Mt. Clemens: What's the deal?

[nain rouge]

Macomb County, as we know, is the king of sprawl and home of the legendary Hall Road. People like to rag on Oakland County, but at least it has downtown Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Rochester - yes, even something like downtown Rochester would seem like a big deal in Macomb.

The only real respite from the sprawl in Macomb is Mt. Clemens, which has been the capitol of Macomb since 1818. Thanks to huge swell of interest in Mt. Clemens's supposedly unique mineral water in the late 1800s, Mt. Clemens became a major tourist destination dubbed "Bath City". Visitors from across the country arrived to heal themselves in the city's many bathhouses, undertaking treatment courses that sometimes lasted weeks. Before urban sprawl was a gleam in L. Brooks Patterson's eye, Mt. Clemens was built up some 25 miles north of downtown Detroit. It was a boom town, full of apartments and entertainment venues - it even had a raceway and a casino.

By the 1940s, though, mineral baths had fallen out of public favor. Significant advances in modern medicine led people to look to science instead of nature for cures. Though nearly all of the hotels and bathhouses associated with Mt. Clemens' glory days are now gone, a sizable downtown and a population of about 16,000 people still remains. Today, Mt. Clemens bills itself as the entertainment and dining capitol of company, and even gives people on jury duty at the county court a beeper so they can leave the courtroom and visit downtown.

In an era when downtowns and walkable communities are all the rage, it's worthwhile to ask why Mt. Clemens hasn't seen the same resurgence in interest the downtowns along Woodward have. Mt. Clemens' downtown comprises several city blocks, features a small urban park, and generally looks like you'd expect a downtown to look.

For a small community, Mt. Clemens is fairly progressive and forward thinking. In the early 1980s, the city had the foresight to not only create, but to pour considerable resources into a Downtown Development Authority [[DDA), which helped revitalize Mt. Clemens going into the 1990s. In addition, the city also has an art center, a very active historical society, was able to attract Oakland University's first satellite campus to its downtown, and is the most likely candidate for Macomb's planned Hands On Children's Museum.

Architecturally, Mt. Clemens has some real gems. St. Joseph's Sanitorium, one of the city's original bathhouses, still exists and is relatively well-preserved, although it's not utilized for any purpose currently. The Old Macomb County Building is a 219 foot art deco structure that is somehow a one-of-a-kind building in a metro region overflowing with art deco skyscrapers. Built in 1930s and 1940s, it's the center of Mt. Clemens' modest but real skyline. The imposing busts of warriors and sailors peak out from the top of the building, gazing over the city, and fanciful plaques dedicated to humanity's progress dot its outside walls. The historic, dense downtown is just a block away from the building, and its also a short walk away from neighborhoods with large Tudor, Craftsman, and Italianate homes built during the height of the Mt. Clemens Bath City era.

In the last few years, lofts and other residential spaces have even opened up in and around downtown, with some success. What more could you want? And yet, it apparently hasn't been enough. A recent report by Mt. Clemens' DDA stated that the city's downtown was showing "signs of distress". The 7-story Price Building nearby sits vacant with its window open, and its far from the only sign of vacancy. About three-fifths of the tenants in the downtown area are either restaurants or bars, taking up over 30 commercial spaces. This gives the downtown a touristy feel, and there is often an alarming lack of pedestrians because of the lack of proper mixed use - there's no reason for locals to visit the area on a frequent basis. People drive up to a specific bar or restaurant and then drive off afterwards.

Also, the DDA has been far from perfect at times. A huge part of what I imagine was once part of downtown is now a series of surface parking lofts situated behind what remains. Wouldn't one decently sized parking garage have been better? The areas around downtown could be more pedestrian friendly, too. There aren't many clearly designated crosswalks.

Finally, what I think is really hurting downtown Mt. Clemens is the lack of culture - and I'm not sure how they can fix that. Mt. Clemens has what feels like a working class and old person's kind of downtown. Which isn't necessarily problem, except for the fact that the downtown appears to be struggling to attract enough people on a regular basis. I realize that Royal Oak and et. al. are far from cultural meccas, but they at least maintain a thin veneer of culture. I suspect a big part of the cultural problem is the crime in Mt. Clemens. While Mt. Clemens isn't as bad as Detroit, it's noticeably worse than cities like Ferndale, and that probably discourages many of the more affluent Metro Detroiters from visiting.

So what do you guys think? Is there a way to turn Mt. Clemens into downtown hub equal to Royal Oak? Or is it stuck with what it is? I feel like Mt. Clemens has a lot of unfulfilled promise. It has a rich history and lots of warm, friendly people. I went bar hopping one night in Mt. Clemens and was overwhelmed with how nice everyone was, including the waitstaff. You don't get that impression in Oakland County's downtowns, where people tend to be a bit uppity. Then again, would making Mt. Clemens a more cultural place ruin that vibe?

And for the record - no, I don't live in Mt. Clemens, but I do live in Macomb.

[p69rrh51]

For a little historic perspective a few of the hotels catering to the bathhouses. Plus one bathhouse.


Colonial Hotel, 1895.

Fountain House, 1895.

Egnew Hotel, 1895.

Hotel Egnew and bath house, 1895.

Medea Bath House, 1895.

Park Hotel, 1895.

[Gistok]

Nain Rouge, you bring up some very good questions.

As a county seat, Mt. Clemens seems perfect. When you compare the county government of Macomb to Oakland, where it's sprawled out in a large campus near a large dying mall... Mt. Clemens has its' county government compactly situated in the heart of the city. Also nearby is the shopping mecca of Hall Road. And also nearby are some of the priciest neighborhoods in the county... namely to the east along the Clinton River, mile after mile of affluent riverfront residences.... and to the southwest... mile after mile of affluence in the "Italian" enclaves of Moravian and Millar Roads. [[I say Italian, because of all the visible statuary and even vineyards in some areas).

Maybe forumer Krawlspace [[who is affiliated with the Emerald Theatre in downtown Mt. Clemens) can shed some light on this subject.

But I wonder if the nearby M-59 Hall Road corridor has sucked all the life out of Mt. Clemens?

[Goose]

I completly agree with the OP, at time when Ive been there, its always been a good time, but always underwhelmed by the amount of people on the streets....

[nain rouge]

But I wonder if the nearby M-59 Hall Road corridor has sucked all the life out of Mt. Clemens?

I've wondered that, too. The "fake" downtown of Partridge Creek on 20 Mile is doing great, for example. It has all the brand name shops and restaurants people north of 20 Mile in both Macomb and Oakland worship [[North Face is one of their current gods, right?), and it's a very short drive away from a bunch of bars. Considering that most that choose to live out there are very comfortable with the automobile lifestyle, I could see how all the development on 20 Mile could be a drain, and Mt. Clemens itself doesn't have a big enough population to support that kind of downtown.

[poobert]

I've wondered that, too. The "fake" downtown of Partridge Creek on 20 Mile is doing great, for example. It has all the brand name shops and restaurants people north of 20 Mile in both Macomb and Oakland worship [[North Face is one of their current gods, right?), and it's a very short drive away from a bunch of bars. Considering that most that choose to live out there are very comfortable with the automobile lifestyle, I could see how all the development on 20 Mile could be a drain, and Mt. Clemens itself doesn't have a big enough population to support that kind of downtown.[/COLOR]

The car dependence is all-consuming in Macomb. Also places like Rochester, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and the Pointes are successful in part because it is fashionable among fashionable people to go hang out in cutesy downtowns, and, to be blunt, Macomb County isn't chalk overflowing with fashionable people. Hall Road and cheesy fake downtown malls are just awesome for them, as we can all readily see by their success.

It really is too bad. There was a lot of potential for Mt. Clemens. It could have really been an alternative to the bland yuppie dirge of Ferndale and Royal Oak - probably not a lot unlike the old blue collar Detroit commercial streets.

Nice collection of churches, too. Has a very American small-town feel to it.

[Gistok]

...and, to be blunt, Macomb County isn't chalk overflowing with fashionable people.

Kinda makes you wonder what all them there knuckle draggers are doing in a place like Nordsrtom's or Parisian, don't it? Maybe they're getting gussied up for the next WWF Smackdown...

<Sarcasm alert off>

[Hermod]

Utica, Romeo, and New Baltimore also were nice little towns in Macomb County.


For a bar with the "feel" of the old time Detroit bars, I could recommend the Waldenburg Bar on Romeo Plank and 22 Mile. It still has that ambiance of the blue collar neighborhood place with 3rd & 4th generation sons of immigrants.

[Hermod]

[[I say Italian, because of all the visible statuary and even vineyards in some areas).

Question: What do two flamingos do when they get married?

Answer: They buy a pair of cast iron Italians to put on their front lawn.

[canuck]

With the technology to free us from hard labor, we also have intently discarded some of the most valuable treasures and replaced them with blahness. The repetition across the continent is unbearably persistent, and it seem like even majestic trees have a dedicated purpose and place in these redundant landscapes. It is not about to stop soon.

[313WX]

Macomb County, as we know, is the king of sprawl and home of the legendary Hall Road. People like to rag on Oakland County, but at least it has downtown Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and Rochester - yes, even something like downtown Rochester would seem like a big deal in Macomb.

I can explain that one.

Oakland County is all in your face with its sprawl [[how about great it is for the county and how they love it), Macomb County is not.

People hate people who brag, especially when they don't know what they're even bragging about.

Also, Macomb county, at least the southern half, is far more developed infrastructurally than Oakland County. In majority of Oakland County, if it weren't for all the god awful traffic, it would seem as if you were in the middle of nowhere with all the wood-esque areas

[JBMcB]

I love all the holier-than-thou culture warrior posts on this thread - as though there is some ideal "culture" that all cities simply *must* adopt.

Please, keep pontificating, at the very least for the humor value.

[Wheels]

I love all the holier-than-thou culture warrior posts on this thread - as though there is some ideal "culture" that all cities simply *must* adopt.

Please, keep pontificating, at the very least for the humor value.

How true!

Do you think they even realize they profess a lifestyle only a very small percentage of the country live? Then add in the fact that a large portion of them dream of a better life away from the rat race of city life!

It gets very humorous to listen to some of the ridiculous arguments like density and street walls though. If only we could ban cars and parking lots all would be better.

[mwilbert]

Do you think they even realize they profess a lifestyle only a very small percentage of the country live? Then add in the fact that a large portion of them dream of a better life away from the rat race of city life!

It gets very humorous to listen to some of the ridiculous arguments like density and street walls though. If only we could ban cars and parking lots all would be better.

There are different arguments here that you seem not to be distinguishing. I don't see anyone saying that we would be better off without cars or parking lots. I do see people saying that city centers would be better off without surface lots, but that isn't really the same thing.

Also, there is a difference between thinking that we need more dense urban areas in Metro Detroit and saying that everyone wants to live in those places. Survey data says most people do not want to live in walkable urban areas, but maybe somewhere around 30% do. That may be different in metro Detroit, but only a very small percentage of the region has walkable urban density, so very likely there is unmet demand. Streetwalls are simply part of what you need to make an area walkable. There isn't anything ridiculous about it.

The main reason as few people live in dense walkable areas nationally as do is that there aren't enough of them. Zoning rules pretty much prevent the creation of new walkable areas, so we mostly only have ones that existed before the Depression, and people don't necessarily live where they want to, but where they can. A lot of people might like to live on Beacon Hill or Russian Hill or SoHo, but there is limited space, the prices get bid up, and they can't afford to. Certainly many of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country are walkable urban, so someone wants to live there.

[Wesley Mouch]

Mt. Clemens seems on a pretty good track to me. Yes, it would be nice to see it grow into something even better -- but I'm not unhappy with what we have.

I think the major reason is... Much to the distress of anti-freeway forum friends no doubt.... RO has benefited greatly from being near the confluence of two great freeways -- I75 and I696. People from most of the metro area can all find it easy to get to RO. Mt. Clemens is well-situated with 94, Gratiot, and 59, but it is on the edge -- not the center of the region.

So Mt. Clemens just has to wait for the next round of post-financial-market-sprawl.

[professorscott]

Here's one big difference between Mt. Clemens and the Oakland County communities mentioned earlier in the thread: Most of those Oakland County communities, save Birmingham, you drive through downtown on the main roads: Ferndale you have Woodward and 9 Mile, both of which go through downtown; Royal Oak is bypassed by Woodward but Main and 11 Mile both go through downtown; Birmingham is slightly bypassed by Woodward but 15 Mile goes through downtown.

M-3 goes around downtown Mt. Clemens, not through it, and there is no major traffic generating east-west road. M-59 is a couple miles north of Mt. Clemens and in fact never enters the city at all. So most of the people driving near Mt. Clemens never even see the downtown.

M-59 has taken the retail thunder away from every community in south and central Macomb County. It is an absolute economic disaster, and it is also partly to blame for Mt. Clemens' difficulties. But I think mostly the "hidden" downtown is to blame.

[canuck]

I love all the holier-than-thou culture warrior posts on this thread - as though there is some ideal "culture" that all cities simply *must* adopt.

Please, keep pontificating, at the very least for the humor value.

Well the point of this forum is to debate these points, not ignore the environment we are focussing on. It may be funny to both of us for different reasons but it all needs to be debated so that we can make informed decisions. Sprawl is a definite problem we all need to address, urban density takes many forms and we can find ways to make cities more interesting by avoiding the mistakes of the recent 60+ years.

[Patrick]

Mt. Clemens has some really nice architecture, especially nice homes along the Clinton River. You can say what you want about the downtowns of Ferndale RO, Pontiac and Birmingham...but I like the downtown area in Mt. Clemens the best. I like the layout and there isn't an "uppity" feel like you get in the west-side "downtown" areas.

[nain rouge]

I love all the holier-than-thou culture warrior posts on this thread - as though there is some ideal "culture" that all cities simply *must* adopt.

Well, who's leading the charge to move back into the city? Either the affluent or artsy people. I'm just accepting reality. Most blue collar people in cities like Detroit probably feel trapped and would love to move to Eastpointe or Southfield, or maybe even out of the state. I myself don't have much money, and that's why I'm living in Warren. I couldn't afford to fix up a house in Detroit or make a risky housing investment [[or lengthen my commute). And most blue collar people in the suburbs probably don't really care about the arguments people make for moving back to the city.

Whereas the growth of big cities was organically driven, it's now intellectually driven - you move to the city not so much out necessity, but because of your opinions on life.

[Bham1982]

Why would Mt. Clemens have a thriving downtown? I'm surprised that others are surprised it doesn't.

Mt. Clemens is basically a smaller version of Pontiac. It's poor, depressed, and declining. It's like countless other older working class towns in the Rustbelt. High taxes, bad schools, factory-worker housing stock.

Really the only advantage Mt. Clemens has over Pontiac is that the county functions are mostly downtown. But I'm not even sure this is such a huge advantage. Pontiac has a downtown hospital and a fair number of county functions. It probably isn't that big of a difference. And at least Pontiac has Mexican immigrants.

[DetroitPlanner]

Mt Clemens has far too many poor people living there for it to be a fancy pants city that draws fancy pants people. The city itself is surrounded by trailer parks and most of the neighborhoods has suffered through decades of neglect.

You may as well ask how come River Rouge, Wayne, Romulus, Pontiac, and Ecorse are not better off than they are. These are all very similar cities with similar problems.

I only wish people would start directing resources to help those cities that need them instead of blaming them.

[Gistok]

Ummm.... look what is DIRECTLY across the street from Partridge Creek.... directly on M-59...
http://www.mhvillage.com/Communities....php?key=15094

... and there's more down the street...

[nain rouge]

Mt. Clemens is basically a smaller version of Pontiac. It's poor, depressed, and declining. It's like countless other older working class towns in the Rustbelt. High taxes, bad schools, factory-worker housing stock.

Mt. Clemens has several neighborhoods with great housing stock, and it's downtown it bigger than Pontiac's at this point. Pontiac has maybe a street left at this point, unfortunately. Also, the history of Mt. Clemens is unique for the region - its not nearly as tied to the automobile industry as the cities along Woodward. Pontiac was a factory town through and though, while Mt. Clemens has a more nuanced history. [[That said, I think Pontiac has a lot going for it, and I hope it recovers, too.)

Now, maybe you think that history means nothing. But it's been proven time and time again that fake Main Streets rarely work. Novi built one and no one fell for it. Warren tried and all the city has to show for it is a bunch of For Sale signs on plots around City Hall. Partridge Creek works as a retail center, but isn't necessarily attracting residents to the area. Partridge Creek's patrons are happy to drive from one of the many different towns north of Hall Road. They like the chance to walk but also place walkable communities way down on their list of priorities. So, if we're banking on our walkable communities being a big part of the future, we should try to preserve whatever historically walkable areas we have. Otherwise, we'll be left to wrong.

Also, I was wrong to say that downtown Mt. Clemens needs affluent people. Really, it just needs to more people, period. That could mean attracting more blue collar people, or whatever. It just needs to be happen.

Ultimately, the failures of cities like Mt. Clemens pose serious questions for the future of urban communities. Right now, there's this idea that our urban environments can be saved by essentially turning them into adult playgrounds. Get your Olga's, your organic food stores, your breweries, your Apple Store, your museums, and etc. downtown and watch the city flourish. That seems like a faddish, transient way to rebuild a city, to me. What happens to all the urban cities and sections of urban cities that, for whatever fickle reason [[like the proximity to trailers parks), are deemed unsuitable for these adult playgrounds? Do we just try and flush them down the toilet?

Until gas hits $8 a gallon, I'm starting to wonder if this all just a bunch of wasted energy. Who is this really helping out?

[Mark Smiles]

I absolutely hate Mount Clemens.

The county seat should be moved somewhere with out parking meters and the city can take their parking meters and shove them where the sun does not shine.

If someone is called in for jury duty, or has to visit the idiots [[putting it kindly) at the Friend of the Court, they should not have to pay to park, or have to ride a stupid shuttle bus. Let the government workers ride the stupid shuttle, and give the guests a better spot. You see Mount Clemens is not about putting it’s best foot forward for it’s guests, it it all about screwing them over on parking meters.

The way Gratiot was routed to go around downtown, was approved by the Brain Trust of the city. Route traffic and people away from downtown, then complain about a lack of traffic downtown?

Most of all I hate Mount Clemens because they forced out the Race Track of a Flea Market.

Bulldoze the darned place for all I care.

[nain rouge]

Bulldoze a city since you hate parking meters? I suppose you want to take the wrecking ball to Detroit next?