M-1 Opening It's Pockets To Get Some Transit

[dmike76]

http://www.freep.com/article/2012042...text|FRONTPAGE

[jpbollma]

I would love to see this happen.

[DTFellow]

Clearly, these business leaders are putting their money where their mouth is on this project. I think that if they are willing to put up the operating funds, and most of the construction funds, they must feel that this is such an important investment in Detroit's future as to require such a risk. Building a short railway will connect Downtown w/ Midtown and New Center, effectively making those places walking distance and loosening the grip of the parking operators on space. When you can park off Temple St. and ride the train downtown in minutes, the effective number of parking spots for "downtown" has gone through the roof.

[dmike76]

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

[Wesley Mouch]

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

Be careful, perfection is the enemy of the good.

I think everyone wants rail. But that might be beyond our means right now. This seems like a great first step -- especially if done in a way where it could be expanded. [[There's nothing more frustrating that having to switch trains.)

[Jason]

I think it's great that they're committing that money. I do hope that whatever would be built would be good though.

Also, the Free press needs to dedicate someone [[or someone new) to their maps. Their maps have roads that don't exist, and it seems like every map of theirs I see, something is mislabeled [[here the orange rectangle in the inset map is in the wrong spot).

[casscorridor]

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

Woodward rail [[M1 or DTOGS) was never meant for the purpose of suburbanite parking and shuttling. It is meant to provide frequent, reliable service to the most heavily used transit corridor in the city. Although the streetcar plan doesn't cover all of Woodward, it does cover the most dense, vibrant and walkable sections. It will be a huge boon on the surrounding neighborhoods. Regional transit will have a different form, which is currently proposed as Bus Rapid Transit. But BRT has serious drawbacks because it so slow unless it has its own bus way [[like in LA). Light-rail using existing rail right-of-ways seems more effective in delivering service to the suburbs into the city.

[dmike76]

I think it will be a boon to the surrounding neighborhoods and I'm all for that, especially since I plan on moving to the D in a couple of years. I'll still take this plan even though it's not ideal for what I'd like transit to be in SE Michigan.

[mikeg19]

I want to get behind this, I really do.....BUT I just can't shake the feeling that this is a slightly better version of the train to nowhere. I don't want street cars. I want rail. Rail that will run all the way to Pontiac connecting the Burbs and Downtown, eventually running down Michigan, Gratiot, and Grand River. As street cars, this will never go that far out. This to me isn't the long term regional solution. This will work well for everyone living on Woodward, Cass, John R in midtown, etc. But the people that come down for events from the 'burbs still have to drive 30 minutes and pay 20 bucks to park. I like the commitment but I question it's long term/regional functionality.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Mike. It'd be nice to see the rail lines "start" with them running up Michigan, Woodward, and Gratiot out to 8 mile at the least. But I think at this point, this project just needs to get its footing and get the initial line built from downtown to New Center. After that, it's anyone's guess how far or what other lines could potentially spur off of it. I think the biggest thing out of all of this is the commitment of M1 to cover operating costs for a decade. That is truly saying something. At the current rate Detroit is [[potentially) heading, this should be a very different place in ten years, and I believe in a positive way.

[canuck]

Be careful, perfection is the enemy of the good.

I think everyone wants rail. But that might be beyond our means right now. This seems like a great first step -- especially if done in a way where it could be expanded. [[There's nothing more frustrating that having to switch trains.)

I think it's more a question of whether Detroit can afford not to.

If you look at the folks behind this push for modern reliable transit, they all stand to benefit from this coherent investment. The city is vital to them, it is normal that people who own a big piece of the property pie in downtown and New Center would want to contribute by stabilizing a city that badly needs this.

Waiting any longer is foolish and counterproductive, and the funny thing is that business leaders will show politicians the way to a better city and hopefully a better metropolitan area.

[warsaw7]

http://www.freep.com/article/2012042...text|FRONTPAGE

Yawn! Wake me when they start to bring in the backhoes......

[BShea]

The M1 group doesn't quite have all its capital funding in place, and that operating subsidy isn't entirely covered yet, either ... just 80 percent of it. There's still a bit of work to be done on assembling financing, but M1 Prez Matt Cullen told me they're very confident of having it all eventually.

He also seemed VERY confident that we'll see a naming rights deal for the entire line [[like Cleveland's BRT line) that will pick up some of the funding. He didn't want to talk much about it, but my sense is a naming rights deal is in the works and isn't just a hypothetical ... which makes sense when you consider those involved. The WEBward Line? The Hot-&-Ready Line? The Penske Line? The Quicken Line? The Compuware Express?

My story on the M1 report: Link

[detmsp]

I am a bit concerned that the line could be too short to get much ridership. If it does have low ridership, those numbers will be used by anti-transit folks against any plans to expand it to a length where it actually becomes useful. I'm not convinced this will happen, but I am nervous since it's so short and also doesn't have much of a bus system feeding into it.

Also, I hope that M1 doesn't do what they originally had been planning to do by using streetcar tracks that won't support light rail cars. Having to tear this all out in 10 years to replace it with light rail would be a waste.

[Jason]

According to Mr. Shea's report the round trip is supposed to be 36 to 40 minutes, meaning to get from New Center to downtown would take 18-20 minutes. Which I think is way way way way too long.

According to their schedule, DDOT's 53 Woodward bus takes about 24 minutes for the same trip [[New Center to Downtown).

According to Google Transit, there's a SMART route which would take 17 minutes and another that would take 23 minutes. According to it it would take about 10 minutes to drive.


It seems pretty clear that that isn't fast enough and that it should be in a dedicated lane to speed it up.

[stasu1213]

I am a bit concerned that the line could be too short to get much ridership. If it does have low ridership, those numbers will be used by anti-transit folks against any plans to expand it to a length where it actually becomes useful. I'm not convinced this will happen, but I am nervous since it's so short and also doesn't have much of a bus system feeding into it.

Also, I hope that M1 doesn't do what they originally had been planning to do by using streetcar tracks that won't support light rail cars. Having to tear this all out in 10 years to replace it with light rail would be a waste.

The trip won't be too short if there are retail, restaurants, and other shops, and businesses that will line Woodward avenue on both sides of the street. Many opposers had thought that 8 miles were too short for light rail. I had disagreed. 8 miles is a long stretch to travel especially if Woodward is bustling with businesses from the river to 8 mile road. Take a trip to New York and drive eight miles north or south on Broadway and tell me how many shops, businesses, and retail would you encounter. Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

[casscorridor]

The trip won't be too short if there are retail, restaurants, and other shops, and businesses that will line Woodward avenue on both sides of the street. Many opposers had thought that 8 miles were too short for light rail. I had disagreed. 8 miles is a long stretch to travel especially if Woodward is bustling with businesses from the river to 8 mile road. Take a trip to New York and drive eight miles north or south on Broadway and tell me how many shops, businesses, and retail would you encounter. Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

Good point. If the three mile stretch is dense with lots of uses and destinations, it will be a success. I'd like to see a streetcar system for the very center of the city, with a light-rail or commuter rail system going out into the suburbs. This is what other cities are doing such as Seattle, Portland and DC.

[stasu1213]

Good point. If the three mile stretch is dense with lots of uses and destinations, it will be a success. I'd like to see a streetcar system for the very center of the city, with a light-rail or commuter rail system going out into the suburbs. This is what other cities are doing such as Seattle, Portland and DC.

I would even be satified with light rail running up and down Woodward to 8 mile road, rapid busses on Grand River, Gratiot, Michigan, and Jefferson, and regular busses on street such as Joy Road, Mack, the mile roads. We should have a rapid express bus that runs from downtown nonstop to the airport. A rapid bus or rail could travel crosstown on Warren Avenue

[Junkin4Life]

I would even be satified with light rail running up and down Woodward to 8 mile road, rapid busses on Grand River, Gratiot, Michigan, and Jefferson, and regular busses on street such as Joy Road, Mack, the mile roads. We should have a rapid express bus that runs from downtown nonstop to the airport. A rapid bus or rail could travel crosstown on Warren Avenue

Don't forget the rapid bus lines on Telegraph, I-94, I-96, M-10, & I-75

[nain rouge]

Travel down Las Vegas Blvd from Fremont Street to MGM, which is only 3 to 4 miles and tell me how many shops and retail had you encounter. I don't think that 3 to 4 miles would be too short for a rail line

3 miles is such a waste, even if Woodward's density continues to improve. The average person walks at a speed of 3.1 mph, and bikes at speed of 12.5 mph. 3 miles is not that big of a distance. Maybe high-speed rail would be nice if you need to get all the way from Grand Blvd to the financial district in the winter or something, but in that case couldn't you just take the bus? I'm sure we could significantly improve the bus service on that stretch of Woodward for way less than $5 million a year. It doesn't take a bus that long to go 3 miles, you know, especially if we did what Cleveland did and made some changes to how traffic is conducted so we could have "high-speed buses." Millions to shave off 5 minutes sounds a like a waste.

Unless this high-speed rail line reaches at least close to 8 mile, it's a waste. Preferably, it would go all the way to Pontiac. As it is, it looks like a sad attempt to check off another modern urban renewal trend from the list in Midtown/Downtown.

I know, I know - some people will say that this is the start to something bigger. But if you don't do it all at once, history shows that you usually won't get the rest, and you'll be stuck with another boondoggle.

[stasu1213]

3 miles is such a waste, even if Woodward's density continues to improve. The average person walks at a speed of 3.1 mph, and bikes at speed of 12.5 mph. 3 miles is not that big of a distance. Maybe high-speed rail would be nice if you need to get all the way from Grand Blvd to the financial district in the winter or something, but in that case couldn't you just take the bus? I'm sure we could significantly improve the bus service on that stretch of Woodward for way less than $5 million a year. It doesn't take a bus that long to go 3 miles, you know, especially if we did what Cleveland did and made some changes to how traffic is conducted so we could have "high-speed buses." Millions to shave off 5 minutes sounds a like a waste.

Unless this high-speed rail line reaches at least close to 8 mile, it's a waste. Preferably, it would go all the way to Pontiac. As it is, it looks like a sad attempt to check off another modern urban renewal trend from the list in Midtown/Downtown.

I know, I know - some people will say that this is the start to something bigger. But if you don't do it all at once, history shows that you usually won't get the rest, and you'll be stuck with another boondoggle.

This is why I had said that a trolley like system would do. I don't know why the People Mover didn't go to the New Center Area. The average person in Detroit doesn't walk three miles on a daily basis. Three miles may not seem to be much for me and you. To a person carrying bags, a senior citizen, a child, or a person walking on a snowy cold day, hot day, or rainy day, three miles is a long distance. I agree with you that the distance appear to be too short for any light rail. Smaller electric busses that are designated to the New Center Area from downtown would be better. Detroit once had busses that had made short trips

[ghettopalmetto]

It doesn't take a bus that long to go 3 miles, you know, especially if we did what Cleveland did and made some changes to how traffic is conducted so we could have "high-speed buses." Millions to shave off 5 minutes sounds a like a waste.

You're contradicting yourself here.

[ghettopalmetto]

I know, I know - some people will say that this is the start to something bigger. But if you don't do it all at once, history shows that you usually won't get the rest, and you'll be stuck with another boondoggle.

Here's a boondoggle you'll find interesting:

On March 29, 1976, the Washington Metro opened as a single 4.6 mile line with five stations.

[cpanagio]

Here's a boondoggle you'll find interesting:

On March 29, 1976, the Washington Metro opened as a single 4.6 mile line with five stations.

This was the first section of a pre-approved 100+ mile metro system and it was linked to surrounding states within a few years of opening. Detroit can barely approve a system with a grand total of 3 miles. I can understand how people believe that this will just be another people mover within 10 years.

[ghettopalmetto]

This was the first section of a pre-approved 100+ mile metro system and it was linked to surrounding states within a few years of opening. Detroit can barely approve a system with a grand total of 3 miles. I can understand how people believe that this will just be another people mover within 10 years.

SEMCOG has developed a regional transit plan. Adopt it. Implement it.

[cpanagio]

SEMCOG has developed a regional transit plan. Adopt it. Implement it.

I agree with you but there is a big difference between approved and a plan [[which is just proposals and recommendations).