Mass-transit plan may be delayed b/c of Detroit

[leland_palmer]

Crain's Detroit Business
Bill Shea

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...UB01/306219932

A June 30 deadline for a vote on the next step for a regional mass transit plan may pass because Detroit hasn't appointed anyone to negotiate for the city with the project's organizers.

The Big 4 set a June 30 deadline for Hertel to research and recommend a governance plan for the transit system. That includes identifying how other transit systems are run and how their oversight boards are appointed or elected, how many members those boards have and what powers they retain.

The research is done and Hertel has two options he plans to recommend, but there must be consensus on the recommendations prior to a vote by the Big 4, he said. No vote will be scheduled until all four entities agree.

Hertel said he's has been talking with Charlie Beckham, Detroit Mayor Dave Bing's chief administrative officer, about getting someone in place to negotiate, but nothing's happened.

It was understood going into the process that it would take some time for Detroit to have a negotiator in place because of the city's two elections in the wake of Kwame Kilpatrick's resignation as mayor, Hertel said, but it's been nearly two months since Bing was elected.

“We have not been able to talk to Detroit sooner because of the election,� Hertel said. “I know there are a lot of things they've got on their plate, but that person still has not been identified. I am getting concerned about it. Things have been progressing with the three counties.�

[ASR89]

"A June 30 deadline for a vote on the next step for a regional mass transit plan may pass because Detroit hasn't appointed anyone to negotiate for the city with the project's organizers."
FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU--!!

On the bright side, it's good to hear some news about this. I remember back around January when Hertel mentioned that he wanted to do research about existing mass transit authorities around the country. However, there hasn't been any updates since then. I'm glad to hear that his research is done and has proposals ready.

[DetroitDad]

Oh for Christ's sake Mayor Bing!

[jams]

Hey, discussing strip clubs is far more interesting than infrastructure.

[gumby]

Is anyone surprised?

[jtf1972]

Bing is on the ball.

[dcmorrison12]

There are some things you need to understand. Most importantly is the fact that John Hertel has done as much as he can to undercut DDOT's public light rail plan. He's been a wrench in the gears for the past two years.

Secondly, because of him and the private light rail group [[M1 Rail), DDOT's deadline to send in their application for grant money has been put back 7 months - they originally wanted it in by January. They are still in talks and the new deadline is July, so hopefully everything will be worked out.

As for Detroit not appointed a person to the board, I can understand - We've been in an interesting situation, unprecedented really, so to take 2 months to decide on a member doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

[professorscott]

I'm hoping Mr. Shea comes in and comment's on DCMorrison's latest post.

How can M1 Rail possibly delay DDOT's application for a grant? Why does DDOT have to pay any attention whatever to what M1 Rail is doing? DDOT is perfectly able to proceed as though M1 Rail doesn't exist, but they don't. Why don't they?

Again, hopefully Mr. Shea can shed light into this corner.

Incidentally, I saw another headline in Crain's online which I think might be about this, or something similar: "Staying on track: Rail projects work to coordinate plans, maximize use of matching funds". I haven't bought my copy yet - would anyone care to give a Reader's Digest synopsis of what the article is about? Please don't reprint it here; it's not a free article. If nobody has time, I might do so myself after lunch when I've had a chance to read it in print.

[dcmorrison12]

I'm hoping Mr. Shea comes in and comment's on DCMorrison's latest post.

How can M1 Rail possibly delay DDOT's application for a grant? Why does DDOT have to pay any attention whatever to what M1 Rail is doing? DDOT is perfectly able to proceed as though M1 Rail doesn't exist, but they don't. Why don't they?

Again, hopefully Mr. Shea can shed light into this corner.

Incidentally, I saw another headline in Crain's online which I think might be about this, or something similar: "Staying on track: Rail projects work to coordinate plans, maximize use of matching funds". I haven't bought my copy yet - would anyone care to give a Reader's Digest synopsis of what the article is about? Please don't reprint it here; it's not a free article. If nobody has time, I might do so myself after lunch when I've had a chance to read it in print.

You're in luck, I can answer the question for you!

It's a silly question to ask "Why does DDOT have to pay any attention whatever to what M1 Rail is doing" - They are proposing to build a train line on the same roadway/route as DDOT's plan.

The reason the Private side has delayed DDOT's process is because they have been in talks for a long while now, trying to work out all of the kinks in order to combine the plans [[which just makes sense). The private side has been very non-committal, not returning calls, making poor attempts to stay in contact and to plan meetings. Finally, the talks are now very serious and they are nearing the point in time where the Private side is to sign a letter of intent - stating they are joining "forces" with DDOT to combine the two plans. The issue is that DDOT, by federal guidelines in order to apply for the New Starts grant, has to follow very strict and thorough guidelines/steps. In order to combines the plans [[and ultimately money sources), the private side must commit to following these exceedingly high standards for their project too. This is what the Private side is dragging their feet about.

The plan right now is that DDOT and M1 Rail projects will [[hopefully) combine, the 150 million or so dollars from M1 Rail will combine with DDOT's 50 million coming from Stimulus money. This will then become the matching funds which will help qualify the project for New Starts funds [[which is 50-60 % of the project cost).

This ends up being a win-win-win.

- DDOT has the funding to build the entire 9.5 mile Rail line
- M1 Rail now has 6 more miles of rail, connecting their downtown circulator with a commuter train - allowing for a regional mass transit system.
- And the region now has the ability to construct a regional mass transit system [[which would not have been possible if DDOT did not have the 150 million, and the M1 Rail was all that was built)

I hope this answers the question?

[BShea]

Do you seriously think DDOT is just going to be handed New Starts money, even with M1 Rail on board?

If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

The New Starts process is fiercely competitive, with NY City sometimes getting as much of 40% of all the grant money.

There are zero guarantees of ever getting New Starts money, and projects often have to apply several times. Detroit will be starting off at zero.

It could be years, decades or never before that money comes. So, it's understandable why a private venture committing its own money might be hesitant to completely get on board with something that may never happen. Logic says they need to make sure their project will happen, and not get anchored to something that is dependent on the whims of bureaucrats in Washington. That was the point of M1 Rail in the first place - the private sector doing what the government cannot, especially a nearly bankrupt city gripped by scandal and rolls of political red tape by the case.

Perhaps Michigan's delegation in Congress has the sway to get DTOG priority consideration for New Starts money. Maybe. And if we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.

And based on what I'm reading today, the city is nearly out of cash. DTOG happens ONLY because M1 Rail exists, and because of stimulus money. In other words, the city is putting up exactly as many local dollars as it has unicorns - zero. Questions remains about M1 Rail, which I've been reporting on, but a lot more existential questions are out there about DTOG. I have questions about whether DTOG exists anywhere but on paper and in imaginations. It's easy to create projects with other people's money, but a helluva lot harder to make them a reality.

[Danny]

Our Detroit leaders are still talking and slothing. Most of them are too corrupt! Detroit need NEW LEADERSHIP not leftovers in order to have a new mass transit plan to go forward.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

For Neda Soltani

[dcmorrison12]

I am optimistic that Detroit will get the New Starts program - especially since the New Starts program is being infused with more money from the stimulus funds. This will make it easier for cities to qualify for money, since there's more to go around.

Plus, this project, in my opinion, stands out from the rest and can garner more interest. It was voted one of most exciting rail projects in one of the train magazines [[forgot the title).

Either way, the M1 Rail has a higher level of failure it it's built on it's own. It has no way to becoming a regional/commuter system - there's no way it can effectively stretch out into the suburbs. Frankly, both projects need one another - and the Private project has taken next to zero public input - which makes me pull even harder for the DDOT plan since they have my best interest in their concerns.

[rb336]

nothing at all for MI in the New Starts FY 2010:

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/Table_1_for_Web.xls

[Cooper]

Questions remains about M1 Rail, which I've been reporting on, but a lot more existential questions are out there about DTOG. I have questions about whether DTOG exists anywhere but on paper and in imaginations. It's easy to create projects with other people's money, but a helluva lot harder to make them a reality.

I've heard doubts about DTOGS viability from someone in the know, but no good explanation as to why so many are treating it as dead on arrival. Yes, mass transit is expensive and New Starts money is competitive, but you have to apply to have a chance, no?

Even if DTOGS doesn't ultimately succeed, the M1 project should still be bending over backward to ensure that the line can be easily linked to the next proposal with a chance. The light rail will only be as strong as the connections it makes. Look at the People Mover to see what an isolated transit system is worth. M1 is a huge step up from that, but if we're not committed as a region to expanding it, it will never fulfill its potential.

[scuola]

There are some things you need to understand. Most importantly is the fact that John Hertel has done as much as he can to undercut DDOT's public light rail plan. He's been a wrench in the gears for the past two years.

Secondly, because of him and the private light rail group [[M1 Rail), DDOT's deadline to send in their application for grant money has been put back 7 months - they originally wanted it in by January. They are still in talks and the new deadline is July, so hopefully everything will be worked out.

As for Detroit not appointed a person to the board, I can understand - We've been in an interesting situation, unprecedented really, so to take 2 months to decide on a member doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

Really? Because it seems to me it's Hertel's group and not DDOT that is ready to start construction this year. Yet M1 is getting in DDOT's way? Further, DDOT has visions of sugar plums now that the use of private M1 money as a federal match has been dangled in front of them. They'll do whatever it takes to use that money even if it means altering their schedule because they know without that money their project isn't happening anytime soon. But even with the potential of using that private money to get a federal grant, DDOT was still campaigning for their "plan" even as they were supposedly in discussions about the M1 plan [[which is the only plan that is anywhere close to being funded.)

Essentially, for me, this is the perfect example of government bureaucracy and wasted tax dollars pitted against efficient private enterprise and having your money go to a private company [[i.e., Karmanos, Illitch, Penske, Gilbert) where it is spent on something people actually will use that connects actual destinations rather than empty stops to Highland Park, McNichols, and the concrete wasteland known as 8 mile and Woodward. We either pay the government a lot of our tax $ for a little service, or we pay private enterprise a little fee for a lot of service.

[dcmorrison12]

I'm not sure what the disdain for the DDOT project is, it truly is - factually - the better, more in depth project which has taken into account extensive public input.
I've had in-depth conversations with the DDOT project manager for the past two years and I've by done my own research [[I'm the transportation committee head for SEAL at WSU and I'm on the Faculty/administration run Environmental Initiatives Committee - Transportation Sub Committee at WSU). I've dug into these two project extensively over the past two years. The DDOT plan, when built, will provide for the strongest backbone for regional mass transit.

I'm assuring you that Southeastern Michigan will struggle to build a regional transit system if the M1 Rail is all that is built. It will not be able to effectively connect to the suburbs - no doubt. It's a downtown circulator - not to mention there has be next to NO public input taken into account - which is one of the most crucial aspects that must be taken into consideration. This is the people's mass transit line

Although I'll enjoy having light rail in my neighborhood of Midtown, I'd love to be able to take the train to the suburbs as well. We NEED the DDOT project to succeed or SE Michigan will have another 30 years of failed projects... and two downtown circulators.

[Russix]

Really? Because it seems to me it's Hertel's group and not DDOT that is ready to start construction this year. Yet M1 is getting in DDOT's way? Further, DDOT has visions of sugar plums now that the use of private M1 money as a federal match has been dangled in front of them. They'll do whatever it takes to use that money even if it means altering their schedule because they know without that money their project isn't happening anytime soon. But even with the potential of using that private money to get a federal grant, DDOT was still campaigning for their "plan" even as they were supposedly in discussions about the M1 plan [[which is the only plan that is anywhere close to being funded.)

Essentially, for me, this is the perfect example of government bureaucracy and wasted tax dollars pitted against efficient private enterprise and having your money go to a private company [[i.e., Karmanos, Illitch, Penske, Gilbert) where it is spent on something people actually will use that connects actual destinations rather than empty stops to Highland Park, McNichols, and the concrete wasteland known as 8 mile and Woodward. We either pay the government a lot of our tax $ for a little service, or we pay private enterprise a little fee for a lot of service.

Or we pay heavily for bad planning for along time. We are not paying private enterprise anything to build this “gift�. We are giving them the design authority over a public transportation system. We will however be paying to operate it, which since it’s not designed as a regional leg will not be much since it will never expand. Using your wasteland theory you should pretty much include the rest of the suburbs with maybe the exception of Royal Oak and Birmingham, which incidentally were long-range targets for DTOGS to connect with. Hertel’s wants 10 Billion over 20 or 30 years to build regional transit, but can’t even pull it together to correctly build the first leg of a regional transit line and sold out completely.

[Hypestyles]

I attended a TRU public meeting in january.. I wonder why Hertel was so sour on heavy rail or elevated systems, just exclusively focusing on the next-gen buses/street cars and street-level rail lines..

[professorscott]

I can't speak for Mr. Hertel, but planners in general in Detroit do not seriously consider subway or elevated rail lines because of the cost. It will be expensive and difficult enough just to do what the current regional plan calls for, in terms of various levels of express type bus service and some small amount of light rail.

You also may note that early in the DTOG study, when all modes were under consideration, subway and elevated were very quickly eliminated. So it's not just Mr. Hertel's office reaching this conclusion; others have as well.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's really an issue of cost versus population density along the transit corridors. A 2-track subway line can cost in excess of $150 million per mile and carry 60,000 passengers per hour. Is Detroit likely to generate that level of ridership?

I think light rail can carry something like 17,500 passengers per hour per track, which is still a very healthy number, especially considering total transit system ridership between DDOT and SMART is somewhere around 200,000 per day.