Rolls Royce Merlin engines built at Packard, 1941

[Lt. Dan Bassett]

Hello DYes,

Someone on here must know this.
In 1940 Packard tooled and learned to build aircraft engines for the Brit war effort. A new wing/production line was added to the plant. Does anyone know the location of that addition to the complex in 1940. 55,000 engines were built there for Brit and U.S. war planes during the war. Any info and links to pix from that time would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[MikeM]

At the north end, next to I-94.

See my post #1209 about halfway down: http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/39227.html

[Packman41]

Hello Lt. Dan:

Take a look at my post #5 in this thread:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...-Line-Question

During WWII Building #22 was used for Merlin/Packard engine production. Once the war was over the space was used as the Styling and Design Department.

Hey, didn't you get a copy of The Packard Cormorant magazine, issue #137 from me? I believe you will see bldg. #22 there.

By the way, that issue is now NO longer available. All back issues are sold and the last one was sent to England 2 weeks ago. I've investigated running the National club re-issue 100 copies, but they said it was not possible. Hope you got yours and save it.

[Packman41]

Maybe these photos will help.

[Whitehouse]

I expect most of those engines ended up in the P51 Mustangs. The engines were compareable to the Spitfire.

Spitfire:
Max Engine power: 2035 hp.
Max Speed: 721 km/h.
Max Climb Rate: 5,200 ft/min.
Wing Span: 11,23 m.
Wing Area: 22,48 m2.
Empty Weight: 2,994 kg.
Max. Weight: 3,856 kg.
Armament: two 20mm cannons and four 7.7mm Machine Guns.

P51 Mustang:
Max Engine power: 1720 hp.
Max Speed: 703 km/h.
Max Climb rate: 3,475 ft/min.
Wing Span: 11,28 m.
Wing Area: 21.83 m2.
Empty Weight: 3,232 kg.
Max. Weight: 5,206 kg.
Armament: Six Browning M2 .50 Caliber Machine Guns.

[56packman]

Those engines DID end up in the P51 Mustangs. Packard produced 55,000 of these engines for the war effort, in addition to thousands of PT boat engines of their own design. Packard took a typical British kluge that was hand-fitted and "a watchmaker's nightmare" and turned it into an absolute precision piece of production machinery, with fully interchangeable components. The Detroit-built Merlin engines gave superior service to the units built at Crewe. The officials from Rolls Royce came to Ford first, didn't like what they saw there for shop practices and equipment [[and people) , they went to Packard and it was much more to their liking. Should have been, Packard was called "the American Rolls Royce. A few short years later "Engine Charlie" Wilson, secretary of Defense saw to it that all of Packard's [[and other independent's) defense contracts were steered to his former employer General Motors, and within 3 years of that Packard was gone. The Eisenhower administration set Curtis-Wright up to acquire Studebaker-Packard and that was the end of what had been the Packard Motor Car Company.

[19162 StLouis]

I worked for a man who was a tool and die maker at Packard.
They received a Rolls Engine, and made a copy, converting everything over from metric to U.S. dimensions. I'm not sure if this meant taking, e.g., 40 mm and switching to 1.6 in, or to 1 an d5/8.....I suppose it was done so that suppliers would not have to retool.
Any comments on this aspect?

ANyway, this prototype was built not at Packard, but at the City Airport. He would stay at the airport all week, and his wife brought food to the security gate. She had no idea what he was up to. He'd work very long hours, and could not even call home. They worked very long hours, and I think got one day off a week. I suppose spending nights at the airport meant less down time commuting, and also minimized risk of casually giving away secrets at the corner pub. It might also have minimized risk of the workers picking up the flu or something.

Any comments on this aspect?

When the prototype was done, they put it in a P 51, and watched it take off. He was excited to tell me that the plane assumed a 45 degree angle right away, and zoomed off successfully.

I am curious if the fact that the prototype engine was built off site is not widely known, not written up somewhere, but
His wife said that after several months of this secret work, he was visibly aged. His name was Grover Moehr. Some of you might remember his small nursery on 15 mile Rd. in Fraser.

[Lt. Dan Bassett]

this photo, what is the source? would like to get permission to publish it.

[Packman41]

this photo, what is the source? would like to get permission to publish it.

The photo of the building taken at street level has a copyright mark of Wayne State University – Virtual Motor City Collection. You can see it here:
http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...viewid=77373_6

They have contact information on that page.

In a PM to me you asked if the aircraft assembly line ran south from Harper, along concord to East Grand Boulevard. Technically, the engine assembly occurred in the portion of the building at the corner of Harper and Concord. However, aircraft engine machining occurred in nearly ALL of the building, including the buildings south of East Grand Boulevard.

The only other space on the first floor not used for the Merlin/Packard engine was devoted to the manufacture of marine engines – those used in PT boats, such as John Kennedy’s PT-109.

Hope this helps.

[Lt. Dan Bassett]

The photo of the building taken at street level has a copyright mark of Wayne State University – Virtual Motor City Collection. You can see it here:
http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/imag...viewid=77373_6

They have contact information on that page.

In a PM to me you asked if the aircraft assembly line ran south from Harper, along concord to East Grand Boulevard. Technically, the engine assembly occurred in the portion of the building at the corner of Harper and Concord. However, aircraft engine machining occurred in nearly ALL of the building, including the buildings south of East Grand Boulevard.
The only other space on the first floor not used for the Merlin/Packard engine was devoted to the manufacture of marine engines – those used in PT boats, such as John Kennedy’s PT-109.

Hope this helps.

yep. thanks much. ck the Think section of The Detroit News on Thursday [[tomorrow).

[p69rrh51]

The Rolls-Royce V-1650 Merlin engine. Possibly the most important piston aircraft engine of the second world war for the allies. Ford and GM both passed on manufacturing the very complicated powerplant. Only Packard would tackle the project. Eventually making 2,000 changes to the design to simplify the process of producing the engine. Almost all of the changes were also adopted by Rolls-Royce for their production lines. Packard was so adept they were making US and UK spec engines on the same line. After the war the engine gained more fame powering unlimited hydroplanes. Even to this day a quarter century after their use was mostly disontinued piston engined hydroplanes are still far more popular than their faster turbine powered comtemporaries.

[p69rrh51]

Possibly in awe since his company was not capable of building the Merlin, Edsel inspecting the line circa 1941.

[p69rrh51]

Jimmy Doolittle inspecting the Merlin line circa 1941.

[luckycar]

I think these Merlins were also used on Canadian built Lancaster bombers and Mosquitos.Also some late versions of the P-40 Warhawk/Kittyhawk used Merlins from Packard.

[p69rrh51]

I think these Merlins were also used on Canadian built Lancaster bombers and Mosquitos.Also some late versions of the P-40 Warhawk/Kittyhawk used Merlins from Packard.

Yes they were.

[Packman41]

Hello Lt. Dan:

I read your commentary in today’s Detroit News and I like your enthusiasm about Packard. In fact, my mother worked at Packard during the war inspecting parts that went into the aircraft engines. Two of her best friends worked there too [[still living) and I am proud to call them my “aunts.”

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

However, there is one, glaring factual error in your commentary. You said, “Macauley and his chief engineer, Jesse Vincent, had never made aircraft engines in their lives.” That statement could not be farther from the truth.

Jesse Vincent co-designed the “Liberty Engine” in 1917 used in aircraft during World War I. It was a modular design so that ANY supplier could produce parts for it and easily repaired in the field. The US needed so many engines that besides Packard they were also made Lincoln, Ford, Cadillac, Buick and Marmon. That V-12 engine, from concept to creation took a total of about 90 days. That would be difficult to do even today.

Packard also designed and built a diesel, radial engine called the DR-980. About 100 engines were produced and in 1931, Water Lees and Fred Brossy set a record for time aloft or 84 hours and 32 minutes without refueling. This record was not broken until 55 years later by Burt Rutan in his Voyager aircraft. You can see a photo of Water Lees – it is #16 of 50 in the photo section of the Detroit News commentary.

Michigan’s first commercial airport, Packard Field, opened at Gratiot Avenue and Frazho Road in 1919. A photo is attached. In 1927 Packard opened up the Proving Grounds in Utica [[Shelby Twp), MI that included a landing strip and a test hanger. The hanger was moved from the infield of the test track and can still be seen today.

So, yes – Packard and Jesse Vincent [[an avid pilot - photo of him in his Stinson Detroiter at the PPG is also attached) were HIGHLY experienced at aircraft engine design and manufacture prior to taking on the Merlin engine in World War II.

[noggin]

Great commentary from the Detroit News http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz20QHJv31K

[douglasm]

Interesting and informative thread.

Would these Packard Merlins be the same "Packard" engines that Freddie Leyland tried to stuff into the U-100 about 25 years ago?

[Packman41]

Interesting and informative thread.

Would these Packard Merlins be the same "Packard" engines that Freddie Leyland tried to stuff into the U-100 about 25 years ago?

Yes, according to this website:
http://thunderthebridge.blogspot.com...n-powered.html

U-100 Miss Rock Fred Leland campaigned with a number of hulls throughout the 1980’s and early 1990’s. These hulls raced under a variety of names and numbers but always used piston power, usually a Packard Rolls Royce Merlin. Leland’s boats were usually campaigned on the West Coast, but never met with much success in those early years. In 1992 the team built its first turbine powered hydroplane that it raced nationally, marking a vast improvement for the program that culminated in the 1996 championship.

[Lt. Dan Bassett]

Hello Lt. Dan:

I read your commentary in today’s Detroit News and I like your enthusiasm about Packard. In fact, my mother worked at Packard during the war inspecting parts that went into the aircraft engines. Two of her best friends worked there too [[still living) and I am proud to call them my “aunts.”

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120712/OPINION01/207120330/Commentary-Save-Packard-Plant?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

However, there is one, glaring factual error in your commentary. You said, “Macauley and his chief engineer, Jesse Vincent, had never made aircraft engines in their lives.” That statement could not be farther from the truth.

Jesse Vincent co-designed the “Liberty Engine” in 1917 used in aircraft during World War I. It was a modular design so that ANY supplier could produce parts for it and easily repaired in the field. The US needed so many engines that besides Packard they were also made Lincoln, Ford, Cadillac, Buick and Marmon. That V-12 engine, from concept to creation took a total of about 90 days. That would be difficult to do even today.

Packard also designed and built a diesel, radial engine called the DR-980. About 100 engines were produced and in 1931, Water Lees and Fred Brossy set a record for time aloft or 84 hours and 32 minutes without refueling. This record was not broken until 55 years later by Burt Rutan in his Voyager aircraft. You can see a photo of Water Lees – it is #16 of 50 in the photo section of the Detroit News commentary.

Michigan’s first commercial airport, Packard Field, opened at Gratiot Avenue and Frazho Road in 1919. A photo is attached. In 1927 Packard opened up the Proving Grounds in Utica [[Shelby Twp), MI that included a landing strip and a test hanger. The hanger was moved from the infield of the test track and can still be seen today.

So, yes – Packard and Jesse Vincent [[an avid pilot - photo of him in his Stinson Detroiter at the PPG is also attached) were HIGHLY experienced at aircraft engine design and manufacture prior to taking on the Merlin engine in World War II.

eh, not my commentary. essay was written by historian Arthur Herman [[my job was to design the display in the paper). I suppose you should bend Mr. Herman's ear about the facts. Your enthusiasm for the subject helped put together a meaningful display. Thanks.

[douglasm]

Packman.....
.....the Packard engines Fred tried were ex-PT boat engines. Same engines as the Merlins?

BTW, it's worth noting that Leland, the grand old man of hydroplane racing, died in late May.

[Packman41]

Packman.....
.....the Packard engines Fred tried were ex-PT boat engines. Same engines as the Merlins?

All I know is the website I found said he was using a Packard/Merlin engine. In my personal opinion the PT engine is VERY different and probably not suitable for hydroplane racing - it does not hit the revs a Merlin does.

[douglasm]

It was aparently a common misconception that the Packard PT boat engine was a Merlin built under license. I found a very interesting website about them. This was the engine that Leland tried at one time in one of his hulls. Details:
http://www.pt-boat.com/packard/packard.html

Fred also used Packard Merlins in his old U-100 and the U-99.9

[p69rrh51]

The Packard Marine Engines powering Miss America X. Sorry for the blurry image.

[p69rrh51]

The plaque at Eastgate Center marking the Liberty Engine and Packard Field.