Masonic/Cass Project

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-09-12, 12:16 AM

This is good news, and I bet related to either Ilitch or Taubman.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120609/BIZ/206090318/Masonic-Temple-Cass-Park-may-get-38M-renovation?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

**nain rouge** · June-09-12, 01:43 AM

It's great to see the investment, but in a way it's bittersweet if it's a prelude to the new Red Wings arena. Yes, a stadium is better than blight, and yes, the eastern half Temple & Woodward is pretty ugly right now. But it's kind of sad to imagine a big chunk of Midtown being converted to a space for an arena while the old Tiger Stadium site sits empty. And what will happen to the area Joe Louis Arena occupies now?

Then again, looking at Midtown on Google Satellite still paints a picture of desolation, even after all the progress we've seen. I guess there's not much to lose.

**emu steve** · June-09-12, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

It's great to see the investment, but in a way it's bittersweet if it's a prelude to the new Red Wings arena. Yes, a stadium is better than blight, and yes, the eastern half Temple & Woodward is pretty ugly right now. But it's kind of sad to imagine a big chunk of Midtown being converted to a space for an arena while the old Tiger Stadium site sits empty. And what will happen to the area Joe Louis Arena occupies now?

Then again, looking at Midtown on Google Satellite still paints a picture of desolation, even after all the progress we've seen. I guess there's not much to lose.

What does the Tiger stadium site have to do with this?

The idea of urban development is to get synergy with one project benefiting other projects. The whole is more than the sum of the parts.

In these cases, Masonic Temple and a possible new hockey arena would augment what was done in the Comerica/Ford/Fox area.

Kind of critical mass of eateries, parking, etc. etc.

Parking for the Masonic Temple could be used for the arena.

Tiger Stadium site is isolated and of little value in terms of urban development.

**emu steve** · June-09-12, 06:21 AM

I know we've been through perhaps dozens of hockey arena threads, but would a new arena fit in the two blocks bounded by Woodward/Temple and Sibley/Park?

That would lead to the remaining area being used for parking [[as it is now).

It would also benefit Ilitich as losing parking by Woodward/Sibley [[where I park for Tiger games) would increase demand for parking in other area parking lots.

**adamjab19** · June-09-12, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

It would also benefit Ilitich as losing parking by Woodward/Sibley [[where I park for Tiger games) would increase demand for parking in other area parking lots.

and thus increasing prices! You say it so well. They probably would throw in a parking garage where those two hotel buildings are for the players and VIP's.

**emu steve** · June-09-12, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by adamjab19

and thus increasing prices! You say it so well. They probably would throw in a parking garage where those two hotel buildings are for the players and VIP's.

yes, increased prices, parking in this case, are the price of strong demand and a diminished supply as more land is used for purposes other than parking.

It is always one of those good news/bad news type stories.

We've seen this a lot in downtown Washington, D.C. where there was the 'old' east downtown which was pretty bad a few decades ago. Then development came and surface parking vanished.

I assume most considered that a good thing although the price of parking rose.

A 13 story office building is better than surface parking in terms of most productive usage.

Folks will be seeing more and more of this near Nationals Park [[Southeast D.C.) as more and more structures are being built.

In time, a lot more of the surface parking will cease to exist.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · June-09-12, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by emu steve

I know we've been through perhaps dozens of hockey arena threads, but would a new arena fit in the two blocks bounded by Woodward/Temple and Sibley/Park?

In terms of footprint for an arena itself, it would fit between Cass/Woodward and Sibley/Temple. I assume that an arena development might go one block further south to Henry Street, to allow for a larger building to have additional amenities like restaurants, stores, Red Wings Hall of Fame, that kind of thing.

I am not sure exactly where parking would go, but it could be several places. I think the Ilitch people envision a solid, walkable line of destinations from the casino on Grand River across Temple to Woodward. If that comes to pass, parking anywhere along Temple is beneficial to the casino, the Temple, and an arena. I think they would also like a solid line of development down Grand River to Grand Circus Park. I think the arena will either be behind the Fox, fronting on Grand River, or on Temple. The "other" spot will be developed by Taubman. It could be one large developed area! Wishful thinking, maybe, but I think there is a real chance it'll happen.

**nain rouge** · June-09-12, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

The idea of urban development is to get synergy with one project benefiting other projects. The whole is more than the sum of the parts.

I wouldn't say that an arena is particularly urban. Sometimes an arena can be a good asset for a city, such as the Madison Square Garden, which has events almost all year round. But look at Ford Field - besides the Lions, I think there is only one other event planned this summer. And the Lions only play 10 games at home, excluding the possibility of playoff games.

Cleveland has been doing your style of "urban development" arguably more successfully than Detroit, and the results have been largely inconsequential. If Cleveland's population trends continue, the city could end up with a population about equal to Toledo's population by the next census. That's quite a fall from glory. Somehow, despite the new sports stadiums and arenas, Rock & Roll Museum, aquarium, and etc., people aren't rushing back into Cleveland.

Reason Saves Cleveland With Drew Carey looked into this trend, and I think they really provided some scathing criticisms of this type of development that are hard to just shake off. In the end, most people just want good schools and good jobs. They don't care that much about having a major arena in their backyard. They'll live an extra 20 minutes away from Ford Field if it means they can put their kid in the kind of school they want, even if dad absolutely loves football. All an arena does is turn your city into a temporary tourist destination.

I mean, we have Joe Louis Arena, and that's practically in downtown already! But I get it, it's easier to find funding for a few megaprojects than it is to reverse broad socioeconomic trends.

So no, I won't be that excited if they put a new arena in the heart of Midtown. I'd rather see investments in schools and businesses in the area.

**Gistok** · June-09-12, 02:21 PM

I don't think anyone thinks that a new arena [[wherever it goes) is going to do anything to stem the tide of population loss. But it will help make the Downtown-Midtown-New Center area more appealing. The lower Midtown area is a major link in tying the downtown and midtown areas together.

This may also make the holdout landowners of west Foxtown think twice about not selling their empty land to Ilitch... in case that site is still in consideration for the arena.

An entertainment district from MotorCity Casino on the west, the Masonic on the north, Woodward on the east, and the Foxtown district on the south would really be a great boost and expansion to the theatre/sports entertainment district.

But such an area would be rather spread out. Maybe at some point it would be time to dust off those old Washington Blvd. trolley cars, and have a tie-in to the M-1 and People Mover, going as far west as MotorCity Casino.

**Hypestyles** · June-09-12, 03:14 PM

hopefully positive developments will happen.. how will this affect the homeless community that live near the temple? isn't there a shelter nearby?

**Wesley Mouch** · June-10-12, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

hopefully positive developments will happen.. how will this affect the homeless community that live near the temple? isn't there a shelter nearby?

In the long-term, the 'homeless' will best be helped by a vibrant local economy.

Once, the homeless lived along Michigan Avenue -- until that area was redeveloped/demolished by city planning efforts. The Cass Corridor became one of the next destinations. The homeless community will move as areas redevelop. We can and should do things to minimize permanent harm and/or death -- but beyond that, let the community address this issue -- and keep government from harming them.

**canuck** · June-10-12, 03:17 PM

The area that contains the Temple and the other massive bldgs is really ideal in terms of a college campus.

It would be nice to see something along the lines of Tech Town III taking root around there and consolidating the area by bringing in more people. If they can use some of these buildings by retrofitting them, all the better. It is strange to see that much density and then whoops, stringy emptiness all around. Detroit definitely needs to preserve these solid areas and promote their value as possible transit/business/residential and entertainment nodes.