Phoenix Center Demo?

[detlump]

I've seen a couple articles online about Pontiac wanting to demo this structure. It seems like such a waste as it is not old and appears to be in decent shape. While it may not have lived up to expectations, isn't there some way to save it?

[DetroitPlanner]

The Phoenix Center is a parking garage with a public space on top of it.

The issues are two-fold:
1). The structure is oversized and rarely fills up. With the Lions playing at Ford Field, it is doubtful that it will ever be used to its capacity. The public space on top was also seen as an alternative to places like Meadowbrook or Pine Knob/DTE/Chene Park. One glitch though, it does not have any seats so it is hard to book acts there.

2). The cost of maintaining an rarely used structure of this size is quite large. It requires a substantial subsidy from the City of Pontiac to keep the place open and maintained. Pontiac is a City that can barely afford basic services and this is money that could be better spent on police, fire, and other things that would make the City attractive to its residents.

You can argue that the City should mothball it, but to do so would be a liability. Roads run through the Phoenix Center and kids will no doubt be attracted to it enough to want to break in and cause further damage.

I think its ironic that someone on this forum would want to save a giant unused parking garage!

[Krawlspace]

Actually, Phoenix Plaza does have seats. 3000 permanent seats were added in the renovation of 2005. Behind the seating is a grassy hill which can accommodate 3000+ additional patrons, and the open layout leaves wide areas on either side for stranding room. The new stage, while poorly designed with a 10' rise from the main floor, is one of the largest in the market, has good sized wings, and a depth which makes multiple band changeovers a breeze. The backstage has a very large Green Room, smallish house production office, two standard size dressing rooms, and two very large dressing rooms, each with shower facilities.

I've been in the concert and festival industry for over 15 years and can honestly say the set up there was not bad at all relative to other venues in the area. I worked in house production for the Arts Beats & Eats festivals beginning in 2003 until 2010 when the event moved to Royal Oak. The events were a blast and the Plaza really is a great place to work a show.

There are several reasons why the Plaza has failed as a concert venue. One is due to the fact that it is owned by the City of Pontiac. For some reason, municipally owned venues never seem to live up to their potential. [[See Chene Park). The situation with the city is what drove Jon Witz to leave and thereby remove the signature event for the venue. There was a lot of garbage that the city threw out there that just made it difficult to operate.

Additionally, without a separate operator for the talent buying end of the business, the city then becomes liable for all contract obligations. What a lot of concert going patrons don't realize is that a guarantee is written into contracts for the artist regardless of the amount of tickets sold. So if you book a band with a $50K guarantee, and door revenue comes to $40K, guess who's on the hook for the $10K? The buyer or their agency. For an outdoor venue that depends a lot on day of sales, rain can literally kill the deal. Not many municipalities have the ability to face the tax paying residents and say, "Oops, we lost $10 on that deal because it rained." Nor do they have the beginning capital needed to book a full summer season, which these days would be pushing the million dollar mark. Keep in mind that venues bid on acts to play much like an auction. If venue A promises $50K but venue B promises $60K, where do you think the artist's agency is going to book? This is why you pay $10 for a beer. 95% of the time the venue hands over every penny of ticket sales to the talent, and it can only make revenue off of the bar sales. Many times venues dip into that revenue to make up difference of a ticket sales shortfall.

Which brings me to my next point: lack of liquor license. Every time alcohol was served at Phoenix Plaza it was under a temporary permit obtained by an outside operator. Without alcohol revenue there is no venue profit.

All these items can potentially be surmounted. However there is one huge, gigantic, monstrous problem that exists that will prevent major acts from ever playing the Phoenix Plaza Amphitheater. For some unknown reason, the architects that redesigned the stage and production areas remembered to install a semi truck loading dock, BUT FORGOT THAT THERE IS NO WAY FOR A TRUCK TO GET TO THE ROOF! That's right, folks. There is only one way a vehicle can get to the roof. Via the original, beat up, notoriously prone to break down, single service elevator. My 2007 Chevy Trailblazer would barely fit end to end in this cantankerous metal cage, let alone a tour bus. So every event, the talent had to park on the outside of the garage, sometimes 50 yards from the elevator if there were several buses, wade through a sea of cat calling, sometimes drunk elderly spectators who came over with their lawn chairs from the low income senior housing next door. Then they had to call the elevator which is manually operated. There is no staircase next to this elevator. Many times the elevator would be in use unloading equipment or beverages and bands would have to wait 20 minutes or more. Once on the roof, they had to walk an additional 100 yards to the stage! It's very difficult to explain this situation to a tour manager when advancing a show. Not only would their people be forced to wait and walk unreasonable distances, but all equipment, gear, and staging had to travel in the same manner. Many times there would be a trail of a dozen or more loaders pushing road cases to the elevator, which had to wait until the act had all its gear on board, while the next act would be frantically buzzing the operator. [[And this was with backline!) This was especially the case with the local bands who always take a back seat to nationals. Band, crew, and equipment safety and security is paramount to a tour, and these items are just not able to be assured given the current layout.

As I said, all of the items above can be addressed but mean nothing unless a method of bringing up tour buses and semi trucks is added if there is to be any hope of booking national, heavy draw talent. It's really a shame too as some of my fondest memories working production were at the Phoenix. Great views of the city, relatively good stage and production facilities, and a truly park like feel in the middle of an urban canyon. Add a ramp, contract long term with an experienced operator, or tear it down.

[gnome]

good post Krawlspace. Not much to add other than to say, "The Phoenix Center: A Bad Idea, Poorly Executed"

[rjlj]

Thank you for your insight Krawlspace.
I saw many great shows there during the 1990's including The Flaming Lips,
Stone Temple Pilots, Butthole Surfers, Moby, Tool, and plenty 89X birthday bashes. At that time, it seemed that the plaza only helped the downtown area with some spin off effect. The layout before the renovation was not
the greatest and they still made it work somehow. They didn't have seats and the surface was all concrete.
I would think a good operator could make it viable again.
Here is a list of some bands that played there, mostly prior to the renovation.

http://www.setlist.fm/venue/phoenix-...-33d624f9.html

[Hypestyles]

what would demolition actually cost?

[Jimaz]

Google Street View of the area shows one of those GM Futureliners. I assume this was during a Woodward Dream Cruise judging by the crowd and the cars.

[Jimaz]

what would demolition actually cost?

Roughly $2 million, according to the Freep article.

[detlump]

I'm not actually for saving a parking structure, but it does seem wasteful in an American sort of way. If this were built in Europe [[a big if I admit) it would probably be re-purposed somehow rather than just scrapped.

For some reason, seeing all that concrete reminds me of the area around Auto World, but that's a different story for a different day.

[DetroitPlanner]

Can't repurpose a parking garage very well. Does not have the right bones or infastructure [[water, major electric to upper floors....).