Third Avenue Becomes A Two-Way

**royce** · August-11-12, 01:54 AM

Third Avenue was converted into a two-way street with bike lanes back in May or June. I guess this was a good idea. Definitely helps drivers get around Midtown a little quicker. What do you think? Is Second Avenue next?

**stasu1213** · August-11-12, 07:37 AM

I think that streets such as Second, Third, or John R would be great for the express rapid busses also. Those streets are lightly traveled and the busses could go nonstop from Downtown, to the New Center area, to Highland Park, to 8 mile. Second avenue would be nice as a two way traffic avenue. The city no longer have the heavy traffic coming from downtown out into the neighborhoods that it once had before the installation of freeways.

**jackie5275** · August-11-12, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Third Avenue was converted into a two-way street with bike lanes back in May or June. I guess this was a good idea. Definitely helps drivers get around Midtown a little quicker. What do you think? Is Second Avenue next?

Second became a 2 way street last week at least between Baltimore & the Blvd. It also has a bike lane.

**DetroitPlanner** · August-11-12, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by royce

Third Avenue was converted into a two-way street with bike lanes back in May or June. I guess this was a good idea. Definitely helps drivers get around Midtown a little quicker. What do you think? Is Second Avenue next?

Yes.

South of WSU superblock
http://www.semcog.org/Data/Apps/tran...password=guest

North of WSU superblock
http://www.semcog.org/Data/Apps/tran...password=guest

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-12, 08:58 AM

My friend was complaining about this. She's lived in the neighborhood for years and years and used to take Third downtown all the time. Now, with the two-way traffic and stop signs, she complains that it's like the suburbs. Maybe she's onto something. It does seem more like a suburban traffic pattern to make it two-way and put the onus on those using the thoroughfare to stop every few blocks.

**rjlj** · August-13-12, 09:21 AM

The secret is that the suburbs are trying to take over the city and turn it into suburbia starting with changing one way roads and bike paths. Soon to follow is garbage cleanup and new construction.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

My friend was complaining about this. She's lived in the neighborhood for years and years and used to take Third downtown all the time. Now, with the two-way traffic and stop signs, she complains that it's like the suburbs. Maybe she's onto something. It does seem more like a suburban traffic pattern to make it two-way and put the onus on those using the thoroughfare to stop every few blocks.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-12, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by rjlj

The secret is that the suburbs are trying to take over the city and turn it into suburbia starting with changing one way roads and bike paths. Soon to follow is garbage cleanup and new construction.

Hey, that's funny. Except that garbage "pickup" isn't really a problem in the city. And there is plenty of new construction. But thanks for that crack.

By the way, the 1980s called. They want their jokes back.

**jt1** · August-13-12, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Hey, that's funny. Except that garbage "pickup" isn't really a problem in the city. And there is plenty of new construction. But thanks for that crack.

By the way, the 1980s called. They want their jokes back.

I do love the garbage pick up jokes form people that don't know squat about the city. As far as I'm concerned the two services that are great in the city are garbage pick up and parking enforcement.

Given that people can make cracks about DPD/DFD response times, lighting, blight, etc it is silly to mock a very solid garbage pick up.

**swingline** · August-13-12, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

My friend was complaining about this. She's lived in the neighborhood for years and years and used to take Third downtown all the time. Now, with the two-way traffic and stop signs, she complains that it's like the suburbs. Maybe she's onto something. It does seem more like a suburban traffic pattern to make it two-way and put the onus on those using the thoroughfare to stop every few blocks.

The changes on Second and Third are not promoting some sort of suburban traffic pattern. Rather, the changes are attempting to promote higher and better uses for the adjoining land and buildings by down-grading those streets from a principal arterial classification/design to something akin to a minor arterial classification/design. These relatively wide streets have long ceased to be needed as traffic movers. They should now be primarily used to assist the function of the abutting property. Two-way traffic and stop signs will promote this goal.

**DetroitPlanner** · August-13-12, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

My friend was complaining about this. She's lived in the neighborhood for years and years and used to take Third downtown all the time. Now, with the two-way traffic and stop signs, she complains that it's like the suburbs. Maybe she's onto something. It does seem more like a suburban traffic pattern to make it two-way and put the onus on those using the thoroughfare to stop every few blocks.

Keep in mind that 2nd and Third Street was converted into a two-way-pair around the time that the automobile started to clog the roadways [[or when the earliest sprawl began filling now urban areas like Palmer Woods, Ferndale, or University District) in order to ease congestion in a pre-freeway Detroit.

Two way streets do provide better access to land uses along both roadways with less of a need to circle blocks to get to the final destination. Both roads are not congested. This means we can reduce turning movements as well as provide space for bicyclists within the current right of way.

The removal of two-way pairs will reduce the racetrack feel that now exists on these roads. Many places have gotten rid of thier two way pairs in favor of two way roads. Examples include Ann Arbor, Jackson, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, and Muskegon. Some of these have even gotten rid of pedestrian malls as part of the equation to make streets more useful for its transit and other users [[both passenger car and trucks supplying goods).

In my opinion this has been needed since WSU was superblocked.

**poobert** · August-13-12, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

I do love the garbage pick up jokes form people that don't know squat about the city. As far as I'm concerned the two services that are great in the city are garbage pick up and parking enforcement.

Given that people can make cracks about DPD/DFD response times, lighting, blight, etc it is silly to mock a very solid garbage pick up.

Regular garbage pickup is indeed quite flawless, however lately bulk trash days seem to be running days behind their scheduled dates!

**mtburb** · August-13-12, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The removal of two-way pairs will reduce the racetrack feel that now exists on these roads.

Does that mean that 10 years from now, there will be no more two-way-paired streets? If so, how are we able to get rid of the John R.-Brush pair? Or what about Warren-Forest Avenues? I know the latter pair became a two-way pair a bit late because there were streetcars still on Warren and it was too expensive to modify the streetcar tracks, especially since the then-DSR was in the middle of discontinuing the streetcars, so they had to discontinue the Warren streetcars in order to create the two-way pair.

**Detroitnerd** · August-13-12, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by mtburb

Does that mean that 10 years from now, there will be no more two-way-paired streets? If so, how are we able to get rid of the John R.-Brush pair? Or what about Warren-Forest Avenues? I know the latter pair became a two-way pair a bit late because there were streetcars still on Warren and it was too expensive to modify the streetcar tracks, especially since the then-DSR was in the middle of discontinuing the streetcars, so they had to discontinue the Warren streetcars in order to create the two-way pair.

Urban planning, while an important job, and one that I have a lot of respect for, does tend to be unusually susceptible to fads and categorical tastes. The fad right now is that all one-way streets must be turned into two-way streets to slow down traffic. Never-no-mind that one-way streets are good at providing narrower streets that add to the human scale of neighborhoods and slow down traffic quite nicely anyway.

Other urban planning fads today include roundabouts [[crossings where motorists and pedestrians can't see each other coming), medians [[where pedestrians can wait in the baking sun because the light has to change quickly, maybe get to smell some flowers where the center-running rail should be anyway), bump outs [[which eliminate about one parking spot per block), streetscaping [[which gives the appearance of affluence without any added economic activity), bollards [[which sequester off non-auto areas but are also hazards for cyclists) and bike lanes [[which discourage bicycles from being ridden like any other vehicle). They change just often enough to provide a revenue stream for contractors.

**Doma** · August-13-12, 06:36 PM

I see many of the things you just mentioned in thriving and successful cities all across the country, Detroit needs change and I think that re-imagining the transportation system in Detroit is a very positive thing.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Urban planning, while an important job, and one that I have a lot of respect for, does tend to be unusually susceptible to fads and categorical tastes. The fad right now is that all one-way streets must be turned into two-way streets to slow down traffic. Never-no-mind that one-way streets are good at providing narrower streets that add to the human scale of neighborhoods and slow down traffic quite nicely anyway.

Other urban planning fads today include roundabouts [[crossings where motorists and pedestrians can't see each other coming), medians [[where pedestrians can wait in the baking sun because the light has to change quickly, maybe get to smell some flowers where the center-running rail should be anyway), bump outs [[which eliminate about one parking spot per block), streetscaping [[which gives the appearance of affluence without any added economic activity), bollards [[which sequester off non-auto areas but are also hazards for cyclists) and bike lanes [[which discourage bicycles from being ridden like any other vehicle). They change just often enough to provide a revenue stream for contractors.

**royce** · August-14-12, 02:53 AM

I grew up between Warren and Forest and always liked the idea of the two being pairs of one way streets. Crossing each street as a kid was made much easier by the fact that you didn't have to worry about traffic coming at you in both directions. More stop signs or traffic lights would have to go up on these streets if they were ever made two-ways again. That would slow traffic down, but discourage many drivers like myself who like driving down one-ways to avoid the congestion of two-ways. In my old neighborhood in the past and now, Forest, Warren, Charlevoix, and Vernor are one way streets that eastsiders use to avoid all the traffic lights on streets like Gratiot, Mack, Kercheval, and Jefferson.

The parts of Warren that are one way probably should become two-way in order to align it with the rest of the parts of Warren that are two-way. Even Forest would be fine as a two-way. However, I could never see Charlevoix and Vernor as two-way streets. It just would feel strange.

**Detroitnerd** · August-14-12, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Doma

I see many of the things you just mentioned in thriving and successful cities all across the country, Detroit needs change and I think that re-imagining the transportation system in Detroit is a very positive thing.

Oh, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I just challenge the thinking that goes like this.

1) Portland is a successful city.

2) Portland has bike lanes, bump outs, bollards, berms and band shells.

3) Therefore, if Detroit installs bike lanes, bump outs, bollards, berms and band shells, Detroit will become as successful as Portland.

I think we're always looking for silver bullets, you know? It's just so tempting to conclude that because Portland has bike lanes that if we lay down bike lanes the prosperity will follow. For instance, in Hamtramck, they streetscaped Joseph Campau and added bump outs and upgraded street lighting. The net effect hasn't been very impressive. In fact, the thoroughfare without any of those improvements, Conant, has exploded while Joseph Campau has seen a slight uptick.

Also, as with all things, they can be done well or done poorly. You can go to the trouble of installing bike lanes when there are scores of parallel streets that cyclists can already use. You can add bollards in such a way that they pose hazards. You can add medians like the Livernois median, which hurt local businesses by making motorists drive out of their way when they used to have to make a simple turn to get somewhere.

Anyway, I think that to criticize the faddishness of urban planning is to do it a service. What's wrong with a conversation about what's good and bad, what's well-implemented and poorly implemented? Seems the more input the better.

**Islandman** · August-14-12, 12:43 PM

Exactly right, DN. Joseph Campau is a mess. I'm surprised they didn't add a bike lane in there to add to the chaos.

**Hermod** · August-14-12, 12:49 PM

The beauty of "paired up" one way streets is that you can synchronize the traffic lights. Before I-75, you went from 8-mile to downtown [[and vice-versa) on John R and Brush. Once you left a stoplight, if you religiously followed the speed limit, all of the following lights would be green for you. It controlled speeding very well.

**I <3 DET** · August-14-12, 01:11 PM

Two way roads will help increase the traffic flow on Third avenue. But will reduce the safety that one way roads offer.
The conversion of one way roads to two way roads has been happening for years in cities like Flint etc.

**Chinman** · August-14-12, 01:18 PM

does anyone know the speed limit on 3rd and 2nd?
last saturday, wayne state police were pulling over car after car on 3rd.
he had a speed trap set up. after seeing that i have tried to find a speed limit sign on both and have not found one.

**I <3 DET** · August-14-12, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Chinman

does anyone know the speed limit on 3rd and 2nd?
last saturday, wayne state police were pulling over car after car on 3rd.
he had a speed trap set up. after seeing that i have tried to find a speed limit sign on both and have not found one.

The speed limit for 2nd Avenue is 30 MPH. So the speed limit is probably 30 MPH on 3rd Avenue as well.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=42.344557...42.82,,0,-1.11

**Pcm** · August-15-12, 07:24 PM

I live between 3rd and 4th, south of Forest, and absolutely love that Third is now a two way. Life makes more sense now.

The problem with this area is that nearly every main drag [[Warren, Forest, Second, Third) were one-ways. I'm constantly going out of my way because of the inflexibility of these roads.

I also think that business on Cass has been successful partly because the two way street provides auto traffic easy access to said business. Third has nothing. Second has some, and I think it would be better served as a two way. Business on Cass and Second would most certainly benefit from the "fad" of streetscaping. I challenge any of you to walk these blocks in summer sun. Miserable and almost unbearable.

Also, there were no street lights or stop signs added to Third because of the alteration. There is a light at Selden [[always was), Mack [[always), and Temple [[always).

**DetroitPlanner** · August-15-12, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I think we're always looking for silver bullets, you know? It's just so tempting to conclude that because Portland has bike lanes that if we lay down bike lanes the prosperity will follow. For instance, in Hamtramck, they streetscaped Joseph Campau and added bump outs and upgraded street lighting. The net effect hasn't been very impressive. In fact, the thoroughfare without any of those improvements, Conant, has exploded while Joseph Campau has seen a slight uptick.

Anyway, I think that to criticize the faddishness of urban planning is to do it a service. What's wrong with a conversation about what's good and bad, what's well-implemented and poorly implemented? Seems the more input the better.

The conversion was a proposal brought forward by the Midtown people and the DPW. Public input was solicited but none was received. Sometimes the apathy around here amazes me.

Regarding Silver Bullets, Detroit needs gold ones. Comparing Detroit that has suffered 60 years of de-industrialization to a growing city with lots of economic generators is not a solution. With every industrial job shed, the region loses 2-3 others through spin offs that the industry provided. Those spinoffs included everything from waitstaff to IT professionals.

We need to learn what has worked and more importantly what has not in similar places like Flint, Gary, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, who went down the rathole before we did.

**wolverine** · August-16-12, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Urban planning, while an important job, and one that I have a lot of respect for, does tend to be unusually susceptible to fads and categorical tastes. The fad right now is that all one-way streets must be turned into two-way streets to slow down traffic. Never-no-mind that one-way streets are good at providing narrower streets that add to the human scale of neighborhoods and slow down traffic quite nicely anyway.

Other urban planning fads today include roundabouts [[crossings where motorists and pedestrians can't see each other coming), medians [[where pedestrians can wait in the baking sun because the light has to change quickly, maybe get to smell some flowers where the center-running rail should be anyway), bump outs [[which eliminate about one parking spot per block), streetscaping [[which gives the appearance of affluence without any added economic activity), bollards [[which sequester off non-auto areas but are also hazards for cyclists) and bike lanes [[which discourage bicycles from being ridden like any other vehicle). They change just often enough to provide a revenue stream for contractors.

Well, I do agree planning fads exist, but I don't see any reason to not segregate modes. For example, cycle tracks prevent motorists from veering into the bicycle lane and eliminate instances of "dooring" Streets with cycle tracks also require 4-way stops because intersection visibility is decreased seeing other vehicles causing drivers to be more cautious when performing turns. However the visibility of pedestrians and cyclists are increased. Same with bump-outs.

**Detroitnerd** · August-16-12, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

The conversion was a proposal brought forward by the Midtown people and the DPW. Public input was solicited but none was received. Sometimes the apathy around here amazes me.

How was the public informed, I wonder. Via a notice in Detroit Legal News? I wonder if you're mistaking a lack of outreach and community awareness for apathy.

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Regarding Silver Bullets, Detroit needs gold ones. Comparing Detroit that has suffered 60 years of de-industrialization to a growing city with lots of economic generators is not a solution. With every industrial job shed, the region loses 2-3 others through spin offs that the industry provided. Those spinoffs included everything from waitstaff to IT professionals.

That's nice rhetoric, but it doesn't really address the problems I raised. The problem is to adopt the trimmings of success and confuse it with the root causes of success. That's a cargo cult mentality that wastes precious resources.

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

We need to learn what has worked and more importantly what has not in similar places like Flint, Gary, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, who went down the rathole before we did.

Fair enough. And you'll notice I didn't really criticize turning Third into a two-way. [[A friend sure did. A friend who has lived in the area a long time, at that.) But if the idea is that you put down bike lanes and party stores become Starbuckses, ghetto palms become honey locusts, and homeless people become kiosks, I think it's just magical thinking at work.

Enough half-measures. Bring on the light rail already!