Winery on Belle Isle?

[corktownyuppie]

You possibly have a very good idea with the urban vineyard DetroitCityCellars.
You just have to understand that Detroiters are especially on edge right now.

We are just worried that if we're not very careful, the few jewels that we have left will be sold right under our noses.

Mr, I, for one, appreciate your level-headed tone. I understand why Detroiters would not our jewels to be sold right under our nose. And I understand why we wouldn't want to show up one day and see a fence.

May I ask, why would Detroiters be worried about either of these things? What happened in the past that would even trigger any of these questions? I've been living here a long timel, and those weren't the concerns that would have immediately come to mind for me; I'm really trying to understand this.

Moreover, why is it so hard for us to see that whether it's this vineyard or any of 2000 other ideas, the goal isn't to have Belle Isle sold from under us. The goal is to PREVENT it from being sold from under us. The best way we prevent it is by making sure we generate enough revenue to sustain itself.

If we didn't want to lose Cobo Hall? The solution is to prevent losing control by generating enough revenue that we don't require outside money.

If we don't want to lose control of DWSD? Then all we have to do is generate enough money to pay its operating expenses. Or lower expenses to put them in line with revenue.

Can you explain the mentality?

[KOMPOST]

Mr, I, for one, appreciate your level-headed tone. I understand why Detroiters would not our jewels to be sold right under our nose. And I understand why we wouldn't want to show up one day and see a fence.

May I ask, why would Detroiters be worried about either of these things? What happened in the past that would even trigger any of these questions? I've been living here a long timel, and those weren't the concerns that would have immediately come to mind for me; I'm really trying to understand this.

Moreover, why is it so hard for us to see that whether it's this vineyard or any of 2000 other ideas, the goal isn't to have Belle Isle sold from under us. The goal is to PREVENT it from being sold from under us. The best way we prevent it is by making sure we generate enough revenue to sustain itself.

If we didn't want to lose Cobo Hall? The solution is to prevent losing control by generating enough revenue that we don't require outside money.

If we don't want to lose control of DWSD? Then all we have to do is generate enough money to pay its operating expenses. Or lower expenses to put them in line with revenue.

Can you explain the mentality?

I must have missed the part where DetroitCityCellars stated that profits would go back into maintenance of the island. I was under the impression that this was a private, for-profit business he is proposing. The kind that are sold to people using words like "synergy" and "job creation" and "trickle down". All of which is fine...if we're talking about a business in the CBD. Not on Belle Isle, though.
Sorry, I'm extremely sceptical of this propsal.

I, too, appreciate Mr Mister's tone, as well as the sentiment. I was told that that part of the island is unused, as evidenced by the "waist high grass". I use this part of the island, too. Have for years. I don't appreciate someone suggesting that it is somehow on par with the Packard Plant.

[corktownyuppie]

I must have missed the part where DetroitCityCellars stated that profits would go back into maintenance of the island. I was under the impression that this was a private, for-profit business he is proposing. The kind that are sold to people using words like "synergy" and "job creation" and "trickle down". All of which is fine...if we're talking about a business in the CBD. Not on Belle Isle, though.
Sorry, I'm extremely sceptical of this proposal.

Synergy, job creation, and trickle down have nothing to do with this.

The idea is that the winery would be paying its revenue to the island. The winery is PAYING the island to reside there. Yes, this is a private business. All that means is that once the winery has paid its monthly obligations to Belle Isle, they will get to keep anything extra. If the winery doesn't generate a lot of money to the island, they're still on the hook to pay their monthly obligation to the island.

Now I understand that those details have not been disclosed. And I think that reasonable people can disagree about whether or not the lease is fair. These details need to be vetted, debated, and discussed.

But to say that they are trying to "take something" from the people is short-sighted. We haven't even seen the proposal yet. The knee-jerk reaction of "Is it a business? Then get the hell out of here" is not constructive.

We say that we don't want to lose control of Belle Isle. Well the solution to that is to generate enough revenue for it to stay in operations. The solution is to make it an attractive place that can generate revenue. Revenue that will *stay on the island*. We can generate revenue by charging admission to the island. Or we can generate revenue by finding a 3rd party willing to run a business on the island. Or we can do both. And we can debate what kinds of businesses we would want or not want on the island. These are all fair points worth lots of debate.

Now to find a 3rd party willing to run a business on the island means that the 3rd party will be taking risks. If they are going to take risks, it's only natural that they will want to also have reward. This does not mean that we "sell the island" or that we work out "sweetheart deals". It means that Belle Isle needs to negotiate something that we can all agree is fair so that Belle Isle gets its necessary revenue and then the private company gets rewarded for running a successful business.

Now if you don't like that idea, and you want the profits to be shared with Belle Isle, I have no problem with that. In order to do that, though, it means Belle Isle needs to be willing to share some of the risks. This might mean that if the company is very, very successful, the company splits those profits over and above the revenue with the island. But if the company is struggling it might mean that Belle Isle gives up some of the rent its owed.

Risks and reward. Risks and reward.

Like I said, I'm not giving any developer or any idea a free pass. Of course not.

What I'm saying is that this notion that someone is trying to take something from us is paranoid -- and worse of all -- self destructive.

We all want a better island. I, for one, don't want A SINGLE PERSON excluded from it. We also don't want to lose control of the island.

Ok. So your choices are to generate revenue from admissions. Or generate revenue from operating some kind of business from the island.

No one is going "just pay for it". Belle Isle doesn't qualify for "Section 8". We don't have the money. We don't want to lose control.

I get that. So let's give this idea a fair shot. And if it's wrong, it's wrong! But saying that it's wrong because is a business doesn't make any sense.

[MrMister]

I can't say that I am against the vineyard, even if it does occupy one of the best areas of Belle Isle [[two actually, didn't they want the casino too?) At this point, I'm hoping for the success of any business that wants to open its doors in Detroit.

But I would be a lot happier to support this exact same idea, executed somewhere other than Belle Isle.

I may sound paranoid, but I'm worried that one day I'll wake up and realize that Belle Isle is a gated community.

[Gistok]

Is that why there's no longer any music at the Belle Isle Bandstand? Is that why there's no longer any "real" boat rides along the islands canals? Because if someone should make any money [[God forbid)... the dream crushers and NIMBY folks come out in full force...

[DetroitCityCellars]

Synergy, job creation, and trickle down have nothing to do with this.

The idea is that the winery would be paying its revenue to the island. The winery is PAYING the island to reside there. Yes, this is a private business. All that means is that once the winery has paid its monthly obligations to Belle Isle, they will get to keep anything extra. If the winery doesn't generate a lot of money to the island, they're still on the hook to pay their monthly obligation to the island.

Now I understand that those details have not been disclosed. And I think that reasonable people can disagree about whether or not the lease is fair. These details need to be vetted, debated, and discussed.

But to say that they are trying to "take something" from the people is short-sighted. We haven't even seen the proposal yet. The knee-jerk reaction of "Is it a business? Then get the hell out of here" is not constructive.

We say that we don't want to lose control of Belle Isle. Well the solution to that is to generate enough revenue for it to stay in operations. The solution is to make it an attractive place that can generate revenue. Revenue that will *stay on the island*. We can generate revenue by charging admission to the island. Or we can generate revenue by finding a 3rd party willing to run a business on the island. Or we can do both. And we can debate what kinds of businesses we would want or not want on the island. These are all fair points worth lots of debate.

Now to find a 3rd party willing to run a business on the island means that the 3rd party will be taking risks. If they are going to take risks, it's only natural that they will want to also have reward. This does not mean that we "sell the island" or that we work out "sweetheart deals". It means that Belle Isle needs to negotiate something that we can all agree is fair so that Belle Isle gets its necessary revenue and then the private company gets rewarded for running a successful business.

Now if you don't like that idea, and you want the profits to be shared with Belle Isle, I have no problem with that. In order to do that, though, it means Belle Isle needs to be willing to share some of the risks. This might mean that if the company is very, very successful, the company splits those profits over and above the revenue with the island. But if the company is struggling it might mean that Belle Isle gives up some of the rent its owed.

Risks and reward. Risks and reward.

Like I said, I'm not giving any developer or any idea a free pass. Of course not.

What I'm saying is that this notion that someone is trying to take something from us is paranoid -- and worse of all -- self destructive.

We all want a better island. I, for one, don't want A SINGLE PERSON excluded from it. We also don't want to lose control of the island.

Ok. So your choices are to generate revenue from admissions. Or generate revenue from operating some kind of business from the island.

No one is going "just pay for it". Belle Isle doesn't qualify for "Section 8". We don't have the money. We don't want to lose control.

I get that. So let's give this idea a fair shot. And if it's wrong, it's wrong! But saying that it's wrong because is a business doesn't make any sense.

Corktown, your level headedness and contimued interest is appreciated. A project like this should be vetted to the full extent. I appreciate that you do not immediately villify us for the simple fact that we would like to turn a profit. A modest one at that. Belle Isle needs more help, ASAP.

[corktownyuppie]

I may sound paranoid, but I'm worried that one day I'll wake up and realize that Belle Isle is a gated community.

That would be a tragic ending and must be prevented at all costs. Or by any means necessary. Etc.

I ask this for my own curiosity but also because DetroitCityCellars needs to understand the dynamics at play here as well.

Where does this fear come from? The Riverfront was turned over to a Conservancy and it's still open to the public. Campus Martius is also open to the public. Both of them have businesses on them which are run by private owners....revenue from those businesses come back the locations in the form of rent. Public Library still open to the public. DIA now has free admission to all residents in Detroit. Balduck Park? Still open to all.

At 34, I know I'm young. And my parents didn't get here until the late 70s. But in my memory [[and theirs), we don't ever recall something publicly owned being turned into any kind of gated anything.

I understand the evils of redlining as well as the predator lending practices of some financial institutions. And I know that civil rights were hard fought during an era where racism was not only acceptable, but rewarded. I get that. But has it ever happened in recent times that someone came in, took over a public space, and then excluded people from it?

This is isn't an attack I'm making on you. It's just that the idea is just soooooo foreign to me that I truly would like to better understand where it stems from.

[jt1]

That would be a tragic ending and must be prevented at all costs. Or by any means necessary. Etc.

I ask this for my own curiosity but also because DetroitCityCellars needs to understand the dynamics at play here as well.

Where does this fear come from? The Riverfront was turned over to a Conservancy and it's still open to the public. Campus Martius is also open to the public. Both of them have businesses on them which are run by private owners....revenue from those businesses come back the locations in the form of rent. Public Library still open to the public. DIA now has free admission to all residents in Detroit. Balduck Park? Still open to all.

At 34, I know I'm young. And my parents didn't get here until the late 70s. But in my memory [[and theirs), we don't ever recall something publicly owned being turned into any kind of gated anything.

I understand the evils of redlining as well as the predator lending practices of some financial institutions. And I know that civil rights were hard fought during an era where racism was not only acceptable, but rewarded. I get that. But has it ever happened in recent times that someone came in, took over a public space, and then excluded people from it?

This is isn't an attack I'm making on you. It's just that the idea is just soooooo foreign to me that I truly would like to better understand where it stems from.

Should we discuss the bang up job the state did when they took over DPS?

[jt1]

Why hasn't DCC addressed DNerd's intitial questions [[those I supported in a pervious post)? He keeps saying he will address them but has only addressed 1 or 2

[jt1]

Corktown, your level headedness and contimued interest is appreciated. A project like this should be vetted to the full extent. I appreciate that you do not immediately villify us for the simple fact that we would like to turn a profit. A modest one at that. Belle Isle needs more help, ASAP.

I'm curious - have you contacted or worked with FOBI yet?

[corktownyuppie]

Should we discuss the bang up job the state did when they took over DPS?

The state took a big mess and left it even bigger with DPS.

But what does that have to do with Belle Isle? The problems are totally disparate and unrelated. DPS suffers from structural financial problems that will be difficult to solve, no matter who is in charge. But the financial problems are just the tip of the iceberg. Many of the kids attending DPS come from a socioeconomic background that works against them academically long before they even enter a classroom. This is a puzzle that will require sociologists, social workers, educators, bankers, civic leaders, and families working together to improve results. You could spend twice as much on the kids, and that wouldn't necessarily get you better results.

Belle Isle is a park. Its biggest and only problem is a lack of financial resources. Second to that is that because it is financially one and the same with the city, then it suffers as the city suffers. You could eliminate that problem alone just by making it a stand-alone entity.

There's a few ways you could improve the park. You can charge everyone an admissions fee, but it's clear that you will offend many in the process. The poor would be the hurt the most and no longer able to enjoy the park.

But what if I proposed a different kind of admissions fee...one where poor people got to use the park for free while rich people picked up the tab? One where those with means were subsidizing those struggling?

That's the solution that we're all going for here by putting a business on the island. The poor will still be able to enter and use the entire island for free. While rich people, the people who are spending their money frequenting the businesses on the island, pick up the tab by spending their money on a business which is obligated to share that money with the island.

Now we can argue about what kind of business is appropriate, and we can debate how much that business should be required to pay the island. Like I said, I have no problem with that.

And lastly, we can set up whatever measures we need to ensure that all have fair access to Belle Isle. I mean, Jesus, the island is huge. Again, the purpose of the business isn't to screw the poor. It exists to subsidize the poor.

Campus Martius is free and has no entrance fee. Thursday nights they even show free movies at night on the big screen. All are welcome. It's clean and beautiful. Much of that is paid for from rent collected from a private business -- a restaurant -- on the park. Because there's no admissions fee, anyone can come.

Many on this board lament -- and perhaps blame -- the fact that people with means and money abandoned the city 30-40 years ago, eroding a tax base and leaving the city financials in shambles. I agree that much of that was racially motivated, short-sighted, and we're all paying the price for it now.

But here we are, 40 years later, trying to bring rich people and their money back. We're trying to do so in a way where rich people will pay a "voluntary admissions fee" via doing business with a private business owner on Belle Isle.

Whether it's a winery or not, you have to admit that putting private enterprise on the island is a way to have rich people cover the bill for poor people...if it's done right.

Is this fear of a gated community or "jewels being taken away" related to what's going on around the Marathon Refinery neighborhoods? Or is it related to the EAA or the emergency manager?

If so, I think people are confusing the message with the messenger. Just because it's white people from outside the city that are telling you that things need to change doesn't mean they are the ones causing the change. Most of the changes that are screwing all of us right now have to do with economic shifts 50 years in the making.

[MrMister]

I was worried that my comment would be taken a little to seriously.
I was being a little bit tongue in cheek.
I think it would be very unlikely that Belle Isle would ever fall into the hands of private developers. But it still scares me. That is one prime piece of real estate.

The difference between this project and the Riverfront, or Campus Martius isn't the private money, its the public's access.

I agree wholeheartedly that we need to get people into Detroit with expendable income.

I just feel that there's no reason to develop Belle Isle as the place where they come and spend their dough.

I'm sure the issue of Jean Klock Park in Benton Harbor has probably been beaten to death on this forum. Decent article here if you're interested.
But essentially the heart of a beautiful park was sold to developers to build a Jack Nicklaus golf course.
And of course its a great boon to the city. The golf course, and surrounding housing development are bringing dollars and jobs hand over fist. But at what cost?
Someday, if the city planners are successful, all of the storefronts and homes it Benton Harbor will be filled again. But then its residents will be in a very full city, and want some public space to relax in. And they'll realize that something that was once a park, is now a private club.

As I've said before. I can't in good conscience be against any idea that brings dollars, and love, AND wine to Detroit. But I would be much happier to support this idea on a non Belle Isle site [[maybe even a place with room for expansion?).

[corktownyuppie]

I was worried that my comment would be taken a little to seriously.
I was being a little bit tongue in cheek.
I think it would be very unlikely that Belle Isle would ever fall into the hands of private developers. But it still scares me. That is one prime piece of real estate.

The difference between this project and the Riverfront, or Campus Martius isn't the private money, its the public's access.

I agree wholeheartedly that we need to get people into Detroit with expendable income.

I just feel that there's no reason to develop Belle Isle as the place where they come and spend their dough.

Agree about the Benton Harbor situation. And I would heartbroken if that happened on Belle Isle. We should take all measures to prevent it.

That said, and we can agree to disagree on this, there are 2 components to why I think it [[or something else) needs to be on Belle Isle: [[1) If it's on Belle Isle, the rent they're paying can go straight to some Belle Isle Conservancy/Authority. So that all that money stays on the island. If it's somewhere else in the city, the rent [[and property taxes) go into the general fund. Which is like throwing a needle into a haystack that's floating on the Bermuda Triangle, [[2) Belle Isle is one of few places in Detroit where people from all over the state would visit. You could put the same winery in Indian Village and the number of visitors [[and the rent the city would collect) would drop drastically.

But, I understand your point. You're worried about a slippery slope. And given our history of slippery politicians, both black and white and city and suburb, it would be good for our entrepreneurial friend to realize that he needs to address these fears way in advance and head them off.

You said something interesting that I didn't quite understand...

The difference between this project and the Riverfront, or Campus Martius isn't the private money, its the public's access.

What is the distinction between the Riverfront, Campus Martius, and Belle Isle? They're all city-owned property that are open to the public with no admission fee. Do you mind clarifying?

[Lowell]

Update: We took up DetroitCityCellar's offer and held a wine tasting at the DetroitYES "World Headquarters" in the Michigan Building in downtown Detroit.

It would be great if I could do a guided tasting with your group. I have recently released new wines under the Lynn Aleksandr label, and would like to see what your group thinks. I have a 2010 Cabernet Sauvignon, 2011 Pinot Grigio, a 2011 Vidal Blanc. 100% Michigan Fruit. 100% made by me.

A mix of local wine aficionados, AtDetroit staff and friends assembled for the event. Some DetroitYES members who were involved in the thread were invited but in the end only one could make it.

Following the tasting with excellent delicacies, DetroitCityCellars held a highly informative and impassioned symposium, making his case with partner John Burtka, as to the why's of wine in Detroit and on Belle Isle.

This was captured on video by Cortney Casey of http://www.michiganbythebottle.com/

[rondinjp]

Update: We took up DetroitCityCellar's offer and held a wine tasting at the DetroitYES "World Headquarters" in the Michigan Building in downtown Detroit.


A mix of local wine aficionados, AtDetroit staff and friends assembled for the event. Some DetroitYES members who were involved in the thread were invited but in the end only one could make it.

Following the tasting with excellent delicacies, DetroitCityCellars held a highly informative and impassioned symposium, making his case with partner John Burtka, as to the why's of wine in Detroit and on Belle Isle.

This was captured on video by Cortney Casey of http://www.michiganbythebottle.com/

Thanks for the link Lowell, that was a great update on the proposed winery. Did he indicate where the biggest hold-up still remained [[e.g. city or state)? Having just been down on the island for the opening of the aquarium I walked over to the proposed location and was amazed at how much land there actually was there for the vineyard. I hope that they are able to bring this to fruition [[pun intended) as I agree with him that this could become as big, if not bigger, a tourist destination as traverse city or the west side of the state currently is.

Also, I loved how he was standing in front of your painting the entire duration of the speech!

[KOMPOST]

The Riverfront was turned over to a Conservancy and it's still open to the public.

Not trying to nitpick here, but I was stopped on my bike at "The Riverfront" one beautiful Saturday morning in July and told to pay $3.00 to ride through. True story.

Synergy, job creation, and trickle down have nothing to do with this.

6:32 of the video.

[Lowell]

Roninjp, the biggest opposition DetroitCityCellar's mentioned is from the Belle Isle Conservancy board, the umbrella group for all the former Belle Isle advocacy groups such as the Friends of Belle Isle.

Having been an on and off FOBI dues-paying member over the years, I am familiar with and understand their sentiment. The hard core is adamantly opposed to any non-public interests. The once grand plan to build casinos and hotels really fueled that sentiment.

While largely in agreement with that position, I think opposition is wrong in this instance as the project is in harmony with nature, land remediation and will create a visitor attraction that is both beautiful and informative. Contrast this with the Grand Prix's lifeless acres of the concrete paddock that gets use once a year. Obviously they don't have Roger Penske's billions behind them and, in fact, face great risk in the undertaking.

As for City Consul, Charles Pugh has been supportive but, as it has not arrived at that level, it is difficult to gauge that outcome.

While the proponents face a great hurdles as to Belle Isle, it is not the only site where they envision the spreading of viticulture along the Straits of Detroit, expressing interest in developing sites on the City of Detroit's abundant vacant land. However that too faces hurdles regarding ordinances as Hantz has discovered.

I think the video shows both the sincerity and energy of DetroitCityCellar's and his partners and deserves favorable consideration in this innovative plan that holds a lot of positive potential for the City of Detroit for tourism and job creation as well demonstrating new thinking.

[mikeinmotown]

That sounds like a cool idea, but SE Michigan doesn't have quite the right climate for a production vineyard, I think. The problem is the scorching hot summers, which annihilate grape crops. Grape vines are delicate plants, and favor very temperate and calm climates. They don't even like wind that much, which would be a pretty big problem at the lighthouse site.

They could grow hops and other grains and do a brewery/distillery, though

The climate would work if they plant the right vines. Being so close to the water helps. The problem would be the types of grapes they would have to grow. The grapes that grow the best in this type of climate are the sweeter ones. Pt Peele is famous for their Ice Wines.

[corktownyuppie]

Not trying to nitpick here, but I was stopped on my bike at "The Riverfront" one beautiful Saturday morning in July and told to pay $3.00 to ride through. True story.

6:32 of the video.

I don't deny the truth of your statement. I do think it warrants some explanation. I run through the riverfront 3 days a week. I've never been asked to pay money, nor have I ever seen anyone collecting money.

That's not to say that it hasn't happened. I'm just saying that I'd like to hear more about why.

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
Synergy, job creation, and trickle down have nothing to do with this.

6:32 of the video.

I'm saying they have nothing to do with it this from the point of view of the citizen. The city's role is to provide services, not jobs. I would love for it to create 20 jobs. I would love even more for it to create 200 jobs. But I don't really care if that's the outcome, because that's not its objective.

[Gistok]

The climate would work if they plant the right vines. Being so close to the water helps. The problem would be the types of grapes they would have to grow. The grapes that grow the best in this type of climate are the sweeter ones. Pt Peele is famous for their Ice Wines.

Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese sound good to me.... as well as "Eiswein"....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beerenauslese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trockenbeerenauslese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiswein

One of the top 3 of white wine varieties, the Riesling grape would likely make for a good wine on Belle Isle...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riesling