Republicans' Replacement Healthcare Plan

[maxx]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...e=domesticNews

[It's rather limited.] "...The CBO found the plan would cut the deficit by $68 billion over 10 years, extend coverage to only 3 million uninsured and raise insurance rates for some, including those less healthy.By contrast, the CBO has said the Affordable Care Act would reduce the deficit by $132 billion through 2019..."

[rb336]

that kills me -- of course, we will hear nothing but bs from the repubs till they go away

[Crumbled_pavement]

that kills me

That's their point. You get sick, DIE! They feel you'd rather die an honorable death than be a worthless burden on society.

[ghettopalmetto]

It took the Republicans 3 years to come up with The John McCain Plan of 2008???

Yes, please give me a $2000 tax credit, when family coverage can easily run $10,000 a year.

Fuck these idiots.

[firstandten]

That's the Repubs response for all social policy type issues, give out vouchers or tax credits which never reflects the true cost of the service, be it health care or education. Yet they are real good at throwing stones at the folks who are really trying to help the middle class.

[oladub]

That's the Repubs response for all social policy type issues, give out vouchers or tax credits which never reflects the true cost of the service, be it health care or education. Yet they are real good at throwing stones at the folks who are really trying to help the middle class.

A better place to be arguing with Republicans would be at the State level where education and health care could be addressed. I think that Republicans, at the federal level, are all together too much like Democrats; doing far too many things to screw up the middle class. So many stones have been thrown at the middle class by alleged well meaning government office holders, I don't know where to start. Perhaps the interests and principle on the $16T national debt would be a good place to start; $5 Bush's in his 8 years and $5T Obama's in his 3.5 years. Talking about casting stones; that is an incredible millstone to be hanging on the necks of our young people. Then for Clinton to sign NAFTA and expand such programs under every subsequent president...or why not 'normalize' the status of 7m illegal aliens undercutting American wages in formerly middle class jobs like union meat processing plants and construction. It is hard to imagine how the middle class will survive such a stoning.

[ghettopalmetto]

A better place to be arguing with Republicans would be at the State level where education and health care could be addressed.

So why aren't the states doing it? Why do Southern [[i.e. Republican) states have far higher rates of obesity and lower educational attainment? Is that the federal government's fault?

No one is stopping any state from developing its educational or health care systems. We keep hearing about "states rights" from the right wing. It seems the only Right they want to have is the Right to Abdicate All Responsibility.

And after all, isn't Doing Nothing what "freedom" is all about?

[oladub]

ghettopalmetto: So why aren't the states doing it? Why do Southern [[i.e. Republican) states have far higher rates of obesity and lower educational attainment? Is that the federal government's fault?

No one is stopping any state from developing its educational or health care systems. We keep hearing about "states rights" from the right wing. It seems the only Right they want to have is the Right to Abdicate All Responsibility.

You get what you pay for. Some states are doing it and do support public education better than the national average. Massachusetts has had Romneycare for awhile. Vermont is trying to institute a single payer plan but the Obamacare people are making that difficult. Oregon has legislated a right to die law. Etc..

Wisconsin has more than its share of obesity too but that is partly a trade in for enjoying beer, brats, deep fried curds, and cheese on everything. However, if people in the south or Wisconsin wanted to eat fruit, fresh salads, and organic granola like more people in Oregon do, nothing is stopping them from doing so. It don't think it is the federal government's fault.

And after all, isn't Doing Nothing what "freedom" is all about?

Sometimes it is. Taoists are on this.

[firstandten]

The title of thread is the Repubs replacement Health care plan. What I would like to see is the Repubs on the board give us the pro's and con's of the plan. We can then talk about it.

Its real easy to throw bombs at Obamacare but when alternatives are asked, the Repubs get real quiet.

[rb336]

or their "alternative" does less and saves even less

[coracle]

The title of thread is the Repubs replacement Health care plan. What I would like to see is the Repubs on the board give us the pro's and con's of the plan. We can then talk about it.

Its real easy to throw bombs at Obamacare but when alternatives are asked, the Repubs get real quiet.

I don't know what's in the Obama "plan" because like the people that voted for it I haven't read the 2000+ pages - so nobody really knows what's in it; and I haven't concerned myself with any "replacement" plan because I've never needed anybody to subsidize my family's health. Like all socialist health plans Obama's is a redistribution of health from those that can afford it to those that can't. I think a Repub plan would work on the basis of the survival of the fittest;[[a bit like Darwin's scientific principle) if you can't afford it tough shit. Obama's plan will be based on the survival and extension of the weakest and non contributors to anything [[his voters) at the expense of the fittest. I could be wrong but somehow I don't think so. We'll know for sure when the "rationing" and long lines start. I can tell you from experience that once its "free" you'll be amazed at how many "sick" people there are and how many new people will fall sick and what they'll claim to be included.

[firstandten]

I don't know what's in the Obama "plan" because like the people that voted for it I haven't read the 2000+ pages - so nobody really knows what's in it; and I haven't concerned myself with any "replacement" plan because I've never needed anybody to subsidize my family's health. Like all socialist health plans Obama's is a redistribution of health from those that can afford it to those that can't. I think a Repub plan would work on the basis of the survival of the fittest;[[a bit like Darwin's scientific principle) if you can't afford it tough shit. Obama's plan will be based on the survival and extension of the weakest and non contributors to anything [[his voters) at the expense of the fittest. I could be wrong but somehow I don't think so. We'll know for sure when the "rationing" and long lines start. I can tell you from experience that once its "free" you'll be amazed at how many "sick" people there are and how many new people will fall sick and what they'll claim to be included.

As far as not knowing what's in the plan, you have cliff note versions all over the internet so you can easily find out whats in the Presidents plan. Or just contact Romney's people after all, its the prototype for the ACA.

Also this plan, is a free market plan, it is not a socialist plan,the plan is not free, so this rationing business is all in fox news mind[[I'm assuming thats where you got it from).

However the area, I would want to challenge your thinking is this social Darwinism concept you and the Repubs have about health care. I know its cool to say you don't need any help when it comes to health care, that you are a producer and those other folks [[Obama supporters) are non-producers and if you can't afford health care... tough.

However, unless you own or control the factors of production [[land,labor and capital) you are simply renting.... your job, your small business etc.
Because of that, the rug can be pulled out from under you at any time and in a nano second you will become the non-producing deadbeat that you talk about.

However, unlike being able to downsize into a smaller car, or smaller house when the rug gets pulled out from under you, cancer isn't going to downsize itself into the flu. So if that situation suddently becomes you, can you really hold on to that social darwinistic attitude.

If you can, then more power to you.

[oladub]

As far as not knowing what's in the plan, you have cliff note versions all over the internet so you can easily find out whats in the Presidents plan. Or just contact Romney's people after all, its the prototype for the ACA.

Also this plan, is a free market plan, it is not a socialist plan,the plan is not free, so this rationing business is all in fox news mind[[I'm assuming thats where you got it from).

However the area, I would want to challenge your thinking is this social Darwinism concept you and the Repubs have about health care. I know its cool to say you don't need any help when it comes to health care, that you are a producer and those other folks [[Obama supporters) are non-producers and if you can't afford health care... tough.

However, unless you own or control the factors of production [[land,labor and capital) you are simply renting.... your job, your small business etc.
Because of that, the rug can be pulled out from under you at any time and in a nano second you will become the non-producing deadbeat that you talk about.

However, unlike being able to downsize into a smaller car, or smaller house when the rug gets pulled out from under you, cancer isn't going to downsize itself into the flu. So if that situation suddently becomes you, can you really hold on to that social darwinistic attitude.

If you can, then more power to you.

firstandten, According to the CBO, the cost of Obamacare will be $1.76T over its first ten years so it isn't 'free' either. I'm not sure if that even included the cost of higher insurance premiums to pay for more things and it certainly doesn't include the costs of jobs moved overseas to take advantage of less health care regulations.

I already posted twice about the Republican plan. Your question assumes certain things I don't assume such as does the 10th Amendment even allow the Republican plan, that more good than bad will come out of Obamacare, that we should keep all the lawyers, insurance companies, and pharmaceuticals fat at the trough with either plan. As I previously mentioned, Vermont is trying to create its own single payer plan and the Obamacare people are interfering with Vermont's effort insisting that the highly compromised [["its the best he could get") Obamacare plan be included in any Vermont plan. Bernie Sanders and other Vermont elected representatives are trying to get a waiver.
__________________________________________________

Off topic but last week Monsanto threatened Vermont with a lawsuit for wanting to label GMO foods. Coincidence, or otherwise, former Monsanto VP and head lobbyist Michael Taylor is the Deputy Commissioner for the FDA in the Obama administration -the board tasked with regulating Taylor’s own industry.

[coracle]

If our ancestors had subscribed to your cautionary socialist way of thinking firstandten we would never have opened up the West because one of them might have got a cold on the way and weren't "covered" except by a wagon. I do hope however that should you ever become ill, the worst you ever get is the flu.

[ghettopalmetto]

firstandten, According to the CBO, the cost of Obamacare will be $1.76T over its first ten years so it isn't 'free' either. I'm not sure if that even included the cost of higher insurance premiums to pay for more things and it certainly doesn't include the costs of jobs moved overseas to take advantage of less health care regulations.

Actually, as has been stated here previously, one of the reasons American automakers lost market share was because car prices had to cover the costs of outrageous health insurance premiums. The Japanese and Germans don't have to worry about such silly things.

[oladub]

Actually, as has been stated here previously, one of the reasons American automakers lost market share was because car prices had to cover the costs of outrageous health insurance premiums. The Japanese and Germans don't have to worry about such silly things.

I think you are confusing legacy costs with health care costs. Legacy costs have a lot to do with promised pensions. Since the foreign companies started their US operations here later and are less likely to have union pension promises to fulfill, their cars can be produced here cheaper than big three cars. However, foreign car manufacturers operating in the US have had no particular advantage providing health care for their US workers except, maybe, less unions. As you unintentionally point out, both domestic and foreign manufacturers will have an advantage manufacturing overseas where national health car plans are billed to tax payers instead of car companies. If, for instance, Korean taxpayers have to pay for Hyundai workers' health benefits, that amounts to subsidizing Hyundais sold in the US compared with Hayundais assembled here requiring Hyundai to pay for Obamacare.

[firstandten]

I repeat ! What is the Repubs health care alternative and why is it better [[or worst ) than Obamacare ?

[oladub]

I repeat ! What is the Repubs health care alternative and why is it better [[or worst ) than Obamacare ?

I'm so vain, I must think this thread is about me [[♩♫♬). I answered your question in posts #6, 8, and 13 so you must be addressing everyone else [[?). Coracle also answered and you replied to him in your post #12.

[firstandten]

I'm so vain, I must think this thread is about me [[♩♫♬). I answered your question in posts #6, 8, and 13 so you must be addressing everyone else [[?). Coracle also answered and you replied to him in your post #12.

Oladub, I re-reviewed the posts that you mention, and I see comments on the National debt, NAFTA, Wisconsin and its obesity problem, wondering if the constitution will even allow the Repub plan, illegal aliens, Vermont wants its own single payer plan but the Obama admininstration is stopping them etc.

Coracle came closest when he said the plan would basically be a social darwinism type of live-get sick-if you don't have the money you die type of plan.

No details, now actually I know a couple like selling insurance policies across state lines and malpractice reform, but I want to hear why that would be better than what we have.

Now if you are a social darwin type of guy like coracle then we are dealing with different premises and a discussion of this subject would be difficult if not impossible. But if we are dealing with the premise that most if not all people should be covered how would you do it if you are a republican ?

On second thought... maybe thats a flawed premise on my behalf !

[ghettopalmetto]

I think you are confusing legacy costs with health care costs. Legacy costs have a lot to do with promised pensions.

Now that you mention it, automakers in Japan, Germany, and Korea don't have to pay for pensions OR healthcare.

See you at the bottom of the economic pile, Oladub!

[oladub]

Now that you mention it, automakers in Japan, Germany, and Korea don't have to pay for pensions OR healthcare.

See you at the bottom of the economic pile, Oladub!

But they do have to pay for Obamacare in the US which is why is one disadvantage of producing any car in the US. Foreign car manufacturers haven't put so much into pensions in this country because they didn't invite the UAW into their plants. I'm not saying that is good. It just gives them the advantage you mentioned, confusing it with health care costs, in post #12.

[ghettopalmetto]

But they do have to pay for Obamacare in the US which is why is one disadvantage of producing any car in the US.

What on God's Green Earth are you talking about?

[oladub]

firstandten, How is Vermont having a single payer plan, which I mentioned twice, more Darwinian than Obamacare? The wording of the 10th Amendment, mentioned in post #13, pretty much rules out the federal government from taking over 1/6 of the economy because broad health care programs, be they Republican or Democratic, are not delegated powers of the federal government. End of story. Either come up with something like Romneycare or Vermont's effort to institute a single payer plan or amend the Constitution to allow the federal government to have Obamacare. We have Badgercare, a limited State program, in Wisconsin for poor people and you have never heard me badmouth it.

As far as other things I mentioned like National debt, NAFTA, obesity, and the hiring of illegal aliens, those are just things that will contribute to costs or the failure of our middle class which is essential to affording anything from cash payments to single payer plans.

[ghettopalmetto]

Either come up with something like Romneycare or Vermont's effort to institute a single payer plan or amend the Constitution to allow the federal government to have Obamacare.

Obamacare, as you like to call it, IS Romneycare. First hatched by Nixon, later embellished by the Heritage Foundation, and attacked by the modern GOP because they never had the balls to implement it themselves.

When you come out attacking ideas of Nixon and The Heritage Foundation as socialist, you end up looking like a kook.

[oladub]

Obamacare, as you like to call it, IS Romneycare. First hatched by Nixon, later embellished by the Heritage Foundation, and attacked by the modern GOP because they never had the balls to implement it themselves.

When you come out attacking ideas of Nixon and The Heritage Foundation as socialist, you end up looking like a kook.

gp, You're altogether too into calling names tonight. please point out where I attacked ideas of Nixon as a socialist to retain some of your credibility. I never mentioned the Heritage Foundation. You did. Romney care is not Obamacare. They are similar but one is run by a State and the other by the Federal government which is a huge difference to me. I would characterize Nixon as having corporatist tendencies, as sort of an early neocon, but not as a socialist were you to have asked.