Wattrick: Sorry Detroit, but Grand Rapids is better than you

bartock · March-23-12, 08:44 AM

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...nd_rapids.html

I think he deliberately left "downtown" out of the title in order to light a bigger match, but whatever. Some people on this board seem to have strong opinions of the writer.

**Gannon** · March-23-12, 09:25 AM

Nothing he hasn't deserved.

**Flintoid** · March-23-12, 09:47 AM

Wattrick is my favorite Detroit area columnist and as much as I hate to agree with him here, I do. However, the potential in Detroit exceeds anything Grand Rapids will ever be capable of. The Devos family has been doing in Grand Rapids what Dan Gilbert is starting here for decades. But we should note that what Gilbert is doing will fundamentally transform downtown, not to mention what Sue Mosey is doing in Midtown, the collection of people transforming Corktown, what Faye Nelson is doing on the RiverFront, etc. Detroit has started seeing Grand-Rapids style development in the last few years and it does not show signs of relenting. 5 to 10 years from now Michigan will have two amazing cities to visit and live in. Detroit and Grand Rapids are both vital to the state, and the success of both is a boon for us all.

**Bham1982** · March-23-12, 09:52 AM

Grand Rapids has a nice downtown, but is really a small city. Not comparable in any way to Detroit. It feels like 10% the size.

And, contrary to popular belief, there are some hard-core bombed out hoods in GR. I was surprised, but drive south of downtown, all the way to the suburbs [[Kentwood area), and there's some serious economic decline.

**iheartthed** · March-23-12, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Flintoid

However, the potential in Detroit exceeds anything Grand Rapids will ever be capable of.

IAWTC.

I have never been to Grand Rapids, but from what I have read I get the sense that their regional planning is more centralized. Detroit would benefit immensely from a bit of centralized planning.

**corktownyuppie** · March-23-12, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

IAWTC.

I have never been to Grand Rapids, but from what I have read I get the sense that their regional planning is more centralized. Detroit would benefit immensely from a bit of centralized planning.

I totally agree. I think it's realistic to say that Grand Rapids does many things better than Detroit has. It's also realistic to say that Grand Rapids didn't have all the challenges we've had. It's also realistic to say that Detroit Metro shot itself in the foot and missed lots of opportunities. And even Detroit's City Council [[maybe reluctantly) is saying that the way we do business needs to change...and that is should've changed a long time ago.

Rather than waste time with who is better than whom...why don't we ask "What can we learn from Grand Rapids?"

And some centralized planning and regional cooperation would go a long, long way. The Cobo and Detroit Zoo models have been successful. What if we spread that model to Belle Isle. And God forbid, transit.

Forget who is better than what, or who's fault something happened. It's that my team vs. your team mentality that -- while totally valid and natural given what we've been through -- we must move past.

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 11:15 AM

Well from a performing arts perspective [[granted this is a narrow topic, but any true city worthy of being great must have it)....

Detroit....
Opera.... Detroit Opera House.
Ballet..... Detroit Opera House, Music Hall.
Symphony..... Orchestra Hall.
Broadway Shows.... Fox, Fisher, Masonic, Music Hall, Gem.
Other music/misc. venues.... Fillmore, Gem, Bonstelle, Hillberry, DIA Theatre, etc...
Very large venues: Ford Field, Comerica Park, JLA.

Grand Rapids....

Opera, Symphony, Broadway.... DeVos Performance Hall... one size fits all... DeVos Performance Hall....
http://www.experiencegr.com/listings...nuID=385&hit=1
Large venue.... Van Andel Arena

Now I'm not saying Grand Rapids is not a beautiful city.... but when it comes to performance venues and culture... well they're nowhere in the same league as Detroit.

As I said... this is just 1 comparison... there are many... some of which Grand Rapids does beat Detroit.

But perhaps Mr. Wattrick needs to go back and rethink his logic...

**downtownguy** · March-23-12, 11:43 AM

"While Dan Gilbert’s downtown revitalization efforts are mocked
locally
and
nationally
because he’s remodeled iconic buildings like a 14-year-old girl decorated her bedroom in 1997"

What building is he referring to here? The Madison?

**Detroitnerd** · March-23-12, 11:48 AM

Grand Rapids' advantage? I think one of them i that it is a more or less racially homogeneous place where taxpayers don't have to worry about their money going to "them" in the city. I wonder how Detroit's suburbs would feel about Detroit if it were suddenly a majority-Dutch population of 711,000...

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

"While Dan Gilbert’s downtown revitalization efforts are mocked
locally
and
nationally
because he’s remodeled iconic buildings like a 14-year-old girl decorated her bedroom in 1997"

What building is he referring to here? The Madison?

The only thing I can think of in that regard is someone mentioned adding color to the Chase Tower...

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Grand Rapids' advantage? I think one of them i that it is a more or less racially homogeneous place where taxpayers don't have to worry about their money going to "them" in the city. I wonder how Detroit's suburbs would feel about Detroit if it were suddenly a majority-Dutch population of 711,000...

Exactly... sort of the "Minneapolis of Michigan"...

**antongast** · March-23-12, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

"While Dan Gilbert’s downtown revitalization efforts are mocked
locally
and
nationally
because he’s remodeled iconic buildings like a 14-year-old girl decorated her bedroom in 1997"

What building is he referring to here? The Madison?

Probably the NBD cheesegrater. The Madison renovation has drawn just as much flak, but I wouldn't call it an "iconic" building.

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 11:53 AM

Beat you to the post.... lol.... but the Madison Building renovations... haven't they all been internal? I mean back when they razed the Auditorium of the Madison Theatre about 9 years ago... didn't they already do the external building changes to the office block portion?

**antongast** · March-23-12, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Beat you to the post.... lol.... but the Madison Building renovations... haven't they all been internal? I mean back when they razed the Auditorium of the Madison Theatre about 9 years ago... didn't they already do the external building changes to the office block portion?

Yes, they've been internal. That's what Wattrick is talking about, interior renovations. 14-year-old girls in 1997 weren't decorating the facades of their parents' houses.

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Yes, they've been internal. That's what Wattrick is talking about, interior renovations. 14-year-old girls in 1997 weren't decorating the facades of their parents' houses.

The designer of the Cheese Grater could have been 14.... didn't take a lot of forethought to come up with that idea...

**rb336** · March-23-12, 12:26 PM

what is the "cheese grater"? I'm not impressed with the new architecture in GR at all. the art museum reminds me of the ugly wing of the DIA

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

what is the "cheese grater"? I'm not impressed with the new architecture in GR at all. the art museum reminds me of the ugly wing of the DIA

It's the nickname for the Chase Tower... because the windows are positioned like the openings on a hand held cheese grater...

**SaintMe** · March-23-12, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

"While Dan Gilbert’s downtown revitalization efforts are mocked
locally
and
nationally
because he’s remodeled iconic buildings like a 14-year-old girl decorated her bedroom in 1997"

What building is he referring to here? The Madison?

He's talking about this shit at Chase Tower, and his whole article is spot on.

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Pics from this article
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/des...-detroit/1546/

**casscorridor** · March-23-12, 01:13 PM

I would have to agree with a some points Wattrick makes, because they are simple facts -- such as Grand Rapids having more continuous blocks of business storefronts, safer to walk around, etc... But this is relatively easy to overcome for Detroit. As stated by Flintoid, Detroit's potential is far greater than Grand Rapids. The potential is nothing short of huge, because there are so many blocks open for redevelopment, so many landmark buildings being rehabbed or waiting to be rehabbed, and a major metropolitan area and international crossing that can feed way more potential residents/visitors into the city proper. Not to mention all the fame of Detroit, the urban "gritty" "edgy" aesthetic and proximity to Canada. Greater Downtown, although many many times the size GR's downtown, is still pretty small in size [[3x3 miles) and could easily be redeveloped to its fullest extent. I think this is a slow process that needs to sped up because although a city is its neighborhoods, Detroit lacks the sort of urban density of major cities such as NYC, Chicago or Philadelphia, and consists of mostly single-family homes outside greater Downtown. The urban option must be developed Downtown before those periphery bedroom communities can also thrive.

**aoife** · March-23-12, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Exactly... sort of the "Minneapolis of Michigan"...

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. I lived in GR for most of my life, and it is no more a dutch majority than Detroit is. They all moved out to the suburbs years ago. The city is incredibly diverse. I would wager they are more diverse than Detroit if we are simply looking beyond "black and white." I get why people have that opinion though- they never bothered to learn otherwise. Like people who claim Detroit is one big Thunderdome based on its reputation from the 1980s.

**Detroitnerd** · March-23-12, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by aoife

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. I lived in GR for most of my life, and it is no more a dutch majority than Detroit is. They all moved out to the suburbs years ago. The city is incredibly diverse. I would wager they are more diverse than Detroit if we are simply looking beyond "black and white." I get why people have that opinion though- they never bothered to learn otherwise. Like people who claim Detroit is one big Thunderdome based on its reputation from the 1980s.

aoife, apologies to you. I was trying to be humorous, and the idea of a Detroit full of blond-haired Dutchmen was irresistible. But you must admit, as far as black and white, Grand Rapids is demographically similar to Minneapolis.

Grand Rapids
64.6 % white
20.9% black

Minneapolis
63.8 % white
18.6 % black

Just sayin'...

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by aoife

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. I lived in GR for most of my life, and it is no more a dutch majority than Detroit is. They all moved out to the suburbs years ago. The city is incredibly diverse. I would wager they are more diverse than Detroit if we are simply looking beyond "black and white." I get why people have that opinion though- they never bothered to learn otherwise. Like people who claim Detroit is one big Thunderdome based on its reputation from the 1980s.

As DN said, I was going after the general demographics.... and as for Detroit's reputation in that era [[1980s)... the neighborhoods were actually in much much better condition [[with a FEW exceptions) than they are today... The mortgage meltdown is quickly decimating some of Detroit's more stable neighborhoods at an alarming rate, while the downtown and Midtown are in better shape today than they were then. But New Center was in better shape in the 80s than today.

**downtownguy** · March-23-12, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by SaintMe

He's talking about this shit at Chase Tower, and his whole article is spot on.

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Pics from this article
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/des...-detroit/1546/

From the People Mover, I've peeked in the Windows of The Madison. It reminds me of the sort of informal workplaces Silicon Valley is known for. As for Chase, I don't really care much about what they do on the inside, since I will rarely see it. It is a fairly bland building outside and the contrast from outside to inside is stunning. If I worked there, it would probably give me a headache, but if I had occasion to visit, I think I would appreciate the novelty and fun design inside.

**Gistok** · March-23-12, 03:02 PM

Geeze.... I didn't realize that the term garish in interior design was just brought up a few notches.... I guess we could call it "Daycare Deco"....

And here I thought LEGO designs were garish... [[although in the nicest possible way!)

http://www.ericharshbarger.org/cgi-b...go/images/desk

http://www.ericharshbarger.org/lego/clock.html

**swingline** · March-23-12, 04:14 PM

It's true, there are too many lessons to count that Detroit could take from Grand Rapids regarding what to do and what not to do to promote economic development and the liveability of its region. The entire GR region, right down to the smallest suburban municipality or mostly rural nearby township, understands that a declining, broken down central city will spell doom for everyone. They waste little time with the "what's in it for me" debates that dominate SE Michigan politics surrounding urban policies.

That said, GR and Detroit are far from an apples to apples comparison. The Grand Rapids public schools are troubled, but the collapse of the Detroit Public Schools is so much more profound and is an infinitely larger obstacle to righting the ship in Detroit. Geographically, the GRPS is one-third the size of DPS. Many of the adjoining districts in Kent County participate in Schools of Choice giving Grand Rapids middle class families who demand higher achieving schools several reasonable options for their children besides abandoning the city. [[Grand Rapids is 65% white, the the school district is only 17% white, the high schools below 10%. The test scores are in the 20-30 percentile.)

The smaller geographic size of the Grand Rapids area allows for the suburban population to maintain an easier connection to the cultural, entertainment and community resources that are based in the central city. Rockford is considered on the outer fringes and it is only 15 miles from downtown Grand Rapids. In Detroit, however, middle class flight often results in relocation 25 or more miles away in another county. In this way, important connections have been lost over the past two generations and this has fundamentally affected the debate regarding regionalsim.