Retail Design Option for Hudson site or Foxtown District

**gthomas** · April-15-12, 06:34 PM

**ghettopalmetto** · April-15-12, 07:54 PM

Blech. You could plop one of those things anywhere--location doesn't really matter when the entire thing is turned inward.

The relationship to the street sucks, and the architecture is POS, to put it kindly. This is just another bland suburban mall grafted onto an urban street grid.

One of these decades, the developers will learn how to build cities.

**downtownguy** · April-15-12, 08:01 PM

Care to elaborate on your photos, gthomas? But I agree with ghettopalmer. This reminds me of the fortress mentality of the Ren Cen.

**stinkytofu** · April-15-12, 08:02 PM

Is there any evidence whatsoever that those designs are even being remotely considered? If not, I'll add that they should put this on site...

**DetroitPlanner** · April-15-12, 08:05 PM

That's Taubman's new mall in downtown Salt Lake. Did you notice the integration of transit?

This was largely based on Horton Plaza in San Diego. Horton Plaza integrated the old with the new and was able to save the gaslight district as well as incorporate historical Balboa theatre. It has been around for 25+ years and is very successful. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Horton...,0.004324&z=18

**detroitbob** · April-15-12, 08:18 PM

Well, in SLC there was a remaining retail enviroment to buid on, enhance, and we don't have that. If 1206 Woodward is the starting point of a retail. il a development happens it is going to have to be vertical.

**douglasm** · April-15-12, 08:31 PM

And there's the rub. Non shopping center retail has to grow organically. The increase in population base downtown will help, as will increased office development [[although not as much as one would think), and I'm inclined to think that in order for a major development to go into the Hudson's site, a retail core has to redevelop along Woodward and/or Washington Blvd. for any major development to be viable.

**canuck** · April-15-12, 09:11 PM

I like Horton Plaza in San Diego, I was there in 1990 ad I was impressed. I dont think that all malls are the same by the way. These ones have an open air quality that relates to their environment. I think you have to agree that Detroit was a major retail center for a long time, and as such, a mall would replace Hudson's in an imaginative way if done right. I definitely hope that alongside this development, other smart designs would restore retail grandeur to a small stretch of Woodward.

The idea of a mall seems artificial and outmoded but I think that it would serve a purpose.

Montreal has a lot of malls downtown but the competition forces them to be somewhat different. There are plans to build a bigger Ogilvy dept store and add a hotel/condo deal on a whole city block. Ogilvy is the oldest dept store in the city [[1866) and is smaller than Eaton's, Simpsons, The Bay, Dupuis Freres were. Over the years; Eaton's, Simpsons and Dupuis all folded while Ogilvy held on. Many malls were built around the dept stores and the malls all survived. The oldest dates back to 1963 and is doing well at Place Ville-Marie.

The funny thing is Ogilvy's is close to a metro station but is not integrated while all the other big stores all were connected directly to the underground.

**Lowell** · April-15-12, 11:39 PM

Does the first shot above remind anyone else of Trapper's Alley?

Perhaps the waterway could reprise the Savoyard Creek.

**GOAT** · April-16-12, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lowell

Does the first shot above remind anyone else of Trapper's Alley?

Perhaps the waterway could reprise the Savoyard Creek.

Lowell. I was thinking...what does this look similar to? You're right. Not exactly of course but I do see the resemblance [[except for the blandness of the beige colour everywhere).

Personally, I like this. Better than what is there now and certainly better than any other suggestion.

**Gistok** · April-16-12, 10:31 AM

I too like this... it is not bad when compared to some of the sterile malls we have here [[Lakeside, Fairlane, 12 Oaks).

One other outdoor mall that is nice is THE GROVE near downtown Los Angeles. It is only a 600,000 sq. ft. street mall that has an early 20th century [[Art Deco like) feel to it... on a human scale I guess is a better way to describe it... the large domed building with a clock in the dome is the Abecrombie & Fitch store...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thegrove.jpg

Even Country Club Plaza, the worlds first shopping area dedicated to automobile traffic is light years ahead of the big malls with acres of parking around it, that we find dying around the country today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_Club_Plaza

Perhaps we can learn something from these places in how to design an urban retail area [[besides lower Woodward and Washington Blvd)... I know some of you find the architecture kitsch or pastiche, but it's better than a lot of the sterility found in many of the malls.

**Scottathew** · April-16-12, 10:46 AM

Woodward doesn't need a self-contained mall, it needs a strong, shop filled, street-wall.

It's not really a true-outdoor mall unless you can bring your purse-dog and it needs space for Land Rover parking.

**BasementBeat** · April-16-12, 12:05 PM

Damn; before I clicked this thread I was thinking it could be mock ups of a proposed design.

But I have to agree with 48091 - Woodward would benefit from less self-contained structures. Look at how people react and enjoy seeing crowds of people on the streets when a special event is in Detroit...

edit- "The Grove" image posted Gistok actually looks pretty darn nice.

**Detroitnerd** · April-16-12, 12:20 PM

There is a bias in local design against sharing any energy with other businesses. I can imagine the people behind a development complaining, Ilitch-style, "Why should I share all this money I'm investing with these OTHER businesses? I'm putting up the money! I should get all of the rewards!"

As a result, developments are designed inward, a la Greektown Casino, to head off potential synergy.

Never mind that sharing the energy among business owners benefits everybody. No, we refuse to acknowledge that here. And that attitude is really holding us back.

**Gistok** · April-16-12, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by BasementBeat

Damn; before I clicked this thread I was thinking it could be mock ups of a proposed design.

But I have to agree with 48091 - Woodward would benefit from less self-contained structures. Look at how people react and enjoy seeing crowds of people on the streets when a special event is in Detroit... [[with a touch of Main Street Disneyland thrown in)...

edit- "The Grove" image posted Gistok actually looks pretty darn nice.

Thanks, but The Grove image I posted was supposed to be the Wiki article and other images of the place. It does have a certain urban feel to it... almost Greektown "Monroe Ave." like in its' intimacy....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gro...Farmers_Market

**ghettopalmetto** · April-16-12, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Thanks, but The Grove image I posted was supposed to be the Wiki article and other images of the place. It does have a certain urban feel to it... almost Greektown "Monroe Ave." like in its' intimacy....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gro...Farmers_Market

While The Grove looks better than most of these new Potemkin villages popping up all over the country, there are quite a few significant negatives about it.

1. 600,000 sf is a LOT of retail space. It is, in effect, a regional shopping mall. I don't care how many cheaply-built, over-priced apartments you put above the stores: a few hundred tenants can't support that much retail.

2. Since all the property is owned by one entity, including the "streets", that means there is, legally, no public space in such a development. The landlord can make rules as he sees fit. That means teenagers, people wearing the "wrong" clothes, Shakey Jakes, hippie drum circles--you have to leave. You don't like it, tough shit. Your "town center" has been sold to the highest bidder.

3. Product mix. Despite the faux-traditional building forms, same developer = same product mix. Same bullshit you can find in any Schaumburg.

4. Uniform architecture. By having a single owner, all the buildings are designed by the same architect and look, well, the same. This is uninteresting. We've become incredibly talented at adopting Soviet design principles.

5. Going back to #2, these types of Potemkin villages RARELY include any sort of public buildings or other civic infrastructure. Why build space for a library when you can lease it to Bar Louie?

**Wheels** · April-16-12, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

these types of Potemkin villages RARELY include any sort of public buildings or other civic infrastructure. Why build space for a library when you can lease it to Bar Louie?

???????

This is one building site in a large city. There is a library on the next block? If you want warkability why do you need a street wall? How can a mall with stores and people busseling around be a Potemkin Village? The mall could help repair the current Potemkin Village rite across the street with it's pretty street wall and nothing inside! That is a Potemkin Village created for the super bowl. Nothing more than a Hollywood set.

**Detroitdave** · April-16-12, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

While The Grove looks better than most of these new Potemkin villages popping up all over the country, there are quite a few significant negatives about it.

1. 600,000 sf is a LOT of retail space. It is, in effect, a regional shopping mall. I don't care how many cheaply-built, over-priced apartments you put above the stores: a few hundred tenants can't support that much retail.

2. Since all the property is owned by one entity, including the "streets", that means there is, legally, no public space in such a development. The landlord can make rules as he sees fit. That means teenagers, people wearing the "wrong" clothes, Shakey Jakes, hippie drum circles--you have to leave. You don't like it, tough shit. Your "town center" has been sold to the highest bidder.

3. Product mix. Despite the faux-traditional building forms, same developer = same product mix. Same bullshit you can find in any Schaumburg.

4. Uniform architecture. By having a single owner, all the buildings are designed by the same architect and look, well, the same. This is uninteresting. We've become incredibly talented at adopting Soviet design principles.

5. Going back to #2, these types of Potemkin villages RARELY include any sort of public buildings or other civic infrastructure. Why build space for a library when you can lease it to Bar Louie?

I'm from LA and remember what was there before the Grove, First off the Grove was one of the first "new" open air/Lifestyle center/ malls, It's right behind CBS and right next to The farmers market. The area was own by the Gillmore Family. A race track was on the site a LONG time ago, and the Gillmore family had a bank and I think a toy store?, also it sits on land that has a TON of oil under still today !
#2 When they built the Grove it's just blocks form The Beverly Center . a very High end mall built by [[Michigan)Taubman the same folks that did Fairlane/Lakeside/Twelve Oaks I think ?,so BC has that same feel , but much higher end and 8 floors 5/6 are parking more info here ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Center [[BTW BC ALSO sits on a huge oil field ) check out the back of the Mall on the San vicetne side ,so when they were building The Grove they did a TOTAL redo of BC.
#3 not 3 ,miles away is Century City Mall, ANOTHER high end Mall that also ,
see here ,http://www.westfield.com/centurycity
also just got a big redo.
#4 Beverly Hills is Right next to CCM, not 1/2 mile away , I don't have to tell you about the shopping in BH.
BTW each of the above mention malls has a Apple Store ! and Macy's and Gap and 3 Cheesecake Factories and a Grand Luxe [[high end CCF).
On top of all of that they built Hollywood and Highland , see here , http://www.hollywoodandhighland.com/
so my point is the retail options are many , not too many cities can touch LA, NYC yes , that's about it , Chicago is ok , but can't come close to LA, living in LA one is OVERWHELMED with shopping , and you find the same stores at each location
I guess money loves more money and shopping !
back to my point ,I digressed LOL,
I think Detroit should do something on the lines on NYC or chicago more street shopping , keep it more street freindly .
Oh and BTW I remeber when they buiilt HP in San Deigo, it was pretty cool , crazy shapes and colors , gemmicky ,but the best thing is they kept The gas lamp district .
In closing I was chatting with a buddy last night and BIG things are coming Downtown, My buddy's company, are going to try to do something very sexy ala Vegas/LA, something Detroit hasn't seen yet . To get the 20 somethings really excited .
Something way sexier and higher end and exciting than what's in RO.

If all goes well it will make as big of a "splash" as the Brodrick Tower, they are thinking late 2013/2014, I got a sneak peek at the plans , looks REALLY hot !
Don't count Detroit out yet , and lot of the "right" people are paying attention to Detroit.

**canuck** · April-16-12, 06:26 PM

I agree with ghettopalmetto that capitalism looks alot like communism when corporate brands are so ubiquitous and the sameness leads to lack of choice.

I still think that a well designed open ended mall could act as an anchor for more street retail around it. The problem is that if all-out capitalism dictates the shape our cities take, the outcome is dire. Detroit is fragile in more ways than one and all out capitalism that tries to eliminate competition by securing a massive retail space is bound to be negative. So cooperation has to happen between retailers and developers to create a healthy bustling environment.

Any design to revivify downtown Detroit should encompass the street retail component and an open ended mall. I mean open in the sense that it really has a maximum access to the street as well as being self contained. The surrounding streets should be injected with small businesses or at least the existing ones should be helped along and enhanced. Adding cultural stuff like chamber orchestras,
art exhibits promoting DIA or MOCA shows would bring multilateral benefits.

The downtown would then regain the central position that it deserves, and act to disseminate ideas, not just products, and tie in the suburbs in a purposeful way, I fink.

**stasu1213** · April-16-12, 08:07 PM

I like a "to the sidewalk row of storefront concept" Shopping that is pushed back from the sidewalk into a "mall" breaks the flow of pedestrial trafic.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-16-12, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I like a "to the sidewalk row of storefront concept" Shopping that is pushed back from the sidewalk into a "mall" breaks the flow of pedestrial trafic.

You mean something horrible like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleri...io_Emanuele_II

**ghettopalmetto** · April-16-12, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You mean something horrible like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleri...io_Emanuele_II

Unfortunately, that's not what developers in the United States are building--American zoning officials stopped requiring dignity a long time ago. We only construct cartoon replicas of buildings now.

Can someone slap giant "Cheesecake Factory" and "Champps" logos on that damned thing?

**Gistok** · April-16-12, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You mean something horrible like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galleri...io_Emanuele_II

Nice place in the heart of Milan, DP.... we do have some nice places, like the Guardian Building Arcade, and the 4 story one in the David Whitney Building. Even next to the David Whitney Building, the Himmelhoch Building [[IIRC)... has a pass thru from Woodward to Washington Blvd. Something like Ann Arbor's Nickel Arcade would look nice there as well.

Now granted we need street shopping first, since the rest won't work if we don't get street traffic. Just look at the RenCen.

**hudkina** · April-17-12, 01:16 AM

The point of building something of this scale on the Hudson's site would be to generate the type of traffic that would entice other businesses to open along Woodward. Woodward is better suited for restaurants [[there's ample room for tons of outdoor seating), so its better to tuck most of the mall brands onto the Hudson's site to leave room for the restaurants. In any case, the Hudson's site is relatively small, so it's not like this could even be a massive mall.

What I would do is put a dozen or so stores in the 1,200 to 12,000 sq. ft. range on the first floor. There would be a sort of open-air zig zag through the center of the site to act as the "mall". On the 2nd and 3rd floors I'd put a 2-story "City Target" with about 80,000 sq. ft. on the one half and another "anchor" with about 60,000 sq. ft. Something along the lines of Best Buy or a Kohl's. Above the Target I'd have maybe a boutique hotel. Something along the lines of 150 rooms in the five or six story range. On the other side I'd put about 10 stories of apartments.

All together, that would only be about 200,000 sq. ft. of retail space. And while people may say the demographics aren't quite there, Target Corp. has stated that they're looking for about 50,000 people to live within 2 miles of its urban stores. Detroit currently falls just shy of that number [[with around 45,000 people) but as time goes on, that number will easily surpass 50,000. The presence of upwards of 100,000 people on any given day doesn't hurt either.

BTW, since I'm dreaming here, I'd move the People Mover station from the Compuware garage to this development and then build a skybridge to the Compuware garage via the Compuware Building [[which would also have direct access to this development). I'd also get rid of the station by the YMCA.

**Gistok** · April-17-12, 02:23 AM

Hudkina... the one problem with your idea is to move the PM station. The Cadillac Center Station [[as it is known, for a never built shopping center)... contains the best of the artwork in any PM station. It contains a huge number of Pewabic Pottery tiles. Those tiles were produced for a never built Stroh's company building back in the 1930s. And those tiles were in storage for about 1/2 century until they were donated to the PM artwork. So those tiles are a historic treasure, and not easily removed.