hope we don't toss it out because it isn't "perfect enough".

[Wheels]

So let me get this straight. We all agree there should be some sort of entrance fee if for nothing else just to keep out the lowlifes. Right?

[jpbollma]

So let me get this straight. We all agree there should be some sort of entrance fee if for nothing else just to keep out the lowlifes. Right?

I agree with that! However, I think some would say they support the fee so that the grounds can be properly maintained. The writing is already on the wall, a fee is coming and it will be leased by the state. Now we are just waiting on the terms and conditions. They wouldn't have put that discussion out in the open as much as they have if this were not going to happen. Really, city council has no say in this. The plan will be worked out between the Governor and the Mayor.

[Neilr]

I'm a Detroiter, and I'm fine with the way it is. The staff pick up the garbage, the police find the lawbreakers, and it's a nice place to have a picnic. Nice views of Canada, cool in the summer. I guess my complaints would be the big honking pad of concrete by the Scott Fountain and the goose poop.

Detroitnerd, Is this you in this video? It's my favorite Belle Isle video on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr9omtAO6eE

[Gistok]

When I went to Itsjeffs bench last time, I noticed how desolate and empty the eastern part of the island is.... would I mind a winery... probably not. But is the climate and soil right for that underutilized meadowlands.

Hmmm... "Chateau Itsjeff" has a nice ring to it... and they could serve it at the casino. In the hundreds of times I've been to Belle Isle... I've never been to the casino... never found any reason to... maybe this would be one...

[Pam]

Comment from the MLive site:

The east side of the island near the lighthouse is the Blue Heron Lagoon, a conservation site. No, you can't have a development there.

Let the wine guy go somewhere else.

[j to the jeremy]

Already-successful businessmen want to be given precious city recreational land for for-profit business in city where tens of thousands of vacant lots are screaming to be put back on tax rolls.

Yeah, obviously that's what they want. I want me some free soil too! And I ain't even rich!

Thank you for pointing this out.

Belle isle needs to get cleaned up, but does not need to be developed any more. In fact, nature areas need to be preserved.

[noise]

LOL. Funny, and I am sure some people feel that way, but I don't think that is exactly what Corktown and I were trying to advocate.

You have to understand that Detroitnerd is never really interested in an honest discussion. It's always about manic extremes.

[jpbollma]

Comment from the MLive site:



Let the wine guy go somewhere else.

I did not see that this area was a Blue Heron conservation site. If this is truly a needed animal conservation area, that would change my mind. We have too few areas for our wildlife as it is. That being said, 982 acres of island. There are plenty of places to put a few things.

[jpbollma]

Also, For the love of Christ can we get rid of all the shitty pavement? Would it be feasible to have people park on the mainland and take shuttles or ferry rides over to the island? Make it carless like Mackinaw Island? I know I am really dreaming there, but I would love that. It would be so much more relaxing.

[corktownyuppie]

You have to understand that Detroitnerd is never really interested in an honest discussion. It's always about manic extremes.

I give Mr. Nerd the benefit of the doubt and think that he's truly calling balls and strikes as he sees them.

I don't think there is a wrong or right to this. I grew up in a bi-cultural household and am familiar with the frustrations that come when two different sets of social norms come into conflict.

And while we obviously have two competing visions for what the ideal Belle Isle would look like, I know that there's also a lot of overlap. Where you come into conflict when cultures collide is that what is totally acceptable and fine to one group is a major negative for the other.

For example, my parents used to cook a specific kind of smoked fish from their homeland, and its odor was so foul that you could smell it in the driveway walking up to the door. It permeated the closets, clothes, everything. But for them, it wasn't a bad smell -- it was dinner.

I believe that in order to move forward on a shared vision, leadership of various groups need to come to the table with compassion and understanding. Part of the reason why Detroiters fear the state is in part because at some level, we believe that if the state comes in, then our behavior will need to change. Why do they think that? Because likely it will. We will be sharing the island with totally new groups of people...some of whom carry significant, intense condescension and hostility toward Detroiters.

Let's be honest, if you and your friends were all having a good time and then were told that a new group of people were moving in, and these people were angry at you and hostile to you...would that make you happy? Of course not.

So it's important that we confront the reality of the problems we're dealing with financially along with preferences that all parties have. Is this process difficult, frustrating, and maddening? Of course.

But we could make it a lot less frustrating if people took more time to understand each other, and that's my goal in all of this. Let's remember that while there are families on the park that probably don't want to pay $10 per year, there are also two country clubs on that island, one if them with the word "yacht" in the name.

There are ways we can all learn to get along, share space, and be respectful of each other. There are also things we won't agree on. That's ok.

313WX's idea is phenomenal. But look between the lines, and note that it [[a) takes power away from the city and shares with the suburbs and [[b) doesn't give the city a majority vote, with the swing vote coming from the state. This is the same model that worked for the Zoo, Cobo, and the DIA. It will work for us. It's also the same model that led BRC, Monica Conyers, and JoAnn Watson to start feeding crazy sauce to the public about how white people were invading and taking over "our space". Plantation references start to show up.

So it's all about how you sell the idea. Remember that many Detroiters are untrusting and skeptical of outsiders [[out-staters?) and have been burned time and time again by people from both the city and suburbs.

I still stand by my position that Belle Isle needs more money and needs to maximize its utility to both the city and the region, believing that both will benefit. I also understand that the fears of outsiders coming in and screwing everything up is very real and need to be addressed. And I also accept that Detroitnerd doesn't share my vision.

But it does no one any good to start taking things personally and start viewing other people as the enemy. Just because he doesn't agree with me is not enough for me to think that he's uninterested in honest dialogue.

[Gistok]

Comment from the MLive site:



Let the wine guy go somewhere else.

Pam... is that comment by "Nadine" on the MLIVE site the basis for the "Conservation Site" comment?

I just did a Google on "Blue Heron Conservation" and got thru about 6 pages of mentions of that term... but ALL in other states.

I don't think that that "Nadine" knows what she's talking about [[although I am no expert). That part of Belle Isle was built up from river and lake bottom dredgings.... and every time I visit ITSJEFF's bench... I'm hard pressed to find any wildlife [[or humans) in the area.... just open meadowlands. And that "Blake" fellow pretty much refuted much of what Nadine said. And I agree... the area around the lagoon is among the highest area on the island... no swamp like you find in the forest just west of it.

While a vineyard may not be the best use of Belle Isle land... I would like to see something being done with that nice area of the island [[outside of the Fredrick Law Olmstead designed area)....

Also, I agree with whoever mentioned the Casino... I've never been there... and I've been to the island several hundred times. Isn't it about time that something was done with the casino to make it visitor friendly? And not just rentals or senior activities...