Lack of shopping at Renaissance Center Wintergarden

**jpbollma** · May-08-12, 07:35 PM

I have stayed at the Ren Cen many times and always love it, however, I am mystified as to why the Wintergarden does not have more shopping. It is a beautiful glass area of the building overlooking the gorgeous river walk and in the center of everything. This building also has many thousands of guests and workers. If they don't have retail here, how do they expect retail in other areas downtown?

I would have expected perhaps stores like Apple, Aeropostle, Old Navy, H&M, Fashion Bug, Express ect. to be in this area. Many cities throughout the state with far less foot traffic support these same stores. Has anyone heard of any plans to try and better exploit this area? I would think it would have the benefit of "feeling safe" as well..

**Bham1982** · May-08-12, 07:47 PM

They already tried this, a bunch of times, and it never worked.

When GM took the RenCen they hired A-list retail experts like Hines and Taubman to fill the place. It didn't work. The few new stores were closed in short time.

When it was built, the RenCen had very upscale, Somerset-style merchants. It didn't work either, and the center soon transitioned to more everyday services [[dry cleaner, shoe repair, bank, drug store, coffee house). It seems that services work best, and the fashion retailers aren't going to work.

The layout is a huge issue, but it's been altered a number of times, and I don't think it's the main issue. Downtown "mall" retail rarely works in the U.S., and an isolated bunker of an office complex seems like a poor candidate for 7-day retail traffic.

**jpbollma** · May-08-12, 08:03 PM

ah okay, well I guess that answers the question then. It just seems shocking to me that all those workers and guests wouldn't want easy access to shopping.

**401don** · May-08-12, 08:12 PM

When GM built the Wintergarden they anticipated those hundreds of residential units we all hoped for along the riverfront would be built and generate walk-in traffic as well. Instead we are left with even more empty retail space in the RenCen. Between the architectural style of the entire complex and the unused retail it's incredible how much wasted space is there.

**DetroitPlanner** · May-08-12, 08:19 PM

One issue with the space is that outside of the first floor these are dead-end halls. If you can put eateries and taverns in it with seating on the walkways that may liven things up a bit, but how many places serving booze can you have in a corporate HQ? Maybe the excercise places can move into the upper floors leaving more space on the first floor for retail?

**black gold man** · May-08-12, 08:32 PM

I was working there when the Wintergarden was under construction
For the longest time we were in dark small areas with no light
no windows then one day we were introduced to Wintergarden
Working up high on the lift.

BGM

**gazhekwe** · May-08-12, 09:31 PM

Wintergarden is a beautiful space, too bad there is nothing to do there.

**iheartthed** · May-08-12, 10:00 PM

I doubt retail would work well in the Ren Cen even if downtown Detroit were booming. I work in an office complex in Manhattan that is similar to the Ren Cen, with similar limitations [[relatively isolated, 9 to 5 population), and it has similar trouble filling the retail space with anything other than restaurants.

**southen** · May-08-12, 10:14 PM

get residential on the east riverfront and i think things change a bit. the model in the lobby of the ren cen shows you what gm's plans were for the lots east of the building. im sure they had a lot of that in mind when doing the wintergarden.

**Joseph C. Krause** · May-09-12, 12:01 AM

The Wintergarden's retail space not only dead-ends on each floor at the South wall, but when you stand at the North end of the corridor to consider walking down the dead-end, the shop windows protrude out in such a way as to obscure what's behind it. I recall Pure Detroit's former location being at the end of one of those halls with empty storefronts ahead of it, so you would only see that it was there at moments when you could not walk directly to it, and, being at a dead-end, there was zero chance of walking by on accident.

I think the only customers this layout could stand a chance of serving would be residents who would memorize where everything was.

**Zacha341** · May-09-12, 06:32 AM

The perception of shopping in that building is still very daunting to me. Though at least the front access is much improved since they removed those hideous berms that flanked the building initially. But still it does not seem inviting: parking, complex layout, dead end dark hallways, circular, confusing access to the towers, or shops.

You never know if you are taking the straightforward approach to get to where you want or if you're taking the long/ wrong way. Even the CVS closes early so it's not inviting to me to go down there, wander about only to find the store closed or about to close. I have been to many events and fund raisers in the garden which were superb.

If I worked there I'd be more willing or compelled. Otherwise, no.

Is there a movie theater in the building? There was when it was the ren cen years ago.......

**DetroitPlanner** · May-09-12, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Is there a movie theater in the building? There was when it was the ren cen years ago.......

There has always been a movie theater in the RenCen.
http://www.gmrencen.com/happening/movietheaters.axis

**AGinthe313** · May-09-12, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

There has always been a movie theater in the RenCen.
http://www.gmrencen.com/happening/movietheaters.axis

I take my wife and son to the movie there quite often – especially during the winter months. We walk across the street, get on the people mover, and we’re there in a few minutes. The theater and the screens are smaller, but the convenience for us makes up for it!

**eastland** · May-09-12, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

There has always been a movie theater in the RenCen.
http://www.gmrencen.com/happening/movietheaters.axis

The theater was closed for several years in the 1990s I believe.

**mwilbert** · May-09-12, 07:59 AM

There is an intrinsic layout problem with the Ren Cen, but the problem of people not being seeing shops could be ameliorated with better signage. It seems to me that the main difficulty is that there are relatively few kind of viable retailer these days, and the subset of those that would make sense in the Wintergarden is even smaller.

**Lowell** · May-09-12, 08:24 AM

In a word the entire space in incomprehensible. Lack of sight lines is a big drawback. There is no way to see at a glance what is in there. From the outside you see nothing. Once inside you see only what is nearby and if it is on a level below you, you puzzle over how to get there. Informational kiosks are inadequate and likewise confusing. If you are driving parking is a mystery and you may or may not be comped by some businesses.

Wintergarden is the furthest away but in many ways a huge dead end. Its only salvation IMO would be in the opening of the border with a ferry landing there from Windsor. I think they would be better off converting its upper levels to residential or hotel rooms.

**stasu1213** · May-09-12, 10:06 AM

I disagree with the "retail will not work there" concept. I am glad that people such as Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske don't follow that concept. GM had hired a management company from Houston, Texas to manage the complex including the Winter Gardens. The management company had done a terrible job in managing the complex. The management company is no longer managing the complex. I was told by an employee who work in the Winter Garden that the new management company is looking to allow more retail to open in the RenCen including the winter garden. It is true that retail had not done so well in the RenCen during it's heyday. We must remember that the Winter Gardens didn't exist then either. I had noticed tourist or visitors coming into the Winter Gardens from the outside and automatically looking up at the different levels of empty storefronts. The same tourist will shop at stores if they were there when they look up admiring the layout of the Winter Gardens. Many shoppers would shop at Ann Taylors Loft, Lane Bryant, Dress Barn, or even a Men's Warehouse if those shops were to open in the WinterGardens. How are the retail stores doing in Peachtree in Atlanta?

**Bham1982** · May-09-12, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I disagree with the "retail will not work there" concept. I am glad that people such as Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske don't follow that concept. GM had hired a management company from Houston, Texas to manage the complex including the Winter Gardens. The management company had done a terrible job in managing the complex.

That 'management company from Houston' is Hines, which is one of the largest and most respected retail management firms on earth. They have successful lease-ups all over the globe.

Considering the site has never worked for retail, and has been extensively rebuilt for retail twice [[once in the late 80's and again under GM), I think it's fair to say that traditional "mall retail" isn't going to work in the RenCen

**iheartthed** · May-09-12, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I disagree with the "retail will not work there" concept. I am glad that people such as Dan Gilbert and Roger Penske don't follow that concept. GM had hired a management company from Houston, Texas to manage the complex including the Winter Gardens. The management company had done a terrible job in managing the complex. The management company is no longer managing the complex. I was told by an employee who work in the Winter Garden that the new management company is looking to allow more retail to open in the RenCen including the winter garden. It is true that retail had not done so well in the RenCen during it's heyday. We must remember that the Winter Gardens didn't exist then either. I had noticed tourist or visitors coming into the Winter Gardens from the outside and automatically looking up at the different levels of empty storefronts. The same tourist will shop at stores if they were there when they look up admiring the layout of the Winter Gardens. Many shoppers would shop at Ann Taylors Loft, Lane Bryant, Dress Barn, or even a Men's Warehouse if those shops were to open in the WinterGardens. How are the retail stores doing in Peachtree in Atlanta?

Detroit doesn't get anywhere near the level of tourism needed to support retail in the Ren Cen. If it did then yeah, retail could work there just like it works in Boston's Copley Center. But expecting 3,000 or so office workers to support a mall there is borderline silly. And without any other source of potential shoppers [[e.g. being near a transit hub) there isn't much hope that it could ever support it.

**stasu1213** · May-09-12, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

That 'management company from Houston' is Hines, which is one of the largest and most respected retail management firms on earth. They have successful lease-ups all over the globe.

Considering the site has never worked for retail, and has been extensively rebuilt for retail twice [[once in the late 80's and again under GM), I think it's fair to say that traditional "mall retail" isn't going to work in the RenCen

The Winter Gardens does not have to be a "traditional mall" if stores open in it. It still could have it's garden like setting with restaurants, gift shops, and the like. There is a great dining area with tables and chairs to add to the ambiance. Hallmark had once wanted to open in the WinterGardens only to be denied by Hines. I think that the Penobscot, First National, Compuware, and other buildings will have retail stores on there main floors in the future. If you want to call that a "mall concept" go ahead. I think that it will work especially for the Winter Gardens

**bailey** · May-09-12, 11:14 AM

Considering the site has never worked for retail, and has been extensively rebuilt for retail twice [[once in the late 80's and again under GM), I think it's fair to say that traditional "mall retail" isn't going to work in the RenCen

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Detroit doesn't get anywhere near the level of tourism needed to support retail in the Ren Cen. If it did then yeah, retail could work there just like it works in Boston's Copley Center. But expecting 3,000 or so office workers to support a mall there is borderline silly. And without any other source of potential shoppers [[e.g. being near a transit hub) there isn't much hope that it could ever support it.

The Wintergarden, the disaster that is that stupid parking deck and that abortion of a faux "chinatown", the failed residential, and to a greater extent the entire Ren Cen itself stands today as a testament to GMs 90s and 00's leadership's loss of focus on BUILDING CARS and instead played at being real estate developers.

Multiple GM execs in my family, and high up at the time of the move, were emphatic about how very few at GM wanted the move except for a cabal of execs that wanted a vanity project. Everyone who took a few minutes to look at the project could see it would be a failure. The plan was completely out of touch, unrealistic, relied on pie in the sky predictions and completely fake cost assumptions.

As a result, today, when I hear Matt Cullen talk about anything regarding M1, I just assume it's not true...or at best, if not outright false, based on false assumptions.

The move was justified by downplaying the reno costs, the ridiculously cheap cost of the RenCen, how consolidation savings, the residential build out and retail build out would subsidize the reno of the RenCen. [[Sort of like Bush claiming Iraq's oil money will pay for it's "liberation").

Anyone with half a brain and a passing familiarity with Detroit's problems and the Ren Cen's problems could see it would be a white elephant. Again, looking at you Mr. Cullen.

Also, if "consolodation" and "the GM building's obsolete systems badly in need of update" was the "real" driver of the move, none of the execs behind the move could explain how a move to the rencen made more financial sense than consolidation at the Tech Center [[you know...kinda like Chrysler and Ford). It was all about the optics of being in a "landmark". Again, this was the 90s...GM had lost like 40 billion dollars in 3 years when these discussions were happening.

It was pretty much microcosm of how badly GM was run under Smith and Wagoner.

And the result is exactly what was predicted. An empty and completely isolated shopping mall, a bland and bizarre working environment, no residential built, and billions spent needlessly.

YAY incompetence!

**iheartthed** · May-09-12, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

The Wintergarden, the disaster that is that stupid parking deck and that abortion of a faux "chinatown", the failed residential, and to a greater extent the entire Ren Cen itself stands today as a testament to GMs 90s and 00's leadership's loss of focus on BUILDING CARS and instead played at being real estate developers.

Multiple GM execs in my family, and high up at the time of the move, were emphatic about how very few at GM wanted the move except for a cabal of execs that wanted a vanity project. Everyone who took a few minutes to look at the project could see it would be a failure. The plan was completely out of touch, unrealistic, relied on pie in the sky predictions and completely fake cost assumptions.

As a result, today, when I hear Matt Cullen talk about anything regarding M1, I just assume it's not true...or at best, if not outright false, based on false assumptions.

The move was justified by downplaying the reno costs, the ridiculously cheap cost of the RenCen, how consolidation savings, the residential build out and retail build out would subsidize the reno of the RenCen. [[Sort of like Bush claiming Iraq's oil money will pay for it's "liberation").

Anyone with half a brain and a passing familiarity with Detroit's problems and the Ren Cen's problems could see it would be a white elephant. Again, looking at you Mr. Cullen.

Also, if "consolodation" and "the GM building's obsolete systems badly in need of update" was the "real" driver of the move, none of the execs behind the move could explain how a move to the rencen made more financial sense than consolidation at the Tech Center [[you know...kinda like Chrysler and Ford). It was all about the optics of being in a "landmark". Again, this was the 90s...GM had lost like 40 billion dollars in 3 years when these discussions were happening.

It was pretty much microcosm of how badly GM was run under Smith and Wagoner.

And the result is exactly what was predicted. An empty and completely isolated shopping mall, a bland and bizarre working environment, no residential built, and billions spent needlessly.

YAY incompetence!

From a shareholder standpoint, yeah, it was a big waste of money. From a civic/corporate citizen standpoint it's probably one of the few things they did right. I think the GM renovations did a hell of a lot to correct the blunders of the building's original design. Of all the things that GM did during the 90s and 00s, the Ren Cen was probably the company's most successful project... And I don't think the Ren Cen is a failure because it can't support retail. The Empire State Building doesn't support retail that well either.

**casscorridor** · May-09-12, 11:48 AM

I think the vacancies are a combination of the RenCen's management and Detroit's woes, but most of all with architecture and geometry. The RenCen is a maze to navigate and the architecture is rather brutal. This is very hard to fix, but I think the recent renovations have helped. But to be fair, there are many businesses inside such as CVS and the Cinema and the biggest Pot Belly I have ever seen. As far as retail shopping, architecture is a problem again because there are not spaces for anchor department stores so smaller footprint stores have a hard time... it's not a mall. That is why service-oriented stores do much better and cater to the employees in the building.

**nain rouge** · May-09-12, 11:56 AM

The RenCen is also in a poor location in terms of walking. Getting there from the main part of Downtown feels too much like leaving Downtown.

**Lowell** · May-09-12, 12:25 PM

Another problem, IMO, is that there is a lack of an attraction in the RenCen. Somehow I always felt that GM could have done something with its auto display area that would be both interesting [there's a novel concept for them] and would even help sell their cars. Perhaps build an environment out from that core with side activities, shops and cafes along the edges. Likewise the Wintergarden atrium does not have an inviting 'I'd like to hang out here' feel. The Starbucks is the only space that comes close to that with its leisurely pod balcony seating. Point of all this being… there is not a whole lot of a reason to go to the RenCen unless you have to do something specific.

The RiverWalk has greatly improved the riverside attraction-wise and has to have helped bring in foot traffic. But even that has a hard cold concrete feel and has its continuity disrupted by having a road between the river and buildings. One would think something could be done to attract travelers from the nearby cruise ship port but, then again, why on earth would anyone want to go inside? A compelling interior attraction is dearly needed.

Somehow I feel this place has great potential; it just hasn't had the right person to interpret it. I hope that day comes.