City officials should seriously consider a curfew

**firstandten** · April-14-12, 12:49 AM

With the summer months coming I would hope DPD would either implement a strict curfew on our minors or if a curfew law is on the books enforce it strongly. B'ham AL is doing a similar law. However what I like about what B'ham is doing is that they have a parental responsiblity component that seems to be shaking people up.

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2012/04/...nd_up_par.html

**DetroitTeacher** · April-14-12, 06:56 AM

I agree with having some sort of curfew law and enforcing it AND having the parents held responsible when their kids break it. Suburbs have laws such as this, why can't Detroit? They can initially issue court appearance tickets and if the kids/parents don't show then it gets more serious. Or, take the kids to a holding area and make the parents come and pick them up for violating curfew. If my kid made me do that JUST ONCE, I'd be furious and it wouldn't happen again!

Most of my students don't have a curfew from their parents and stay out until all hours. They are tired at school and don't perform as well as they could. I'd like to see it enforced year round.

**BrushStart** · April-14-12, 07:49 AM

Definitely should be a curfew for minors and it should be enforced. Every summer I see teens wandering about after dusk. There's absolutely nothing positive for them to be doing at those hours- they can't go to bars or clubs and probably aren't patronizing any restaurants.

Just last night, I saw two kids about 15 or 16 years old acting out around 11pm and both were wearing colors. DPD should send them home where they belong.

Look, I hated the curfew law when I was a kid, but I can say with complete sincerity that anything I did after 9 or 10pm was not for the better.

**Lowell** · April-14-12, 09:02 AM

"It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your kids are?" Anyone remember that line.

I understand the concerns here but I find myself reluctant to offer laws to others that I didn't have to endure. Here are some things to consider.

Is this to just for Detroit kids or for all kids in the metro and / or state? Is this law to be based on any scientific evidence that shows significant correlation between lack of curfew and higher mischief?

Do we need to be tying up already strapped law enforcement resources booking otherwise good kids who may get stuck out after curfew, thus diverting them from chasing down the really bad guys?

IMO we have all the laws we need. If some is out late [or early] and breaks them, arrest them and go after their parents for damages if need be. Otherwise we start building rap sheets on kids for victimless offenses.

**Danny** · April-14-12, 09:13 AM

Yes, a curfew for Detroit Kids under the age of 17 is great ideal to keep them out of streets and out of gang activities and lower violent crime. Let's take this plan to city council.

SteveJ · April-14-12, 09:36 AM

Definitely Detroit kids. The city has a big problem especially in the summer. Nothing good can come out of a teenager running around at midnight. He needs to be home.

**313WX** · April-14-12, 10:00 AM

I actually wouldn't be against a National Curfew at all.

The only exception to the rule is when the person who's outside after the curfew can prove they're attending work or school.

**Ray1936** · April-14-12, 10:45 AM

A police department so short-staffed that it can't properly respond to armed robberies or burglaries in progress couldn't give a rat's ass less about checking for minors on the street after 10 p.m.

**Scottathew** · April-14-12, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

A police department so short-staffed that it can't properly respond to armed robberies or burglaries in progress couldn't give a rat's ass less about checking for minors on the street after 10 p.m.

I agree that a curfew would be a good idea. However, I also agree with Ray. Also, another thing is to consider is that lawless people do not obey laws, so the trouble makers will still make trouble.

**HazenPingree** · April-14-12, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

"It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your kids are?" Anyone remember that line.

I understand the concerns here but I find myself reluctant to offer laws to others that I didn't have to endure. Here are some things to consider.

Is this to just for Detroit kids or for all kids in the metro and / or state? Is this law to be based on any scientific evidence that shows significant correlation between lack of curfew and higher mischief?

Do we need to be tying up already strapped law enforcement resources booking otherwise good kids who may get stuck out after curfew, thus diverting them from chasing down the really bad guys?

IMO we have all the laws we need. If some is out late [or early] and breaks them, arrest them and go after their parents for damages if need be. Otherwise we start building rap sheets on kids for victimless offenses.

I don't know if I'm for or against a curfew, but I do know that alot of the muggings and stickups around my neighborhood seem to be perpetrated by groups of 14-18 year old boys with pistols. A curfew might help curb that, though it does seem pretty draconian.

**DTFellow** · April-14-12, 12:27 PM

Hazen, you just hit the primary benefit of a curfew, keeping people off the street who while not necessarily doing anything wrong now, might have a reason to commit a crime or be criminalized in the future. By the time a robbery, assault, or burglary is in progress, the police [[and community) are already too late.

Prevention and opportunity are much more humane than criminalization and punishment.

While I agree that our police have better things to do than harass teens, if by harassing teens they don't have to jail teens in the future, it'll be worth it.

**Lowell** · April-14-12, 12:45 PM

I have trouble with laws built around what someone 'might' do rather that what someone did. It is like making a law prohibiting possession of a car that can go beyond the speed limit.

We see the results of this with the failed drug possession laws. People are arrested only for breaking a law based on what they might do. There is no other law broken and there is no victim.

This leads a scofflaw culture and disrespect for law enforcement which becomes viewed as unnecessarily oppressive.

This is parental issue and shoving that responsibility onto law enforcement, who has no resources for it, is a waste of taxes.

**firstandten** · April-14-12, 01:22 PM

Basically what you are doing is taking away the opportunity for teens especially in Detroit to hang out at the gas station or party store after dark. They may not be doing anything, but the possibility of muggings and carjackings do increase after dark and when a teen is around his buddies.

What you are also doing is shifting the parental burden back onto the parent and away from the police dept. It may be thru fines and possible imprisonment but that seems what people respond to. Back in the day my parents and other parents had a strict rule. When the street lights come on you better either be in the house or on the front porch. Those days of course are very much over [[you're lucky if the street lights even work), parents are shifting too much of their burden of raising children onto society and not being accountable for their children which is affecting society in general in a negative way.

While I agree that it would tough on the police, its better to have a few detectives out giving curfew tickets now rather than those few detectives trying to solve a murder from one of these minors down the road

**internet_pseudopod** · April-14-12, 03:30 PM

What happened to the curfew law that was already on the books? When I was that age I knew quite a few people that were picked up and harassed for curfew.

**Parkguy** · April-14-12, 03:49 PM

Here's a link to the city curfew ordinance:
http://library.municode.com/HTML/106...VI_DIV2CU.html

**poobert** · April-14-12, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by internet_pseudopod

What happened to the curfew law that was already on the books? When I was that age I knew quite a few people that were picked up and harassed for curfew.

Where have all of you been?

Sec. 33-3-11. - Presence of minors on public streets, playgrounds, and other public places prohibited during certain times.

It is unlawful for a minor to be on a public street, sidewalk, playground, vacant lot, or other unsupervised public place, during the following restricted times:

[[1)
For minors age fifteen [[15) and under:
a.
During standard time: from 8:00 p.m. through 6:00 a.m.; and
b.
During daylight savings time: from 10:00 p.m. through 6:00 a.m.
[[2)
For minors ages sixteen [[16) and seventeen [[17):
a.
During standard time: from 10:00 p.m. through 6:00 a.m., except Fridays and Saturdays: from 11:00 p.m. through 6:00 a.m.
b.
During daylight savings time: from 11:00 p.m. through 6:00 a.m.

There is a curfew. Just like everything in Detroit, it isn't enforced. DPD is phenomenal at not focusing on prevention but instead holding press conferences after the fact. Instead of getting kids off the street, they'll cruise right on by and wait till somebody gets killed.

Code/blight enforcement is another big one. Detroit could not only be cleaner, but make some money off fines, and disorder and filth [[broken windows theory) leads to crime. The irony is that Detroit codes are quite stringent, but as we all know you can do whatever you want - grill on your front porch, throw garbage out your window, fix shit cars on your lawn, chain your pit bull to a cinder block, cover your roof with a blue tarp - ANYTHING GOES HERE!

If Detroit would actually enforce the laws and ordinances on the books - or at least make an effort to - it would be a great place.

**antongast** · April-14-12, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

disorder and filth [[broken windows theory) leads to crime.

Adding the words "broken windows theory" to an otherwise unsubstantiated claim doesn't make it automatically true. Just saying.

**Wheels** · April-14-12, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Code/blight enforcement is another big one. Detroit could not only be cleaner, but make some money off fines, and disorder and filth [[broken windows theory) leads to crime. The irony is that Detroit codes are quite stringent, but as we all know you can do whatever you want - grill on your front porch, throw garbage out your window, fix shit cars on your lawn, chain your pit bull to a cinder block, cover your roof with a blue tarp - ANYTHING GOES HERE!

If Detroit would actually enforce the laws and ordinances on the books - or at least make an effort to - it would be a great place.

In theory this sounds great.

In reality who are you going to fine?

In the majority of cases you are referring to they are either living off of some sort of aid funding or illegal income.

Who are you going to fine? They will just laugh at you.

If you cut their aid you will have the liberals in an uproar.

It's the same issue with going after the parents. How are you going to fine or discipline a single mother with nothing? That is where most of the bad eggs are coming from IMHO.

**canuck** · April-14-12, 05:18 PM

Does this Birmingham curfew have anything to do with the city's insolvency?
Maybe the idea that police and other emergency services are tight gave them the perfect opportunity to toughen up. I hope Detroit doesnt follow suit.

**firstandten** · April-14-12, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Does this Birmingham curfew have anything to do with the city's insolvency?
Maybe the idea that police and other emergency services are tight gave them the perfect opportunity to toughen up. I hope Detroit doesnt follow suit.

I dont think so, this started back in 08 when there was a rash of teenage crime in that city.

What makes this situation different is that while the parents blew off the curfew letting there kids ignore it, the city is holding the parents responsible.
with a $ 500 fine for the first offense [[I see where the city could make some serious money) and for continue offenses court appearences as well as a six month jail term. The judge could also allow the parent to do "hard labor" for public works. Parents don't seem to like it but its been in place since 08.

**firstandten** · April-14-12, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

It's the same issue with going after the parents. How are you going to fine or discipline a single mother with nothing? That is where most of the bad eggs are coming from IMHO.

Here's how you do it. In court after the single mother cries poor, the judge works out a payment plan for her with the understanding that if the agreement is not upheld she is subject to jail. You'll see then just how fast she puts her kids in check

**Wheels** · April-14-12, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by firstandten

Here's how you do it. In court after the single mother cries poor, the judge works out a payment plan for her with the understanding that if the agreement is not upheld she is subject to jail. You'll see then just how fast she puts her kids in check

So she go's to jail and you have 8 kid's you have to shelter. Probably good for the kids but you will need more shelters and a larger budget. You are talking about a small any of kids with no direction whatsoever. It has taken multiple generations of poverty to get here. The answer wont be simple

**firstandten** · April-14-12, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

So she go's to jail and you have 8 kid's you have to shelter. Probably good for the kids but you will need more shelters and a larger budget. You are talking about a small any of kids with no direction whatsoever. It has taken multiple generations of poverty to get here. The answer wont be simple

true, not simple but one needs to start somewhere.

When the bulk of the parenting burden falls upon our institutions rather than the parents themselves then we have a problem.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-14-12, 08:26 PM

Kudos to those that know there is a curfew. I can recall growing up we would be leery of any car coming down the street as it could be the police. I had a couple of minor incidents where they told me to go home after reminding me that there is a curfew. What has changed are two things. Many parents either don't care, or they will stick up for thier babies. Secondly, the cops have better things to do as teens are not the major cause of trouble, but they do seem to find it more often then most.

**kraig** · April-15-12, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

So she go's to jail and you have 8 kid's you have to shelter. Probably good for the kids but you will need more shelters and a larger budget. You are talking about a small any of kids with no direction whatsoever. It has taken multiple generations of poverty to get here. The answer wont be simple

"Multiple generations of poverty'? Staying out late isn't an issue of economics for young people. Kids like to hang out with their friends, that's all.

When I was kid growing up in Detroit, I hung out past the designated curfew with my friends. There was no issue of being at risk for committing crimes because it was late because we weren't criminals and weren't looking to commit crimes.

We all knew that the curfew was only enforced in Hart Plaza or Greektown during the summer weekends and only in the neighborhoods during devil's night and halloween. Which is what would happen if the police tried to enforce it now.