Troy/Birmngham Transit Center: A new era for Oakland County and Detroit?

**tangerine** · June-21-09, 04:30 PM

My, gosh, I am really starting to think we are going to get mass transit. Birmingham and Troy are deep into a multi-year collaboration on a transit center that they hope will be part of region wide mass transit.

Check out this website http://www.tcaup.umich.edu/charrette/. When I read this, I had to kind of pinch myself to see if I was dreaming. The ideas around this are incredibly progressive at least for suburban Detroit. Itâ€™s really exciting.

Keep in mind: this is not some wild-eyed dream. This program is sponsored by municipal governments of Birmingham and Troy. If you had said in 1995 that Birmingham and Troy were going to [[a) collaborate; and/or [[b) work on developing mass transit, you'd have been carted off to a mental hospital.

These two cities held a second Charrette on this last week, which I attended. It seems very real. There are already some very good urban developments around this proposed station â€“ the so-called Rail District in Birmingham â€“ including new row houses and adaptive reuse of old industrial buildings. Here are a few pictures from the 2008 Charrette materials, available on the above-referenced website.

Attachment 1949

Attachment 1946

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What I find very refreshing is the full embrace of not just urbanism and transit but a new sense of regionalism. The planners at the meeting told me there was broad-based public support for the transit center. With the possible exception of Bloomfield Hills, it would seem to me at this point that every municipality between Pontiac and Detroit is now on board with mass transit along Woodward.

DetroitDad · June-21-09, 04:55 PM

Great News!

It looks like the suburbs are finally starting to see the writings on the wall. The unsustainable cannot be sustained, and our only chance is through regionalism.

**artds** · June-21-09, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

Great News!

It looks like the suburbs are finally starting to see the writings on the wall. The unsustainable cannot be sustained, and our only chance is through regionalism.

Indeed. Now if only we could get the city of Detroit to come around and stop fighting the suburbs on every little thing [[see, e.g., Cobo), we may actually have a productive, vibrant region within the next couple of decades.

Downtown diva · June-21-09, 06:37 PM

why do the suburbs get everything. that money should be diverted to us.....none of these suburbs mean a thing without detroit.....without us, they would be nothing

**Detroit Stylin** · June-21-09, 06:42 PM

Diva did u ever get a pm from me?

crawford · June-21-09, 07:04 PM

It's cool to see attention given to transit, but the location is a head-scratcher. Why not do this along Woodward?

This site is just some sprawling, unwalkable mess. Nobody is going to live in Troy and get around by bus. Put it in downtown Birmingham, where you can actually walk around and where people may consider transit.

And the Amtrak station is not a reason to put it there. That station has two trains a day and only carries a few hundred people a month, and I guarantee you that almost none are coming by bus or foot, nor could they be enticed to do so, since 1. The ridership base all has cars, 2. There is no shortage of free and easy parking in the area, and 3. There is no local congestion or other reason to forsake the car.

Downtown diva · June-21-09, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Diva did u ever get a pm from me?

yes i did....i am not interested in establishing a relationship on this forum. I am married...happily....

**gnome** · June-21-09, 07:43 PM

There you go S, at least you know where you stand.

Diva, still sportin that fancy grill?

**tangerine** · June-21-09, 07:51 PM

Downtown Diva, I encourage you to embrace this. the train line needs to include the suburbs. the line would actually be built first in Detroit. This is only good for the city.

Crawford: I think the idea is the tracks are where the tracks are. If you look at the plans, they contemplate a heavy commuter and inter-urban rail through the transit center, and a light rail going up woodward, with a street car connecting the two stations. The other important point about that line is that it connects with downtown Royal Oak.

I understand your sentiment completely. One side is Troy, very sprawlish. But the other side is Bham, with a traditional walkable grid and ton of cool old industrial properties being rehabbed. Plus, the dream would be to repurpose the sprawling Troy side to a much denser environment. The station is less than a half mile from the eastern edge of the downtown birmingahm Triangle district.

**Detroit Stylin** · June-21-09, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

yes i did....i am not interested in establishing a relationship on this forum. I am married...happily....

That wasnt my purpose Diva.....

**Rocko** · June-21-09, 08:01 PM

I think this is great to see, especially considering Birmingham's current sorry excuse for a train station. It's like they stole a SMART shelter and dropped it on a concrete block next to the track. I'm pleasantly surprised by the usage it gets. I know that Michigan Association of Railroad Passengers members regularly stop in there to take out the trash, and provide Amtrak schedules as needed.

Slight correction - the current Birmingham station is served by three westbound and three eastbound trains per day. Some cities have much nicer station facilities for a single train each direction per day. According to Amtrak, 19,714 passengers traveled to or from Birmingham in FY2008, or roughly 1,640 per month. That was up slightly from 2007. According to MDOT, from October 1, 2008 through the end of May, 2009, 11,489 passengers have used the Birmingham station.

I think if they make this a big picture sort of development... Amtrak plus any future commuter rail, buses, taxis, etc, this could be very successful, and I agree that it's great to see both cities working together on this.

**pffft** · June-21-09, 08:12 PM

Rocko...you know that vast brick building that houses the "Rock" restaurant right by the tracks? That used to be Birmingham's train station. I'm not sure when they decided to close down the station and sell it [[and put up a plexiglas stall to replace it), but at one time there was a gorgeous '20s vintage Tudor station, and it's still there.

Downtown diva · June-21-09, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

There you go S, at least you know where you stand.

Diva, still sportin that fancy grill?

grill?

i am not who you think i am.

Downtown diva · June-21-09, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

That wasnt my purpose Diva.....

thank goodness...was getting a little nervous....not sure what kind of things happen on the internets and all.

hope i didnt offend

**Rocko** · June-21-09, 08:34 PM

Pffft, you're right! I think they stopped using the classic Tudor Revival Birmingham station in 1983 when the SEMTA commuter trains were discontinued. And I want to say the current plexi-glass hut was put in around 2003 or so... there was another plexi-glass hut which preceeded it and was built when the extension of the Wolverine line began around 1993 or so...

As nice as it is to have a Chop House that no one can afford at the moment in the old station.... THAT would be the ultimate in bringing better amenities for the traveling passengers... plus it's location at 15 Mile is superior than the new site almost a half mile to the south along the tracks...

Random tidbit, did anyone else know that the GTW Birmingham station had the only high level platforms west of Johnstown, PA? No climbing the stairs from the platform onto the train!

**pffft** · June-21-09, 08:58 PM

Yeah, '83 sounds about right. Interesting about the high level platforms...
Having stood in that plexiglas shelter waiting for the Chicago bound Amtrak last winter I can attest...it was cold and ridiculous. It is a lot of steps up for the older passengers too. Parking is ridiculous.

**dcmorrison12** · June-21-09, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by artds

Indeed. Now if only we could get the city of Detroit to come around and stop fighting the suburbs on every little thing [[see, e.g., Cobo), we may actually have a productive, vibrant region within the next couple of decades.

It's ludicrous to say that Detroit is the reason there is a lack of regionalism in Southeastern Michigan. Have you been paying attention to the news... ever? The blame is to be shared equally, without a doubt, between city and suburbs. No-one is doing their fare share. Detroit is making huge strides though [[Ken Cockrel, Bing, Re-writing Charter) but suburbs haven't done much. Still have LBP in office...

**artds** · June-21-09, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by dcmorrison12

It's ludicrous to say that Detroit is the reason there is a lack of regionalism in Southeastern Michigan. Have you been paying attention to the news... ever? The blame is to be shared equally, without a doubt, between city and suburbs. No-one is doing their fare share. Detroit is making huge strides though [[Ken Cockrel, Bing, Re-writing Charter) but suburbs haven't done much. Still have LBP in office...

Generally speaking, the blame for the lack of regionalism is to be equally shared between Detroit and the suburbs.

However, with respect to the Cobo deal and the very real possibility that we will now lose the auto show, Detroit City Council bears the greater responsibility for that epic fuck up.

**Rocko** · June-21-09, 10:26 PM

Pffft, you're exactly right. The whole situation in Birmingham presently is ridiculous. The ten or so parking spaces are not nearly enough for the average weekday for train travelers, never mind a weekend or holiday period. I've been there and had people ask my where the actual station was because they're in such disbelief that the plexiglass cube is where the train arrives... especially because the sign says "train STATION."

Still MARP and others are trying to make a lousy situation the best it can be, by revamping their station guide page for this station to better reflect the actual situation at this "station," and by posting schedules as they can within the shelter. Now, if only someone could find the key to that information board they have on the platform... the whole sign really needs to be completely replaced, but finding the key would be a start so the information sheets could be protected better from the elements would be beneficial.

**pffft** · June-21-09, 11:34 PM

Otherwise, the train was a great experience; the Amtrak conductor was extremely nice, made sure an older lady got down the stairs...all it needs is a new station.

**ThaFuzz** · June-22-09, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

why do the suburbs get everything. that money should be diverted to us.....none of these suburbs mean a thing without detroit.....without us, they would be nothing

oh man, if I had a banana cream pie right now...

**Irvine Laird** · June-22-09, 08:03 AM

I'm impressed that Birmingham and Troy are taking the lead on transit and you should be, too. Here's why:

I live in Hazel Park and commute to Pontiac each day. I get to work easier and faster by making the 20 - 30 minute drive north on the Chrysler Freeway in my own car. Also, I attend several meetings each day away from my office. Thus, I need a mode of transportation that can get me from Pontiac to all points of regional Detroit in a fast, reliable manner.

In other words, mass transit does not appeal to me on a personal basis. I am better off driving my car.

I guess that many people who live and work in Oakland County are in the same category. They commute a long distance and they have the means to afford their own automobile and gas, etc. It makes little sense for them to push for mass transit because they would not benefit much from it on a personal level.

Those who will benefit most from mass transit in the short-term will be low-income people seeking access to jobs. They'll be the "working poor" who reside on the "poles" of Woodward--Detroit and Pontiac.

I am an active advocate for mass transit and for mobility for low income families in metro Detroit, so the above paragraph is a good thing in my opinion. However, I often wonder how the people who live along the Woodward corridor in the Bloomfields will feel about residents from Detroit and Pontiac riding buses and rails through their communities. You know, the old NIMBY attitude. I'm not predicting resistance or an uproar against mass transit in the Bloomfields, but will any of us be surprised if it does happen?

So I'm impressed that the leadership of the Birmingham Bloomfield Chamber of Commerce--along with many other community leaders--has been public in its support of regional mass transit. This demonstrates tremendous foresight and perhaps even courage.

**heedus** · June-22-09, 08:31 AM

I'm pleasantly surprised as well.

In 2003, I took a senior seminar in urban research at U of M, where we broke off into teams and studied a few different issues relevant to urbanism in metro Detroit. One team studied the Woodward light rail corridor idea. Part of their research involved interviewing/polling the public to get their feelings on mass transit. Often, this would involve attending meetings at the Elks Club, Moose Lodge, Rotary Club, etc. in Ferndale, Royal Oak, Berkeley, Birmingham, Troy, etc., presenting on the topic, and then passing out questionnaires. Their research showed that while these groups were generally in favor of public transportation, they were hesitant about any such rail line extending into Detroit. When asked why, the general response was that they were afraid of low income Detroit residents taking light rail into the suburbs, getting off on one of the stops, robbing homes within the neighborhood, and then taking the train back into Detroit with their bounty of jewelry and heirlooms.

Our class understood that this was a standard perceived fear of many suburbanites, but we were astonished that those suburbanites that our classmembers interviewed were so frank with disclosing these types of objections.

**iheartthed** · June-22-09, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Irvine Laird

I'm impressed that Birmingham and Troy are taking the lead on transit and you should be, too. Here's why:

I live in Hazel Park and commute to Pontiac each day. I get to work easier and faster by making the 20 - 30 minute drive north on the Chrysler Freeway in my own car. Also, I attend several meetings each day away from my office. Thus, I need a mode of transportation that can get me from Pontiac to all points of regional Detroit in a fast, reliable manner.

In other words, mass transit does not appeal to me on a personal basis. I am better off driving my car.

I guess that many people who live and work in Oakland County are in the same category. They commute a long distance and they have the means to afford their own automobile and gas, etc. It makes little sense for them to push for mass transit because they would not benefit much from it on a personal level.

Those who will benefit most from mass transit in the short-term will be low-income people seeking access to jobs. They'll be the "working poor" who reside on the "poles" of Woodward--Detroit and Pontiac.

I am an active advocate for mass transit and for mobility for low income families in metro Detroit, so the above paragraph is a good thing in my opinion. However, I often wonder how the people who live along the Woodward corridor in the Bloomfields will feel about residents from Detroit and Pontiac riding buses and rails through their communities. You know, the old NIMBY attitude. I'm not predicting resistance or an uproar against mass transit in the Bloomfields, but will any of us be surprised if it does happen?

So I'm impressed that the leadership of the Birmingham Bloomfield Chamber of Commerce--along with many other community leaders--has been public in its support of regional mass transit. This demonstrates tremendous foresight and perhaps even courage.

I understand that you personally might not make much use of a transit system, and from the description of your daily routine it does make sense that you won't use one if it is built. But I think it's about time people from the Detroit area got out of this mindset that mass transit is for poor people. That type of ideology is a very "Detroit way of thinking." By that I mean that it seems the country as a whole is progressing past that mindset sans Detroit. Every other major American city seems to be preferring to focus on mass transit rather than promoting private vehicle transit. And they aren't just doing it for the poor people.

**Novine** · June-22-09, 10:59 AM

"I am an active advocate for mass transit and for mobility for low income families in metro Detroit, so the above paragraph is a good thing in my opinion. However, I often wonder how the people who live along the Woodward corridor in the Bloomfields will feel about residents from Detroit and Pontiac riding buses and rails through their communities. You know, the old NIMBY attitude. I'm not predicting resistance or an uproar against mass transit in the Bloomfields, but will any of us be surprised if it does happen?"

I guess I missed the border crossings on Woodward that are being used to keep "those people" out. Don't let word get around but poor people are already passing through those communities in cars!