Oakland County and the DIA: Just one more reason this region will continue to decline

**jt1** · May-18-12, 09:46 AM

Congratulations to the 15 commissioners that had the sense to realize that arts are a critical piece of maintaining a regional quality of life. However, the fact that 9 of 24 commissioners did not even want voters to determine this fate is appalling. Even more appalling is the comment by Chris Long, commissioner of Commerce Township in today's print copy of the Free Press:

"She also noted that the other millages mentioned[[SMART, the zoo, parks and rec) involved serices in Oakland County, not just in Detroit"

So she is fine with Detroiters paying taxes on the zoo and HCMA and having nothing in the borders but heaven forbid we have a regional tax to support something that is in Detroit.

Yes, Detroit has more problems that I care to count but the lack of regional thinking [[unless a regional tax supports something in her county - then it is fine) shows that we are sliding further and further into a worthless backwoods region.

**j to the jeremy** · May-18-12, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

Congratulations to the 15 commissioners that had the sense to realize that arts are a critical piece of maintaining a regional quality of life. However, the fact that 9 of 24 commissioners did not even want voters to determine this fate is appalling. Even more appalling is the comment by Chris Long, commissioner of Commerce Township in today's print copy of the Free Press:

"She also noted that the other millages mentioned[[SMART, the zoo, parks and rec) involved serices in Oakland County, not just in Detroit"

So she is fine with Detroiters paying taxes on the zoo and HCMA and having nothing in the borders but heaven forbid we have a regional tax to support something that is in Detroit.

Yes, Detroit has more problems that I care to count but the lack of regional thinking [[unless a regional tax supports something in her county - then it is fine) shows that we are sliding further and further into a worthless backwoods region.

OC residents love to talk about how Detroiters want to be freeloaders off of their growth. Many Oaklanders still think that their strong economy only exists due to low taxes and conservative family values.

But they never admit that their county only exists because of the city, or that their malls and restaurants are some of the major employers of Detroiters, or that their roads and water systems are paid for partly by Detroiters. This allows them to oppose regional transit, regional millages, and anything else that attempts to help the low income residents of SE Michigan, who mostly live in Detroit.

It's a mental block that serves to perpetuate classism and racism, and i wonder how many white residents of the suburbs associate "regionalism" with "integration", whether consciously or subconsciously.

**gazhekwe** · May-18-12, 10:37 AM

Typical teap vision there, seeing only the $$ needed and not the benefits that will be maintained for all if $$ is secured. If we all contribute, we all have the satisfaction of our community benefit.

**Bham1982** · May-18-12, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

OC residents love to talk about how Detroiters want to be freeloaders off of their growth. Many Oaklanders still think that their strong economy only exists due to low taxes and conservative family values.

Oakland County has easily the highest taxes of the suburban counties. You move to Macomb or Livingston for low taxes.

And, outside of the very fringe [[places like Holly), it's hardly a hotbed of "conservative family values". The non-exurban sections of Oakland are majority Democrat nowadays, and represented by Gary Peters [[D) and Sander Levin [[D), both relatively left-of-center.

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

But they never admit that their county only exists because of the city, or that their malls and restaurants are some of the major employers of Detroiters, or that their roads and water systems are paid for partly by Detroiters.

I think it would be the rare idiot who is unaware that Oakland suburbs originated as an outgrowth from Detroit.

**corktownyuppie** · May-18-12, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

OC residents love to talk about how Detroiters want to be freeloaders off of their growth. Many Oaklanders still think that their strong economy only exists due to low taxes and conservative family values.

I don't think their strong economy exists due to low taxes and conservative family values. I think their strong economy exists because 50% of their residents have a college degree. Whereas in Detroit, 47% of adults are illiterate, and 30-40% of DPS students drop out without a high school diploma.

When the president of school board admits that he's functionally illiterate, in most communities there would be outrage and demands for resignation. In Detroit, the masses say, "well, at least he understands what we go through."

That condescension which you perceive is real. But it's not racist. It's the condescension that is normal to feel when you're pulling your weight and your teammates aren't. It's the anger you feel when you show up for practice every day and then the de-conditioned teammate who skips most practices and then shows up late when he does is holding everyone back because he can't run.

And all the things you are saying about how the suburbs wouldn't have existed without Detroit's contribution? They're accurate. But much of that contribution took place at a time when the people who live in the suburbs now were Detroiters.

So we're angry at them. They're angry at us. Some of them have legit gripes and reasons to be angry. Some of them are totally overblown. Some of us have legit gripes, but some [[maybe even many) of us are living in our imaginary world where the laws of cause and effect no longer apply.

When it's all said and done, let's remember that at least Oakland County is going forward with the vote. Remember Macomb County? That took a couple of tries.

**Pam** · May-18-12, 10:49 AM

So it will be on the ballot in Oakland? Your headline is misleading.

**jt1** · May-18-12, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Oakland County has easily the highest taxes of the suburban counties. You move to Macomb or Livingston for low taxes.

And, outside of the very fringe [[places like Holly), it's hardly a hotbed of "conservative family values". The non-exurban sections of Oakland are majority Democrat nowadays, and represented by Gary Peters [[D) and Sander Levin [[D), both relatively left-of-center.

I think it would be the rare idiot who is unaware that Oakland suburbs originated as an outgrowth from Detroit.

Sadly, I think the idiots are more frequent that rare. The bigger concern is that when people speak of being a net donor County they are too willing to ignore that during the growth years, when Detroit was the economic and population center of the region that they were a net receiver county.

It seems like a parent raising a child and paying for college then when the parent asks for a few dollars to help with a bill the kid tells them that they are a burden.

**jt1** · May-18-12, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

So it will be on the ballot in Oakland? Your headline is misleading.

The headline, IMO, is not misleading as 38% of commissioners chose not to even allow this on the ballot. Sorry, if 38% of a sample population is against regionalization and arts because of the geographic location the region is doomed to live up to it's reputation of a backwoods region.

Additionally, the point of my post was about Chris Long's statements that she can't support a tax for an institution in Detroit. Detroiters paying for the Zoo is fine. Detroiters paying for HCMA is fine but reverse the role and it is a burden on her and her neighbors.

That attitude is sickening and will kill the region. I woudl hope that Ms. Long would actively try to repeal HCMA and Zoo taxes since there are communities without these assets in their backyard.

**j to the jeremy** · May-18-12, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I don't think their strong economy exists due to low taxes and conservative family values. I think their strong economy exists because 50% of their residents have a college degree. Whereas in Detroit, 47% of adults are illiterate, and 30-40% of DPS students drop out without a high school diploma.

When the president of school board admits that he's functionally illiterate, in most communities there would be outrage and demands for resignation. In Detroit, the masses say, "well, at least he understands what we go through."

That condescension which you perceive is real. But it's not racist. It's the condescension that is normal to feel when you're pulling your weight and your teammates aren't. It's the anger you feel when you show up for practice every day and then the de-conditioned teammate who skips most practices and then shows up late when he does is holding everyone back because he can't run.

And all the things you are saying about how the suburbs wouldn't have existed without Detroit's contribution? They're accurate. But much of that contribution took place at a time when the people who live in the suburbs now were Detroiters.

So we're angry at them. They're angry at us. Some of them have legit gripes and reasons to be angry. Some of them are totally overblown. Some of us have legit gripes, but some [[maybe even many) of us are living in our imaginary world where the laws of cause and effect no longer apply.

When it's all said and done, let's remember that at least Oakland County is going forward with the vote. Remember Macomb County? That took a couple of tries.

I know that OC is a diverse place but the condescension I'm speaking of does reflect racism sometimes. I know this because I once thought it didn't, only to spend a few weeks in Troy, Bloomfield, and Rochester, and listen to people from those wondeful suburban school systems make n***er jokes until I told them I lived in the city. These were not 50 year old white men, they were 20 year old white men from middle class to affluent, "democrat" backgrounds. Say what you will, but pretty much all of the codespeak I hear is coming from north of 11 mile. Ignorance is scarier to me when it comes from the mouths of people with college degrees and paid off homes.

And yes, I'll apologize for the blanket statements but the undercurrent of racism is real. Bham, you're right about the taxes. However, corktown, if you're implying that I live in an imaginary world, you're wrong. I know that our region is f*cked beyond repair most likely, but many of the people who have the education to right past wrongs largely perpetuate the f*cked up system by avoiding any kind of support for the city or for regional collaboration.

**corktownyuppie** · May-18-12, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

It seems like a parent raising a child and paying for college then when the parent asks for a few dollars to help with a bill the kid tells them that they are a burden.

Unless that parent is an alcoholic and you're getting awfully tired of giving your dad some money only to find out that he's spending it on booze. Or that parent is unemployed but only because he thinks it's ridiculous that his compensation should be commensurate with his production.

**Pam** · May-18-12, 11:05 AM

The headline, IMO, is not misleading as 38% of commissioners chose not to even allow this on the ballot. Sorry, if 38% of a sample population is against regionalization and arts because of the geographic location the region is doomed to live up to it's reputation of a backwoods region.

But the majority of the comissioners voted for it, so that's good news. Let's focus now on getting the measure passed.

**Detroitdave** · May-18-12, 11:21 AM

The DIA is an important piece of the REGIONAL metro draw , it's just as important as Cobo , and the Airport , which also draw people to the area and to move here . The 9 Oakland country commissioners who didn't vote for it ARE short sighted. 9 times out of 10 their parents had some part in building the damn thing in the first place .!
Also, when anyone in metro Detroit has visitors , this is one of the attractions that is shown to visitors. Losing the DIA would be horrible for the entire state!
I can't even believe we are having this discussion , this is a legacy of metro Detroit .I was listening to npr and they were talk about this very subject .
They were saying in ANY other major city it would cost $20 or more for a major museum like this . Plenty of Detroiters tax money goes across the boarder to Oakland County which was mention earlier . Saving a gem like DIA is a no brainier . We've already lost The belle isle aquarium , Remember most of the tax dollars that's needed to keep it open, were taken north to Oakland county.
They can't look back and say " oh well if "they" can't keep it open tough"., but they want to come and visit at a really cheap price .
it already sucks that most to the libraries are closing , this is just something that is VERY important for the entire region, This would NEVER happen in "everyones" favorite city Chicago , or NYC ! The DIA is just as important and deserve the very best , it would be a huge embarrassment for the entire state if the DIA would close, I'm sure the folks with deep pockets and people in general won't let this happen !
The arts are an important part of any MAJOR city and last time I check Metro Detroit still is a Major city.
Where is metro Detroit pride ?

**jt1** · May-18-12, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

But the majority of the comissioners voted for it, so that's good news. Let's focus now on getting the measure passed.

Good point. Overall it is good news and will be great news when the voters of all Counties pass it

**corktownyuppie** · May-18-12, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

Good point. Overall it is good news and will be great news when the voters of all Counties pass it

Cheers to that. Much [[if not most) of the Founder's Junior Council is from Oakland County. I think the political support will be there.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-18-12, 12:19 PM

The Toledo Museum of Art is free. A donation is accepted, but there is no one there guarding the door. Toledo is very much analogous to what we have only on a smaller scale, however they have an art museum that is phemonenal. It would be treasured in cities ten times its size.

I think what we have here is apathy. In the past Detroit borne much of the cost of operating the DIA as a service to the world. In later years we were lucky to have benefactors that help to keep it afloat and to expand it. With this expansion, the DIA has become more expensive of a place to operate. We can't ask benefactor to give any more than they already are.

JT1 brings up a good point about HCMA. I had not realized that they had pulled thier funding from some smaller projects in the City such as the Belle Isle Nature Zoo. I was aware that Chandler Park was on the chopping block several years back. It is however a bit hypocritical to ask others to fund the DIA then complain about Detroit funding other places if we are placing these into a regional context. Maybe HCMA can provide some dollars for the DIA, has this been broached? They certainly have been taking a lot more out then they have been putting in.

**Pam** · May-18-12, 12:34 PM

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/05/...o-support-dia/

L. Brooks supports the ballot proposal. That's progress isn't it?

**Danny** · May-18-12, 01:50 PM

Dave Bing on Oakland County's rant on Detroit's arts and humanities.

"The only arts and humanities that the people of Oakland County don't want is gang graffitis in their properties."

**Kevgoblue** · May-18-12, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Unless that parent is an alcoholic and you're getting awfully tired of giving your dad some money only to find out that he's spending it on booze. Or that parent is unemployed but only because he thinks it's ridiculous that his compensation should be commensurate with his production.

Bad analogy.A better one would be the parents are blue collar working class with a modest home. They took a 2nd mortgage out to pay for college. Later, a 3rd mortage to fund grad school. Now the parents are retired and in the last few years have had their pension benefits slashed and health care costs go up.

**Det_ard** · May-18-12, 02:28 PM

I'm OK with the DIA millage as long as there's no way for Detroit to screw up or loot the place. I know there's a board that runs it now, there just better be some iron-clad rules to keep it that way.

**poobert** · May-18-12, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

But the majority of the comissioners voted for it, so that's good news. Let's focus now on getting the measure passed.

Not just a majority, but a strong majority. If these percentages were an election, it would be a landslide.

As everyone here should know by now I am not Oakland County's biggest fan. We have to give credit where credit is due, though. They vote to put it on the ballot and then slam them for not having a unanimous vote? What the hell?

Personally, I think it will pass in Oakland County. If it doesn't, then we can give them all hell.

One has to admit there are very desirable communities in Oakland County. As a Detroiter there are very few places in this region I find desirable [[including places in Detroit) but I think Huntington Woods and Royal Oak are nice. I am sure there are other Woodward cities that I am not familiar with that are lovely too. Outside of the Pointes I can't really say I feel that way about really any suburbs around here. You couldn't pay me to live a place like Roseville, Allen Park, or Macomb Township. Barf barf barf.

I think Macomb is the one to worry about. Some commissioners were noisy in their opposition to even putting it on the ballot. And no matter how you feel or where you live, you have to admit that Macomb County is pretty sufficiently devoid of cultural institutions or institutes of higher learning.

Let's see what the voters decide before we criticize.

**Baselinepunk** · May-18-12, 07:36 PM

Heck, seeing how much we pay as a family per year; being able to pay 20 bucks through my property taxes -- which are a Federal / State tax credit -- I'll be saving a ton of cash on admission.

This is such a no-brainer.

**rb336** · May-18-12, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

The DIA is an important piece of the REGIONAL metro draw .... This would NEVER happen in "everyones" favorite city Chicago , or NYC ! The DIA is just as important and deserve the very best , it would be a huge embarrassment for the entire state if the DIA would close, I'm sure the folks with deep pockets and people in general won't let this happen !
The arts are an important part of any MAJOR city and last time I check Metro Detroit still is a Major city.
Where is metro Detroit pride ?

When I was in NY, and hanging out with the "artsy" types, most had been to the DIA at least once. A few had worked there in, i think, restorations It is an absolute treasure for the city, the region, the state and the art world in general.

**DLife** · May-18-12, 09:06 PM

Snyder has virtually eliminated the property tax credit for most homeowners this year...unless you are at the poverty level.

SteveJ · May-18-12, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Pam

But the majority of the comissioners voted for it, so that's good news. Let's focus now on getting the measure passed.

Honestly. Don't see the point of this thread.

**j to the jeremy** · May-18-12, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kevgoblue

Bad analogy.A better one would be the parents are blue collar working class with a modest home. They took a 2nd mortgage out to pay for college. Later, a 3rd mortage to fund grad school. Now the parents are retired and in the last few years have had their pension benefits slashed and health care costs go up.

Thank you.