Winery on Belle Isle?

[coracle]

It's a nice idea and I would certainly visit. But once the local populace have been a few times and "been there done that" it would die because Detroit is not a vacation destination drawing in new people all the time.

[jpbollma]

What about the DIA; you don't pay anything towards that.

Nothing is free for our enjoyment. The sooner people realize that the better. To make Belle Isle what it should be you would need either a fee [[which if administered by the clownsil will be wasted), the city would need to pay higher taxes or cut the funding by literally millions for something else, the county or tri-county area could vote to raise taxes to pay for it [[which I doubt would happen after just voting to fund the DIA), the state can take it and make improvements, or you can attract a little private investment. Campus Martius has an evil profit making cafe and I am pretty sure people still enjoy it...

[jpbollma]

Don't underestimate wino's Coracle ! I think with a widening riverfront, multiple new hotels, the DIA, the Zoo, and Casinos if Belle Isle were refurbished and marketed correctly, Detroit could continue becoming more and more of a destination spot. Especially if they start running Ferry's back and forth between Windsor and Downtown as planned. If it failed at least there wouldn't be some hulk of an abandoned building, that guy would just be out money. I DEFINATELY think Detroit has the opportunity to develop some tourism and it would help towards not having all the eggs in one basket [[the auto industry).

[corktownyuppie]

Don't underestimate wino's Coracle ! I think with a widening riverfront, multiple new hotels, the DIA, the Zoo, and Casinos if Belle Isle were refurbished and marketed correctly, Detroit could continue becoming more and more of a destination spot. Especially if they start running Ferry's back and forth between Windsor and Downtown as planned. If it failed at least there wouldn't be some hulk of an abandoned building, that guy would just be out money. I DEFINATELY think Detroit has the opportunity to develop some tourism and it would help towards not having all the eggs in one basket [[the auto industry).

You will see tourism gradually come back to the city. It's already starting. If they can make Belle Isle as nice as the riverfront, have the ferry going from Detroit to Windsor and back, connect the riverfront past the MacArthur Bridge to Gabriel Richard Park, finish the connection from the Dequindre Cut to Eastern Market, you will have the makings of a diverse, vibrant place for people to live and visit.

The good thing is that all of the above are happening, with Belle Isle being the major unknown for right now. What's crazy is that for the last few years, it's been happening out of the awareness to most of SE Michiganders. But people from all over are now seeing it and are becoming interested.

I had a retired couple from Grosse Pointe just tell me that they are poised to move downtown, but they can't do it until they can be assured that an ambulance call will get response in 10 min. or under [[they have health problems).

Some people love the changes, others feel like they're being left behind. But like them or not, they're coming like a freight train.

[Detroitnerd]

Sorry, but when I'm on the island, it's pretty clean, not a lot of litter, full of families cooling off and enjoying a picnic. This is a bad solution for a nonexistent problem, as far as I'm concerned.

But as long as we're at it, why don't you give me part of the island for a tannery I'd like to open?

[antongast]

What about the DIA; you don't pay anything towards that.

Neither will you, when you've sold your house. There's an apartment building with vacancies across the street from me, I'll PM you the number if you'd like.

[corktownyuppie]

This is a bad solution for a nonexistent problem...

I think this is where the rubber really hits the road here. Of course all solutions are going face your resistance, because you don't believe that there is a problem. We'll agree to disagree on that, of course, but at least now it's apparent where the root conflict lies.

And I go for a run at Belle Isle two weekends a month. I understand where you're coming from. But I also understand why out of a 4MM metro, a lot of people would rather find somewhere else to go.

[jpbollma]

Neither will you, when you've sold your house. There's an apartment building with vacancies across the street from me, I'll PM you the number if you'd like.

Even if you live in an apartment, you will still pay for the DIA inadvertently. The landlord will simply pass the cost to the renter. When taxes go up so does rent. The landlords don't normally pay them out of the goodness of their heart, but if they want to, it's their property! I would say that was a big fallacy of that whole campaign...that renters wouldn't pay. They certainly will. I was in favor of the millage.

[Detroitnerd]

And I go for a run at Belle Isle two weekends a month. I understand where you're coming from. But I also understand why out of a 4MM metro, a lot of people would rather find somewhere else to go.

And that's fine. Belle Isle is not a business. It's a public park for everybody. Since when was Belle Isle competing for the footfalls of joggers? You seem to be imposing a business model upon a public resource -- and unnecessarily so.

[jpbollma]

And that's fine. Belle Isle is not a business. It's a public park for everybody. Since when was Belle Isle competing for the footfalls of joggers? You seem to be imposing a business model upon a public resource -- and unnecessarily so.

I would agree, this is where the root of the problem lies between all of our differing opinions on this. For some, once the state comes in and institutes the state park fee, they will likely be able to keep the grounds well maintained and for many that is exactly what they want. I am not sure that the state will have the funding to refurbish structures or reopen the children's zoo or aquarium. Maybe they would? If they spend too much of the state park fund on Belle Isle though, many other municipalities will become angry if their parks are neglected.

Then, I and others would like to retain the vast majority of the park as stated above, but also add some tourist type things as well to bring in tax revenue and make it a destination we would like to see..something similar to a Central Park. So, I think that is definitely where the differences come in.

[corktownyuppie]

And that's fine. Belle Isle is not a business. It's a public park for everybody. Since when was Belle Isle competing for the footfalls of joggers? You seem to be imposing a business model upon a public resource -- and unnecessarily so.

I think public resources should be managed in a way that maximizes the greatest utility for the greatest number of people. I don't necessarily see that as imposing a business model, that's just my general philosophical view of the world. If there's enough baseball mitts for 9 people, then let's find a way to have one kid stay on defense for both teams so that everyone can play.

At the heart of this issue is that many [[and probably most) people think that Belle Isle needs to be improved. Because when they are comparing Belle Isle as a destination against 40 other destinations, Belle Isle loses. That in itself wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that Belle Isle is a unique geographic landmark that is underperforming against its own potential. It's like having 9 baseball gloves but telling people that we're going to just hit some infield practice with 4 people.

In order to maximize the park's utility, either the park needs to be improved [[which costs money) or people's standards of comfort need to change. I gather that what many call "eyesores" and inconveniences are things which don't bother you. Which is fine.

But they bother hundreds of thousands of people, which is why they don't go there.

Luxury is a relative term. When I'm camping in the rain, I'd give anything to be on a couch. When I'm on a friend's couch, I miss my bed. It's useless to argue with people about "what is a luxury" and "what is a necessity", because the standards are subjective to the person individually.

But when the number of people who enjoy the island is so small in comparison to the number who say it lacks necessities, that's a sign that we could maximize the utility...and here lies the heart of the conflict. You see Belle Isle as having all the necessities, and why should the city or the people who enjoy the park have to suffer as result of this incessant desire to add needless luxuries.

Now I don't want to argue about what is or isn't a luxury because there's no answer. It's fact, though, that for the sheer majority, the island lacks the provisions people expect in their recreation.

So if we can find a solution that will please the majority, attract them to the island, maximize the utility of the island, perhaps even increase the attraction for people to move into the city -- all without having to disturb the preferences of the small number of people who enjoy the park as it is -- then why wouldn't we do that? It would result in a nicer park. Nicer parks attract people to live nearby. When people want to live nearby, that adds money to the tax rolls. And those taxes can be used to pay other much needed "luxuries", such as police, fire, and ambulance.

All cities require revenue. All city services cost money. We don't have enough revenue. And our services are overextended.

There is only one path to fix this: $$$

[Detroitnerd]

Oh, jesus. We need tourists on Belle Isle so we have to happily burble on about every specious development plan ever proposed for the island?

What about the proposed gambling casino in the 1990s? Would that get you fired up?

Why not build a sports complex, with a hockey rink, restaurants, shops, a long-track speed skating rink a short-track speed skating rink, a curling rink, and restaurants and commercial spaces?

How about a green design school, with a multistory dormitory right off the bridge?

Why stop there?

Why not fucking junk up the entire landscape with development, development development? Why not fill it up with so much disposable architecture and profit-making development that it earns Detroit millions of dollars a year? And why not cordon off a small area and call it "Olmstedville" with a small entry fee for people who want to actually use the FUCKING PARK FOR WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR?

[antongast]

Even if you live in an apartment, you will still pay for the DIA inadvertently. The landlord will simply pass the cost to the renter. When taxes go up so does rent. The landlords don't normally pay them out of the goodness of their heart, but if they want to, it's their property! I would say that was a big fallacy of that whole campaign...that renters wouldn't pay. They certainly will. I was in favor of the millage.

Yeah, I've kind of given up on explaining that to coracle, but you're more than welcome to give it a shot.

[Detroitnerd]

At the heart of this issue is that many [[and probably most) people think that Belle Isle needs to be improved. Because when they are comparing Belle Isle as a destination against 40 other destinations, Belle Isle loses. That in itself wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that Belle Isle is a unique geographic landmark that is underperforming against its own potential.

I couldn't care less if the park is underperforming in the eyes of other people.

Are city residents barbecuing on the island and enjoying themselves?

Are youngsters running around and playing?

Are old people able to watch the freighters go by?

Is the litter picked up moderately well?

Fine by me. Anybody who wants Stoney Creek can go to Stoney Creek.

And I'm certainly not in favor of giving any of this precious recreational land to outstate businesspeople here to make a profit off the "urban cachet" of Detroit.

Your arguments sound like they have been lifted from a business textbook.

Government is not a business. Sorry.

[corktownyuppie]

I couldn't care less if the park is underperforming in the eyes of other people.

Wait...who is other people? Most Detroiters think that Belle Isle is underperforming in the eyes of Detroiters.

[townonenorth]

Oh, jesus. We need tourists on Belle Isle so we have to happily burble on about every specious development plan ever proposed for the island?

What about the proposed gambling casino in the 1990s? Would that get you fired up?

Why not build a sports complex, with a hockey rink, restaurants, shops, a long-track speed skating rink a short-track speed skating rink, a curling rink, and restaurants and commercial spaces?

How about a green design school, with a multistory dormitory right off the bridge?

Why stop there?

Why not fucking junk up the entire landscape with development, development development? Why not fill it up with so much disposable architecture and profit-making development that it earns Detroit millions of dollars a year? And why not cordon off a small area and call it "Olmstedville" with a small entry fee for people who want to actually use the FUCKING PARK FOR WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR?

Ever heard of landfill? That's how the park was expanded, back in the day. And really, a Navy Pier type of development extending off the North or West End of the Island into the river would not be a real bad thing. All that stuff that you mentioned above would fit on that, or on landfill, saving the park space for people to throw their garbage and empty 40 ouncers on.

[Detroitnerd]

Ever heard of landfill? That's how the park was expanded, back in the day. And really, a Navy Pier type of development extending off the North or West End of the Island into the river would not be a real bad thing. All that stuff that you mentioned above would fit on that, or on landfill, saving the park space for people to throw their garbage and empty 40 ouncers on.

Yes, it's obvious that the lion's share of the people who are for the entry fee and are cheering on any form of profit-making development on the island also despise and stereotype the Detroiters who use the island.

Whereas, if I were joking about inbred, hockey-loving hicks using Stoney Creek, and how we should probably drop a mall in there, I'd be the bad guy, right?

[jpbollma]

I think public resources should be managed in a way that maximizes the greatest utility for the greatest number of people. I don't necessarily see that as imposing a business model, that's just my general philosophical view of the world. If there's enough baseball mitts for 9 people, then let's find a way to have one kid stay on defense for both teams so that everyone can play.

At the heart of this issue is that many [[and probably most) people think that Belle Isle needs to be improved. Because when they are comparing Belle Isle as a destination against 40 other destinations, Belle Isle loses. That in itself wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that Belle Isle is a unique geographic landmark that is underperforming against its own potential. It's like having 9 baseball gloves but telling people that we're going to just hit some infield practice with 4 people.

In order to maximize the park's utility, either the park needs to be improved [[which costs money) or people's standards of comfort need to change. I gather that what many call "eyesores" and inconveniences are things which don't bother you. Which is fine.

But they bother hundreds of thousands of people, which is why they don't go there.

Luxury is a relative term. When I'm camping in the rain, I'd give anything to be on a couch. When I'm on a friend's couch, I miss my bed. It's useless to argue with people about "what is a luxury" and "what is a necessity", because the standards are subjective to the person individually.

But when the number of people who enjoy the island is so small in comparison to the number who say it lacks necessities, that's a sign that we could maximize the utility...and here lies the heart of the conflict. You see Belle Isle as having all the necessities, and why should the city or the people who enjoy the park have to suffer as result of this incessant desire to add needless luxuries.

Now I don't want to argue about what is or isn't a luxury because there's no answer. It's fact, though, that for the sheer majority, the island lacks the provisions people expect in their recreation.

So if we can find a solution that will please the majority, attract them to the island, maximize the utility of the island, perhaps even increase the attraction for people to move into the city -- all without having to disturb the preferences of the small number of people who enjoy the park as it is -- then why wouldn't we do that? It would result in a nicer park. Nicer parks attract people to live nearby. When people want to live nearby, that adds money to the tax rolls. And those taxes can be used to pay other much needed "luxuries", such as police, fire, and ambulance.

All cities require revenue. All city services cost money. We don't have enough revenue. And our services are overextended.

There is only one path to fix this: $$$

I don't think the vast majority of people would want a casino or endless development. You are blowing things slightly out of proportion here. Have you ever been to a winery? They are scenic, beautiful and quiet from all of my experiences. There are 982 acres on that island. if 12 acres are used for a winery, a place to eat, and a small area with rides I don't think the world would end. Again, just my view on the place.

[jpbollma]

Well, Kind of apples to oranges. The people actually have the tax base to pay for Stoney Creek and keep it nice. Detroit cannot do the same for Belle Isle. It is in no way an insult to Detroiters from my end. Even NYC couldn't keep up with Central Park on their own..

[corktownyuppie]

Yes, it's obvious that the lion's share of the people who are for the entry fee and are cheering on any form of profit-making development on the island also despise and stereotype the Detroiters who use the island.

Hockey hicks aside, is it your impression that most Detroiters oppose an entry fee? My impression is that many if not most Detroiters think that Belle Isle is mismanaged and underutilized. Forget the class wars and the condescension coming from the ignorant for a second...are you taking the position that most Detroiters are fine with Belle Isle the way it is?

[Detroitnerd]

SUBURBANITE 1: Gosh, I hate Belle Isle. What a shithole.

SUBURBANITE 2: I know! All those trashy Detroiters, leaving their fried chicken foil and 40 ouncers all over the place? It's disgusting. I'd never go there.

SUBURBANITE 1: I know! I mean, I've never BEEN there and I'm disgusted by it.

SUBURBANITE 2: But what if we made it attractive for, like, you know, FAMILIES to go down there.

SUBURBANITE 1: Yeah! We could impose an entry fee, and set up some BW3s on there!

SUBURBANITE 2: I would totally go if the entry fee screened out the trash!

SUBURBANITE 1: And then we could develop all kinds of profitable stuff down there! Like a mall, a gambling casino, a string of restaurants, drive a seven-lane highway down the middle of it!

SUBURBANITE 2: Yeah! When I went, I hated how long it took to drive around there. Everybody was all, like, driving so slowly. Why? It's a shithole!

SUBURBANITE 1: But if we really developed it with things that people love, like malls, restaurants, seven-lane roads to get around faster, and bowling alleys, and lots and lots of convenient parking lots, it would be ...

SUBURBANITE 2: ... my god, it would be ... beautiful!

[Detroitnerd]

Hockey hicks aside, is it your impression that most Detroiters oppose an entry fee? My impression is that many if not most Detroiters think that Belle Isle is mismanaged and underutilized. Forget the class wars and the condescension coming from the ignorant for a second...are you taking the position that most Detroiters are fine with Belle Isle the way it is?

I'm a Detroiter, and I'm fine with the way it is. The staff pick up the garbage, the police find the lawbreakers, and it's a nice place to have a picnic. Nice views of Canada, cool in the summer. I guess my complaints would be the big honking pad of concrete by the Scott Fountain and the goose poop.

[jpbollma]

SUBURBANITE 1: Gosh, I hate Belle Isle. What a shithole.

SUBURBANITE 2: I know! All those trashy Detroiters, leaving their fried chicken foil and 40 ouncers all over the place? It's disgusting. I'd never go there.

SUBURBANITE 1: I know! I mean, I've never BEEN there and I'm disgusted by it.

SUBURBANITE 2: But what if we made it attractive for, like, you know, FAMILIES to go down there.

SUBURBANITE 1: Yeah! We could impose an entry fee, and set up some BW3s on there!

SUBURBANITE 2: I would totally go if the entry fee screened out the trash!

SUBURBANITE 1: And then we could develop all kinds of profitable stuff down there! Like a mall, a gambling casino, a string of restaurants, drive a seven-lane highway down the middle of it!

SUBURBANITE 2: Yeah! When I went, I hated how long it took to drive around there. Everybody was all, like, driving so slowly. Why? It's a shithole!

SUBURBANITE 1: But if we really developed it with things that people love, like malls, restaurants, seven-lane roads to get around faster, and bowling alleys, and lots and lots of convenient parking lots, it would be ...

SUBURBANITE 2: ... my god, it would be ... beautiful!

LOL. Funny, and I am sure some people feel that way, but I don't think that is exactly what Corktown and I were trying to advocate.

[corktownyuppie]

LOL. Funny, and I am sure some people feel that way, but I don't think that is exactly what Corktown and I were trying to advocate.

Ha. Yes, I'd like to transform to into a miniature version of Hall Road, with 6 lanes in each direction going from end to end. It's all part of my secret plan....

There's a reason why I moved back to the city. It wasn't so I could look down upon families celebrating a Saturday with Chicken Shack.

[Detroitnerd]

Hey, I'm willing to chuckle at my own strident self too. [[Hence picture of me blowing both O-rings.)

But I have to say, I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you are putting forward. Belle Isle is fine for now. When the city become stable and operating in the black again, we will be glad we didn't do anything rash with it.