Are there ANY examples of how State Takeovers actually "helped" anyone?

**313hero** · April-03-12, 12:20 PM

State took over DPS, we see what that got us. State took over Pontiac, we see what that got us. The State took over Highland Park, etc, etc. They all seem to be worse off than before. Thats why I get so tired of people saying "the State wants to help, why dont they just let them" Well with their track record why should we want their "help". Someone please explain.

**Scottathew** · April-03-12, 12:29 PM

You seem to be opposed to the cuts that have to be made.

The state's job isn't to make rainbows and sunshine happen everyday, the state steps in to balance the budget, typically by making massive cuts.

If these cities and school districts want to have the services and wasteful spending at their current levels maintained, they need to raise taxes.

Simple principle here: Balance your budget on your own, or have the state do it for you.

Want local control? Want to have lots of expensive services? Then simply balance your budget and pay for it.

**renf** · April-03-12, 12:37 PM

I do not know of any clear examples of where state take-over brought positive
results. When an emergency manager is appointed, his or her basic job is to
cut costs by reducing employment, wages, and services. He or she cannot
impose new taxes and, by Michigan law, must pay pensions and the bondholders. It is a terrible job.
Harrisburgh, Pennsylvania is in very much worse financial shape than Detroit. The state bankruptcy court appointed an emergency financial manager last
December. He quit on Friday. Apparently, many on the city's payroll "slow-walked" him. City employees and services would fare poorly in a bankruptcy but the bond holders might also suffer a bit.

**gazhekwe** · April-03-12, 12:46 PM

Joyce Parker, Ecorse Emergency Manager, Credits Public Act 4 With City's Turnaround

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

**Detroitnerd** · April-03-12, 12:55 PM

Seems in my experience that the state takeovers leave cities and institutions without black majorities in better shape.

Hamtramck and Ecorse? Seemed to do well by them, I suppose.

But DPS? Left them deeper in dept and operating at a defecit.

Highland Park? Was going OK until the governor appointed political bottom-feeder Art Blackwell, who promptly jacked up his salary retroactively and let the city fall apart.

Is this a huge generalization based on a few instances? Yes. Is it racism at work? I don't know. But as a resident of majority-black Detroit, I don't know how thankful I should be for the "help" I'm about to get.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by 313hero

State took over DPS, we see what that got us. State took over Pontiac, we see what that got us. The State took over Highland Park, etc, etc. They all seem to be worse off than before. Thats why I get so tired of people saying "the State wants to help, why dont they just let them" Well with their track record why should we want their "help". Someone please explain.

The problem is inherent in the question. Instead of asking, "Why should we want their help?" let's look at "What happens if we turn their help down?"

When a diabetic is suffering from a gangrenous wound, they may have to amputate their foot. But as much as no one wants to amputate their foot...it's much worse to amputate your entire leg, so better to just get it done already.

**Detroitnerd** · April-03-12, 01:27 PM

It's not quite that simple. Detroit has wound up the way it is both through millions of individual decisions, many of those by people who simply chose to take their wealth and community spirit and leave, and by major policy decisions at all levels of government which affected those decisions [[freeways, GI Bill, military decentralization, outlawing de jure segregation). All those decisions have cemented who the "winners" are in this society, and who the "losers" are. Detroit is one of the "losers." Detroit has borne the brunt of the pain.

Now imagine it from the standpoint of Detroit. After all the "winners" turned their back on you, took the money and ran, considered you a political prize for a bunch of increasingly corrupt bottom-feeders but said nothing until it became unavoidable and even then dithered ...

... now they want to "help" you ... with more major decisions of policy.

Or, to use another metaphor, just a little operation...

No, I think I understand the fears and frustrations at work here. The winners are coming ... to take what's left.

**Novine** · April-03-12, 01:39 PM

Ecorse? Seriously? They went bankrupt in the late 80s. Like Flint and others, they've been through multiple rounds of financial emergencies. Hardly a poster child for how oversight by the state and the courts have helped Michigan cities.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

It's not quite that simple. Detroit has wound up the way it is both through millions of individual decisions, many of those by people who simply chose to take their wealth and community spirit and leave, and by major policy decisions at all levels of government which affected those decisions [[freeways, GI Bill, military decentralization, outlawing de jure segregation). All those decisions have cemented who the "winners" are in this society, and who the "losers" are. Detroit is one of the "losers." Detroit has borne the brunt of the pain.

Now imagine it from the standpoint of Detroit. After all the "winners" turned their back on you, took the money and ran, considered you a political prize for a bunch of increasingly corrupt bottom-feeders but said nothing until it became unavoidable and even then dithered ...

... now they want to "help" you ... with more major decisions of policy.

Or, to use another metaphor, just a little operation...

No, I think I understand the fears and frustrations at work here.

Well, I understand and can empathize with all you're saying. I do understand the fears and frustrations, too...though I think they're misguided. Everyone is afraid of what happens if the state comes in. Why aren't people afraid of what happens if the state *doesn't* come in?

and then....

The winners are coming ... to take what's left.

...I try to keep an open mind on this forum; I just don't understand exactly what you mean by this? Who will take anything? What will they take? And where are they going to take it to?

**drjeff** · April-03-12, 03:03 PM

For an EM to be successful the EM has to be competent. I'm not very confident about a competent EM being hired for Detroit. But I also have zero confidence that the current city government can fix what ails the city.

**gazhekwe** · April-03-12, 03:13 PM

I heard an interview with Joyce Parker, Ecorse EM the other day. While Ecorse is not huge, they are having some success bringing down the debt after years of mismanagement. Ecorse has been struggling many years, and with some of the same issues, rising costs, downward spiraling revenue, failure to manage change. The interesting thing about the interview was that, while Ms. Parker is confident she will leave the city in good shape, she did not have anything much to say about how Ecorse will continue after her time is done. She outlined the plans made to reduce the debt and how they were succeeding with the plans, but for leaving the city in other hands once she is gone, she said she hopes they will have the vision to continue in a responsible fashion. I get from that, there is no guarantee, no matter how Detroit addresses its issues, it is only as good as the person leading can make it.

**Detroitnerd** · April-03-12, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

I try to keep an open mind on this forum; I just don't understand exactly what you mean by this? Who will take anything? What will they take? And where are they going to take it to?

And I'm just trying to channel a majority of my fellow citizens. But I understand their fears and worries enough, I think, to imagine what they fear: Powerful players, self-interested suburban leaders and city-hatin' outstate interests using Detroit as a playground of ideological-drive privatization, selling off the water system, even unincorporating the city's land in a fire sale that leaves the people of Detroit with an even poorer government beholden to undemocratic institutions such as authorities and corporations.

And you look to the past and see how these stories have played out, since the destruction of Paradise Valley through Poletown down to today and, you have to admit, they might not feel that way if the metro area's leading lights haven't had such a poor track record ...

Now is that an obstacle to financial health or a seasoned understanding of history? Depends on your standpoint, I guess. But it's real and should be acknowledged going forward. I know if I were appointed manager of Detroit, I wouldn't try to lecture Detroiters ... I'd apologize to them for the sins of the past and get to work ...

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I know if I were appointed manager of Detroit, I wouldn't try to lecture Detroiters ... I'd apologize to them for the sins of the past and get to work ...

Well, I can agree with that. I'm hearing that there are past histories and past hurts that have gone unacknowledged. I strongly advocate that those voices be heard and considered. And then...yes...I would be sensitive to those experiences and do my best to get to work.

**313hero** · April-03-12, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

You seem to be opposed to the cuts that have to be made.

The state's job isn't to make rainbows and sunshine happen everyday, the state steps in to balance the budget, typically by making massive cuts.

If these cities and school districts want to have the services and wasteful spending at their current levels maintained, they need to raise taxes.

Simple principle here: Balance your budget on your own, or have the state do it for you.

Want local control? Want to have lots of expensive services? Then simply balance your budget and pay for it.

I dont know what I said to make it "seem" that I'm opposed to cuts, cause I'm not. I live in reality. I know that alot of things MUST change. However my ? was/is is Has the State shown that they can "help". Yes our clowncil and Mayor are not _______. But the State hasnt shown any of us that they are able to "help". I'm not opposed to making EVERY employee a contract employee and make them pay for their own health care etc. I'm not opposed to that @ all. I'm not opposed to alot of things that will help the city move forward. However I am opposed to loosing my democratic right to vote, or even my republican right to vote lol. I like Snyder to be honest, so far, so good. Except when it comes to State Takeovers. Like I said earlier I live in reality and know that nothing will fix Detroits problems overnight. The problem I see is a lack of vision, lack of inginuity. Detroiters scream all day and night about our assets but no one wants to make our "assets" generate us money or at least pay for themselves. Its no reason why Belle Isle is still free. Its no reason they havnt converted the City Airport into a drag strip on the weekends. No reason why a messed up burned out neighborhood shouldnt be converted to a paint ball warzone and call it urban warfare. No reason the empty parts of the river front be converted to a fair ground. etc. They need to start using our assets as what they are assets. Whats the point of having alot of "jewels" and not shining them up or @ least putting them on display. Make Money Detroit. get to making money. The Mayor nor CC has came up w/ ANYTHING to make money besides raising taxes, and longer meter hours. WTF. so frustrating.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

And I'm just trying to channel a majority of my fellow citizens. But I understand their fears and worries enough, I think, to imagine what they fear: Powerful players, self-interested suburban leaders and city-hatin' outstate interests using Detroit as a playground of ideological-drive privatization, selling off the water system, even unincorporating the city's land in a fire sale that leaves the people of Detroit with an even poorer government beholden to undemocratic institutions such as authorities and corporations.

And you look to the past and see how these stories have played out, since the destruction of Paradise Valley through Poletown down to today and, you have to admit, they might not feel that way if the metro area's leading lights haven't had such a poor track record ...

Now is that an obstacle to financial health or a seasoned understanding of history? Depends on your standpoint, I guess. But it's real and should be acknowledged going forward. I know if I were appointed manager of Detroit, I wouldn't try to lecture Detroiters ... I'd apologize to them for the sins of the past and get to work ...

And, by the way, what you've put forth is something that has been noticeably absent from public dialogue. If the Shabazz's of the world could hold off on the arson threats and speak articulately to the points which you brought up, then I think you'd find more sympathetic ears.

**skyl4rk** · April-03-12, 03:44 PM

Joe Harris in Benton Harbor seems to have turned it around and moving back in the right direction.

http://www.heraldpalladium.com/artic...ws/9307414.txt

**313hero** · April-03-12, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by skyl4rk

Joe Harris in Benton Harbor seems to have turned it around and moving back in the right direction.

http://www.heraldpalladium.com/artic...ws/9307414.txt

Thats like comparing banannas to cherries. BH only has 10,000 residents. If they cant get it right thats more than a damn shame. p.s. it really hasnt got that much better for its citizens @ all

**coracle** · April-03-12, 03:58 PM

Whether its an EM, bankruptcy or any type of financial arrangement it will only serve as another delay in Detroit's continuing demise. Nothing will change as long as crime and the Democratic right to vote of the citizens remains.

**gazhekwe** · April-03-12, 04:02 PM

See, that is the problem with the EM, it is all about the money. Get rid of the debt, provide only what you can pay for. Who prioritizes the needs?

**EastsideAl** · April-03-12, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by coracle

Whether its an EM, bankruptcy or any type of financial arrangement it will only serve as another delay in Detroit's continuing demise. Nothing will change as long as crime and the Democratic right to vote of the citizens remains.

And people wonder why we don't trust outsiders to have our best interests in mind. For every Shabazz there's at least two or more of this sort of cracker George Wallace wannabe asshole out there in the rest of the state.

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

See, that is the problem with the EM, it is all about the money. Get rid of the debt, provide only what you can pay for. Who prioritizes the needs?

Well the problem is that before money can come in, you have to demonstrate to outsiders that you're not just throwing good money after bad. Have any of you actually ever worked with investors? When you're asking someone to part with his money, her money, or his/her organization's money...they need to be reassured that it's being put to the use they want. Right now Detroit can't say that. After the EM [[or bankruptcy court) cuts, cuts, cuts...then FINALLY, you can look investors and other benefactors in the eye and say, "Our books are balanced. We are making sound financial decisions. It's safe to come in."

That will happen. Hell, had we started this process 20 years ago, it would've happened a long time ago.

**BagAJellyDonuts** · April-03-12, 06:06 PM

With an honor roll from city council including Alonzo Bates, Martha Reeves, Monica Conyers and so many others, it's not that these idiots are being usurped, it's why did it take so long?

**Wheels** · April-03-12, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Hell, had we started this process 20 years ago, it would've happened a long time ago.

Hmmmmm.... No Kwame No Dept. That doe's make sense

**Wesley Mouch** · April-03-12, 06:52 PM

And I'll add Hamtramck to the list. State's guy Schimmel cleaned up the finances. He did his job. He wasn't liked. He did his job.

So to pull things back to the thread, there are three cities in Michigan that the State has successfully helped that we've listed so far.

Benton Harbor
Ecorse
Hamtramck

**corktownyuppie** · April-03-12, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

And people wonder why we don't trust outsiders to have our best interests in mind. For every Shabazz there's at least two or more of this sort of cracker George Wallace wannabe asshole out there in the rest of the state.

I understand where you're coming from. This is one reason why I try to emphasize "what" we need to do, rather than "who" will do it.
But that aside for a moment, let's say that the state appointed a Detroit native to be the EM. Would that quell some of the fears?

My position is that more people know what need to be done than not. The problem is that it's impossible to do that without the political shelter of emergency law.