Anyone notice a change in WDIV's broadcast volume?

**trotwood** · July-04-12, 04:40 PM

When watching my set I usually keep the volume set around 10 and heard all stations without any problem[[well WKBD used to be a bit low but now is louder than other stations).However I've recently noticed WDIV's volume seems to be lower than the other stations. When I want to watch anything on the station[[other than commercials)I have to turn the volume up to around 16ish. At first I thought there was a problem with my 6 month old set. I bought another tv in the last few days&the same thing's happening with DIV's volume. I'd say it was my ears but rule those out for a couple of reasons[[recently had hearing test&all's good there). I'd like to blame the problem on the AC but I hear all other stations just fine with the system running so that's out.
Anyone else notice a difference in WDIV's volume?
P.S. If this is posted in the wrong section I apologize.

**detroittrader** · July-04-12, 05:07 PM

Well...you adjust the volume on the locals, get it just right, and then the Carl Collins III commercial comes on with the funk and blows your speakers!

**trotwood** · July-04-12, 05:17 PM

That's funny!!

Thanks for the laugh.

**Jimaz** · July-04-12, 05:42 PM

Gannon would be the expert on this problem but I'm pretty sure it's not your fault.

From where does your signal come? Comcast? Satellite?

I can't detect much volume loss on my Comcast channel 4 but I've noticed this problem elsewhere on other channels. You'd think the industry would do whatever quality control is necessary to prevent the customer ever noticing such a problem.

Thank Eugene J. Polley for the remote control, eh?

**Lowell** · July-04-12, 06:06 PM

Would this be a failure on the cable provider's end [assuming you have cable or equivalent] to deliver equalized audio? Gannon? Anybody?

**mcsdetroitfriend** · July-04-12, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Would this be a failure on the cable provider's end [assuming you have cable or equivalent] to deliver equalized audio? Gannon? Anybody?

The FCC passed laws recently about having a maximum output and most cable and broadcast channels have a limiter on their output. Also if you have a cable box in your options there's an option for an audio compressor which will allow you to equalize your televisions output

**MikeM** · July-04-12, 06:56 PM

I've heard that the technique is to raise the lower end of modulation range, causing the broadcast to sound louder even though the upper end is within limits.

**Gannon** · July-04-12, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by MikeM

I've heard that the technique is to raise the lower end of modulation range, causing the broadcast to sound louder even though the upper end is within limits.

Done with compressors and limiters, like in radio. It squeezes the last bit of life out of music, but in many cases with TV it simply smoothes out the variation in volume.

If, as MCSf says there was some recent ruling...it is very likely the station simply had a policy change, and the engineers are following it religiously. While the FCC is watching.

But it makes a HUGE difference whether this is a direct over-the-air broadcast, or something REbroadcast through cable or satellite. I haven't noticed any issues with OTA, the only way I'll watch television...since cable and satellite screw up the sound and picture, with all they have to do to fit 500-channels-with-nothing-on into their particular pipeline.

When Comcast sets up a new service, or delivers a new box, they always set the internal compression to the highest...even further flattening out the dynamic range of music and sound effects. They also NEVER set the box for proper surround sound...I think it is called Matrix, of the three choices.

For my clients with serious surround sound systems, all of that gets set to optimum. If their non-technical significant others complain about the volume of explosions or other transient noises, I teach them how to set it for night viewing.

That, as far as I'm concerned, is the only decent use of compression...marriage maintenance! Your DVD and BluRay players have a similar dynamic range scheme, but as with many things in the maniacal hifi industry...there are no common names for these features.

Dynamic Range Reduction, Nighttime Sound, Compression...they all do a similar thing, squish the difference between loud and soft, so it isn't as much of a shock to those who are not interested in the maximum the Hollywood sound engineers spend a lifetime perfecting.

Cheers,
John

**rb336** · July-04-12, 10:49 PM

of course, those used to listening to music in the ultra-compressed ipod formats probably wouldn't know any better. had a coworker - a drummer at that - who claims there IS no difference between sound formats

**Gannon** · July-04-12, 10:57 PM

LOL, this is the guy who is always asking you to repeat yourself, right?

Have him come visit me, it would take me ten minutes to prove it to him, IF his ears are working!

Every MP3 listener I've ever played the difference to understands...and they're using the least compression with MP3 or better now.

Cheers!

**mcsdetroitfriend** · July-05-12, 06:14 AM

http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/loud-commercials/
Looks like it hasn't been put into effect just yet

Originally Posted by Gannon

Done with compressors and limiters, like in radio. It squeezes the last bit of life out of music, but in many cases with TV it simply smoothes out the variation in volume.

If, as MCSf says there was some recent ruling...it is very likely the station simply had a policy change, and the engineers are following it religiously. While the FCC is watching.

But it makes a HUGE difference whether this is a direct over-the-air broadcast, or something REbroadcast through cable or satellite. I haven't noticed any issues with OTA, the only way I'll watch television...since cable and satellite screw up the sound and picture, with all they have to do to fit 500-channels-with-nothing-on into their particular pipeline.

When Comcast sets up a new service, or delivers a new box, they always set the internal compression to the highest...even further flattening out the dynamic range of music and sound effects. They also NEVER set the box for proper surround sound...I think it is called Matrix, of the three choices.

For my clients with serious surround sound systems, all of that gets set to optimum. If their non-technical significant others complain about the volume of explosions or other transient noises, I teach them how to set it for night viewing.

That, as far as I'm concerned, is the only decent use of compression...marriage maintenance! Your DVD and BluRay players have a similar dynamic range scheme, but as with many things in the maniacal hifi industry...there are no common names for these features.

Dynamic Range Reduction, Nighttime Sound, Compression...they all do a similar thing, squish the difference between loud and soft, so it isn't as much of a shock to those who are not interested in the maximum the Hollywood sound engineers spend a lifetime perfecting.

Cheers,
John

**trotwood** · July-05-12, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Gannon would be the expert on this problem but I'm pretty sure it's not your fault.

From where does your signal come? Comcast? Satellite?

I can't detect much volume loss on my Comcast channel 4 but I've noticed this problem elsewhere on other channels. You'd think the industry would do whatever quality control is necessary to prevent the customer ever noticing such a problem.

Thank Eugene J. Polley for the remote control, eh?

Thank you very much for responding. I'm using Comcast but so far I've haven't had a problem[[other than channel 50)with station volume until recently. Maybe Comcast is the source of the problem but I'll not dare call them&try to get a reasonable explanation lol.
At least I can take comfort knowing my ears&sets aren't duds lol. I appreciate you replying. Thanks also to Gannon&Lowell.

**Gannon** · July-05-12, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by trotwood

Thank you very much for responding. I'm using Comcast but so far I've haven't had a problem[[other than channel 50)with station volume until recently. Maybe Comcast is the source of the problem but I'll not dare call them&try to get a reasonable explanation lol.
At least I can take comfort knowing my ears&sets aren't duds lol. I appreciate you replying. Thanks also to Gannon&Lowell.

Check the settings in your box, then. If it has a brand name on it, like Motorola, I should be able to talk you through it.

Sometimes, they'll do a firmware update overnight and settings in the setup menu get switched to their default.

You want to find the "Audio:" or "Sound:" portion of the setup menu, which you can get to by pressing the Menu button twice, or moving the cursor over to that last icon.

Make sure the dynamic range setting is toggled to the appropriate one...wish I could remember what they call it. I stopped memorizing all the silly-ass terms long ago...but can identify the right one if you give me the choices. It 'should' be obvious, but unfortunately usually only for the engineers...they speak a slightly different language than the marketeers, but get to create the menu items.

Cheers!
John

Oh, and thanks MCSfriend...you rock. That was some interesting reading, it sounds like they are dictating to the OTA broadcasts as well as the cable/satellite providers, unlike with the initial HD specs.

**trotwood** · July-05-12, 12:33 PM

Hi again Gannon.I've Motorola box from Comcast. I went audio setup. The only choices I see default audio track[[set to English),descriptive video service[[set to on),audio output[[set to advanced),compression[[set to heavy),stereo output[[set to stereo),and optimal stereo[[gives option of "select to optimize"). Not sure if I should be able to adjust that setting or not but I can't lol.
I appreciate you taking time out to try&assist.

**Gannon** · July-05-12, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by trotwood

Hi again Gannon.I've Motorola box from Comcast. I went audio setup. The only choices I see default audio track[[set to English),descriptive video service[[set to on),audio output[[set to advanced),compression[[set to heavy),stereo output[[set to stereo),and optimal stereo[[gives option of "select to optimize"). Not sure if I should be able to adjust that setting or not but I can't lol.
I appreciate you taking time out to try&assist.

It is that 'compression' setting...and 'heavy' should provide the LEAST difference between commercials and regular content, but it is not likely to address channel-to-channel differences.

That one is a for the Comcast engineers. A phone call to log the issue may indeed solve the problem, since it is a local broadcast it is more likely to get overlooked by their maintenance folks.

For some reason, the Shopping Channel consistently has the best picture quality on EVERY cable and satellite system I've ever worked on in residences...everywhere in the country! I suspect some extra attention due the revenue stream they enjoy...so I know the rebroadcasters can get 'em ALL exactly right with the proper feedback and monitoring. [[at least until their pipeline bandwidth limits are met, many of the problems are due the digital compression and multiplexing they need to do to squeeze all the channels into their medium)

There is a difference between the two...they have to intiate the 'monitoring' and put energy into that all the time...with little actual results other than technician boredom and time-consumption...while 'feedback' is active response to consumer complaints, much more efficient. Without your complaint, they might not look at these performance parameters for a while.

I'm guessing the excellent engineers at Channel 4 have complied ahead of the FCC's deadline, and Comcast simply hasn't caught up with their audio level and compression threshold adjustments.

Do so take a moment to give Comcast a bit o' feedback...even if it is through e-mail to their website or help line.

Cheers,
John

**trotwood** · July-05-12, 02:20 PM

Gannon don't get me started about the shopping channels lol. I don't mind them,heck I've done a bit of shopping on each of them over the years but I can't stand the "Press Ok/SELECT to shop" that pops up each&every time I tune to HSN. If that weren't bad enough a few weeks ago it would pop up&I'd not be able to tune to another station using my Comcast remote. The exit function seemed to freeze.I'd have to actually turn the set off then on again before I could use the remote. I called Comcast and[[naturally)they knew nothing about it. Same when I called HSN. Thank goodness that didn't last long.
I'll email Comcast regarding the volume issue I'm having on DIV.I won't dare call. Although Comcast customer service has improved,imo,greatly over the last couple of years they've still got room for improvement.
Thanks again for everything Gannon.You've been a god send to me today.
Cheers

**Scottathew** · July-05-12, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by detroittrader

Carl Collins III

He is good.

**JBMcB** · July-05-12, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

For some reason, the Shopping Channel consistently has the best picture quality on EVERY cable and satellite system I've ever worked on in residences...everywhere in the country! I suspect some extra attention due the revenue stream they enjoy...so I know the rebroadcasters can get 'em ALL exactly right with the proper feedback and monitoring.

Shopping channels [[and talking-head news channels) usually look pretty good because there isn't much moving around, which the video codecs can smash down pretty well [[non-moving parts of the image don't have to be updated nearly as often) When more image is moving, there is more data the codec needs to cram into the same bandwidth, and you loose quality. Even with very limited bandwidth, a video of a couple of people sitting on couch talking can look pretty good.

This is one of the reasons there is a lot of consternation about the sports channels. They require a ton of bandwidth because the viewers demand that they look good, and there's usually a lot movement. They also make a lot of money, and cost the cable channels a lot of money in terms of channel cost and bandwidth, which compounds the problem.

**rutlev** · July-05-12, 06:53 PM

Thank you for mentioning the volume change on WDIV, I switch channels all the time during the news programs and was thinking it was me. I also have Comcast. Unfortunately it just makes Charlie Langton and LeDuff sound so much more irritating.

**Gannon** · July-06-12, 07:38 AM

I listened closely last night to the OTA broadcasts from everyone, and didn't hear any major troubles...so this must be Comcast's issue.

As for the Shopping Channel, my experiences professionally calibrating video displays and converging extremely high-end projectors began before the advent of digital broadcasts, so I don't fully accept the over-worked codec explanation. It is also not only interlace artifacting.

I believe it has more to do with it being a live, direct-to-broadcast-chain event [[skipping video recording and production distortions and truncations)...and some extra attention at the delivery end. I think the lack of vertical motion helps avoid interlace artifacts and moire...and nowadays the compression 'stress' makes a difference...but that is not all of the story.

Today, I use live sports as the reference whenever available...luckily most team uniforms make great temporary test patterns. It is pretty easy to spot the better camera operators...but these broadcasts usually show the best performance of HD. Those 10-second delay units must not dent the quality...and the rest of the chain must get more attention due the revenue stream.

Cheers!

**trotwood** · July-06-12, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by rutlev

Thank you for mentioning the volume change on WDIV, I switch channels all the time during the news programs and was thinking it was me. I also have Comcast. Unfortunately it just makes Charlie Langton and LeDuff sound so much more irritating.

You're experiencing WDIV having a lower volume as well. If you are then that does indeed make me feel better as I too was thinking it was just me. I spent about 20mins or so on with Comcast live chat yesterday. While I received very good customer support they weren't able to assist me[[no surprise there lol).
I agree with you about Langton. While I'm sure Charlie Langton is a nice enough man he's a bit too animated for my taste. I can't take more than a few seconds of his yelling before I'm reaching for the remote.
Thanks for weighing in rutely.