M-1 Funding Decision

**dmike76** · May-30-12, 02:31 PM

Big day, folks. LaHood's comin' to the hood to announce USDOT's decision on the 25 million. I definitely don't like the projected operating losses involved with M-1, but I'm hoping it will increase development in the area, thus off-setting the loss. Any opinions on what will happen if LaHood, says no to the funding?

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120530/METRO/205300391#ixzz1wNeVplGy

**dmike76** · May-30-12, 02:37 PM

Also, if the money is approved, what would be the next step?

**Detroitnerd** · May-30-12, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

Also, if the money is approved, what would be the next step?

Closing down Woodward for three years?

**dmike76** · May-30-12, 02:49 PM

Well, that would be bad....but I digress. Specifically, I'm wondering if this may even get done despite the money. It makes me nervous thinking about all of the hoops M-1 is going to have to go through to get this done. If LaHood says yes, then all it means is that we have the money. It doesn't mean that the mayor and the clouncil would be ok with it and who knows with Bing? The guys says one thing and does another all the time.

**jt1** · May-30-12, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

Also, if the money is approved, what would be the next step?

Probably another five years of feasibility studies at which point they'll come to the conclusion that the fed money should be used to widen M-59, I-75 north of M-59 and the Van Dyke freeway about 30 miles north of the city.

**professorscott** · May-30-12, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

Also, if the money is approved, what would be the next step?

The detailed engineering has not been done, so far as I know. That will take some time. Woodward will not be entirely closed for this project, most likely, it will just be a matter of lanes being closed at certain places from time to time.

By the way somebody referred to an "operating loss". That's an odd way to look at it. Public transit is a public service, like the fire department or the library. Nobody says the library has an "operating loss" because public services aren't expected to cover their own expenses through direct revenue. There isn't anywhere in North America where a transit system operates at break-even or a profit.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · May-30-12, 05:09 PM

I am 100% for M1 if the finances can be made to work for operations in addition to construction. I am 100% opposed if they can't. I will be a daily rider if built. I hope it works out.

**rbdetsport** · May-30-12, 05:32 PM

Woodward Avenue is a state highway, hints the M-1. A project like this does not necessarily need council and mayoral approval. Regardless, I think they would support the project anyways. How can you not? It is being mostly funded by private investors. That opportunity does not come too often.

Originally Posted by dmike76

Well, that would be bad....but I digress. Specifically, I'm wondering if this may even get done despite the money. It makes me nervous thinking about all of the hoops M-1 is going to have to go through to get this done. If LaHood says yes, then all it means is that we have the money. It doesn't mean that the mayor and the clouncil would be ok with it and who knows with Bing? The guys says one thing and does another all the time.

**Detroitdave** · May-31-12, 04:28 AM

I hope they get this done. Michigan sends way too much money to other states and gets very little in return . Like professorscott said ,no transit system in the world covers their operating cost , Detroit and Michigan is LONG over due.

Build it first , we can worry about the other stuff later . No other major city with a transit system has ever close it down because they couldn't cover the "operating cost" . The fed will cover it like the do in NYC, Chicago, SF, LA, Dallas, Seattle, Boston, ect .

**Hermod** · May-31-12, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

I hope they get this done. Michigan sends way too much money to other states and gets very little in return .

That whole "donor state/receiver state" spiel is one of the most intellectually dishonest arguments out there. It includes the entire federal budget in its calculations.

One of the big parts of the federal budget is social security. If you have a high ratio of workers to retirees in your state, you are a "donor state" with respect to social security Florida and Arizona are prime locations for people retiring because of the warm climates there. They then become big "receiver states" with respect to social security.

Another big part of the federal budget is defense. States with large defense activities receive the bulk of defense monies. Virginia with the naval complex at Norfolk is a big "receiver state" for defense monies I don't think you would propose a major navy yard in Detroit?

You have to look at the areas where the feds dole out the money that the states should be raising themselves like education, welfare, health [[not Medicare), highways, transit, and other federal grants and see how they are allocated between the states before you say that Michigan is unfairly treated.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-31-12, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

I hope they get this done. Michigan sends way too much money to other states and gets very little in return . Like professorscott said ,no transit system in the world covers their operating cost , Detroit and Michigan is LONG over due .
Build it first , we can worry about the other stuff later . No other major city with a transit system has ever close it down because they couldn't cover the "operating cost" . The fed will cover it like the do in NYC, Chicago, SF, LA, Dallas, Seattle, Boston, ect .

The federal government doesn't pay for transit system operating costs.

**Hermod** · May-31-12, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

The federal government doesn't pay for transit system operating costs.

No they don't and if you try to trim back the extent of the system because you can't pay the operating costs, they ask for their share of the building costs back.

We have Tri-Rail here in Florida which is one of the worst systems in the US for the share of operating costs coming out of the fare box. When the three operating counties were really getting pinched during the real estate downturn, they proposed drastic cutbacks in the system schedule and were told that would trigger a federal call for return of construction funds.

**mwilbert** · May-31-12, 08:31 AM

You have to look at the areas where the feds dole out the money that the states should be raising themselves like education, welfare, health [[not Medicare), highways, transit, and other federal grants and see how they are allocated between the states before you say that Michigan is unfairly treated.

This is way too narrow. You have to look at why stuff is distributed as it is. Leaving aside the fact that there wouldn't be a lot of retirees in Arizona without massively subsidized federal water projects, federal installations aren't distributed in any reasonable way. South Carolina is buried under military bases because Mendel Rivers was head of the Armed Services committee for a long time. West Virginia is full of random federal offices because Robert Byrd was head of Appropriations. You probably remember why the Johnson Space Center is in Houston. In general there is a lot of stuff in the south because there was a long period where Southern Democrats had seniority in Congress and put it there.

And while I would not call the distribution of Social Security and Medicare unfair, it is a fact that it takes money from some places and puts it in others, and that has real consequences for those places. It isn't dishonest to point that out.

**cramerro** · May-31-12, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

Woodward Avenue is a state highway, hints the M-1. A project like this does not necessarily need council and mayoral approval. Regardless, I think they would support the project anyways. How can you not? It is being mostly funded by private investors. That opportunity does not come too often.

The City has some control, I'm not sure the specifics but they can say "NO" if they really want to. Case in point: M-1 Rail was at this exact juncture 5+ years ago, and the City forced them to join the DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail effort instead of go on their own. Now after some very public failures by the city, they have recovered to their original point and seem to have a more sound financial estimate [[being higher) and more firm/higher level of committments for the financing.

I really hope this happens, and I can't imagine LaHood would come to town to have a presser announcing the project is dead. He's a great guy with high standards but even I wouldn't schedule a trip and line up all the local electeds and philanthropists just to tell them NO.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-31-12, 09:21 AM

I'd agree with cramerro. In addition, MDOT is not going to approve anything along Woodward that the City would not want. particularly something that has been contreversial. Remember folks, we have complete streets now.

**Junkin4Life** · June-04-12, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

Probably another five years of feasibility studies at which point they'll come to the conclusion that the fed money should be used to widen M-59, I-75 north of M-59 and the Van Dyke freeway about 30 miles north of the city.

What about the widening on I-94????

**townonenorth** · June-04-12, 11:37 AM

Still too many unanswered questions for the Feds to kick in the money, specifically the 800 pound gorrilla in the room named operating costs.

Kick the can down the road some more, guys. 60 days, then another 90 days, and pretty soon people will forget about it, or change governments.

**jtf1972** · June-04-12, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Probably another five years of feasibility studies at which point they'll come to the conclusion that the fed money should be used to widen M-59, I-75 north of M-59 and the Van Dyke freeway about 30 miles north of the city.

25 million doesn't cover the costs of rehabilitating an interchange.

As for operating losses... I don't see how to avoid loss when it is a single line that will not interconnect with other transit. It's like whatever transit gets approved/built here is set up to fail so it can be pointed to as an example of why it is not feasible.

Want to put together a REAL transit system? Start with underground subways on Woodward, Gratiot & Grand River. Crosstown underground subways along Warren, Mack & Jefferson/Michigan. All terminating at approximately Grand Boulevard.

The Federal Government pays 90% of costs [[matching their contributions to the highway $$$ according to the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 that pretty much killed public transit development in the first place.)

Additionally, Ray LaHood sits down with the brass from GM, Ford & Chrysler & says "We helped you, now help us. You are 'Motor' Companies, not just automobile companies. We have given up building mass transit to Japanese companies. It's time America builds for America. The tracks in Detroit will also be used in off-hours as development track for your new subway cars."

If we did that, Detroit in 20 years would be unrecognizable from the mess we have today.

**jtf1972** · June-04-12, 12:11 PM

For those debating whether M-1 gets the 25 mil... Do we really think LaHood would come here to say "Sorry." You can do that from your desk in DC. If you go to the location it is to get the pats on the back, applause and photo ops.

**bailey** · June-04-12, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

For those debating whether M-1 gets the 25 mil... Do we really think LaHood would come here to say "Sorry." You can do that from your desk in DC. If you go to the location it is to get the pats on the back, applause and photo ops.

Well, it kinda sorta seems like it could go down like that...

The plan for a 3.3-mile light rail line on Woodward Avenue hit a red light this morning when top U.S. transportation officials told local backers of the plan that the feds still aren’t convinced Detroit’s streetcar plan is ready to go over the long haul.
....
Penske said the feds’ concerns are about long-term funding and management of the rail line. “I think that’s one of the critical things the secretary said: We want to be sure this program will go on,” Penske said. “We need an RTA.”

Penske added: “There were no game stoppers.”

Um. Roger, if there is no RTA [[which there isn't and likely wont be for years) then that is sort of a "game stopper". No?

**corktownyuppie** · June-04-12, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Well, it kinda sorta seems like it could go down like that...

Um. Roger, if there is no RTA [[which there isn't and likely wont be for years) then that is sort of a "game stopper". No?

Even Patterson is on record from last week saying that SE Michigan needs an RTA. I actually it'll happen this time.

**bailey** · June-04-12, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Even Patterson is on record from last week saying that SE Michigan needs an RTA. I actually it'll happen this time.

Within 60 Days?

Bing said the feds gave the Detroit project’s supporters another 60 days to address concerns about actual costs of building and long-term operation of M-1 rail, which would run from downtown to the New Center area, and management of the rail line beyond its first decade of operation.

**Novine** · June-04-12, 01:40 PM

"Even Patterson is on record from last week saying that SE Michigan needs an RTA. I actually it'll happen this time."

I'm sure I read that here 6 months ago and it still hasn't happened.

**corktownyuppie** · June-04-12, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Within 60 Days?

That's the million dollar question. The bills have already passed through Senate Sub-committees with favorable recommendations. The Senate takes it up this week.

**Hypestyles** · June-04-12, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Probably another five years of feasibility studies at which point they'll come to the conclusion that the fed money should be used to widen M-59, I-75 north of M-59 and the Van Dyke freeway about 30 miles north of the city.

... and in the meanwhile, the rapid transit bus plans will also probably be scuttled..