Downtown Mall Rumors False

[laphoque]

You see everyone, the most central and most densely trafficked part of the region and state just doesn't have enough people to support retail. If the future is in Novi, Troy, and Howell then Detroit Metro's future is continued stagnation.

Here is Taubman in the Free Press saying Detroit is not ready.

[Scottathew]

I still am strongly against a mall-style self-contained retail development. Detroit doesn't need to be like the suburbs, it needs to be an urban environment with heavily walked streets lined with stores that have office and residential spaces on top of them.

If we take the moment that's starting in Detroit and throw it all away in a self-contained safe-zone mall box, then we might as well give up.

[SteveJ]

Detroit can only support a mall of party stores and dollar stores. No retail of value is going to come to Detroit.

[313WX]

You see everyone, the most central and most densely trafficked part of the region and state just doesn't have enough people to support retail. If the future is in Novi, Troy, and Howell then Detroit Metro's future is continued stagnation.

Here is Taubman in the Free Press saying Detroit is not ready.

We already know this.

The thing is [[and what I've come to the realization of) Metro Detroiters don't mind stagnation at all, espcially if those are the results [[lets me honest, most people in Novi, Troy and Howel don't give Detroit second thought, whether downtown or the neighborhoods, a second thought [[other than to go out of their way to say they have absolutely no connection with the city, or to se an occasional sports game), and in their lifetimes, they won't need to). They've had to deal with it for over 40 years, and they pretty much considered it normal now thanks to conditioning [[just like Detroiters and Detroit).

BTW, I highly doubt downtown Detroit is the most trafficked part of the Metro area. I would think that's either M-59 in Macomb County, Orchard Lake Road around 14/15 mile, Ford Road near I-275, John R. between I-696 and Big Beaver, 14 Mile between Stephenson Highway and Dequindre or Big Beaver in Troy.

Downtown/midtown are still relative ghost towns in comparison to the downtowns in other cities. The worst traffic I've experienced anywhere down there at anytime [[non-game day and during rush hour) is on Mack near the I-75 entrance heading out of Midtown.

Downtown and Detroit's neighborhoods may very well be one of the densest areas in the region, but that's mostly thanks to the fact that they were built historically dense infrastructurally, not necessarily bcause they have that large of a population relative to other parts of the region.

[davewindsor]

You see everyone, the most central and most densely trafficked part of the region and state just doesn't have enough people to support retail. If the future is in Novi, Troy, and Howell then Detroit Metro's future is continued stagnation.

Here is Taubman in the Free Press saying Detroit is not ready.

What I've been saying all along. Malls and big box stores like Target and Walmart don't fit the algorithm for downtown and mid-town development when you average in resident's incomes within several square miles.

Glad a major mall developer was honest about it.

[louis]

thats good news. while a mall would be cool we simply don't have a base of shops to support a mall. thus it would fail

[mikeg19]

I'm happy he said this and kinda squashed this rumor. Now what is Taubman's definition of not ready yet? Not ready in the sense he doesn't think Detroit can support it yet, or Mr. I hasn't formally proposed a entertainment/mall/stadium concept to him yet? Things could change drastically in the, lets say, 5-10 years the new stadium is away from being potentially built. Personally, I don't really want to see a "mall" concept downtown. I want to see storefronts. I want to see streets like Washington and Woodward full of merchants, where you actually have to walk around to get to.

[corktownyuppie]

The key is not ready "yet". It will happen. I think the problem is that many Detroiter's definition of "long-term" is 24 months. Looking at the next 5-10 years for downtown and midtown, the trends are very positive.

Also, this is also the reason why we can't come to conclusion about the EM/Consent Decree. If you're looking 12-24 months, then life will suck no matter what.

But getting our financial house in order gives hope for the next 10-20 years.

[EastsideAl]

Why in the world would we want a mall downtown? That's the exact opposite of what is needed here, and the exact opposite of what downtowns, and cities, are.

Taubman can keep his malls, and keep them out in the hinterlands.

[Gistok]

Detroit can only support a mall of party stores and dollar stores. No retail of value is going to come to Detroit.

Didn't you forget to include wig shops and nail salons in your pointless comment?

[Bham1982]

You see everyone, the most central and most densely trafficked part of the region and state just doesn't have enough people to support retail.

Except that Detroit actually isn't "the most central and most densely trafficked part of the region and state". If this were the case, then the demographics would be suitable for large-scale retail.

That's basically the whole point. Detroit needs to become the center, and needs to receive more "traffic" if it wants large-scale retail. When you drive into Detroit from pretty much any direction, the traffic actually drops off when you hit the city limits.

[Wheels]

Didn't you forget to include wig shops and nail salons in your pointless comment?

Seems like Liquor and Gun stores do quite well also.

[erikd]

I don't think that Taubman understands what Gilbert is talking about. Gilbert is not planning a regional shopping mall, rather he is planning to re-activate the lower Woodward storefronts. The plan something more akin to the retail found in downtown Royal Oak and Ann Arbor, and completely unlike Lakeside or Oakland Mall.

[downtownguy]

Why in the world would we want a mall downtown? That's the exact opposite of what is needed here, and the exact opposite of what downtowns, and cities, are.

Taubman can keep his malls, and keep them out in the hinterlands.

Amen, Taubman's comments sound self-serving here. And condescending and pejorative, too.

"I have heard that Danny Gilbert has been talking about the idea of a 'big bang' of residential and retail development," Taubman said.

Has anybody heard Mr. Gilbert referred to as Danny before?

[erikd]

Amen, Taubman's comments sound self-serving here. And condescending and pejorative, too.

"I have heard that Danny Gilbert has been talking about the idea of a 'big bang' of residential and retail development," Taubman said.

Has anybody heard Mr. Gilbert referred to as Danny before?

I was thinking the same thing when I read the article. I have never heard Dan Gilbert called "Danny" before.

[GOAT]

The key is not ready "yet". It will happen. I think the problem is that many Detroiter's definition of "long-term" is 24 months. Looking at the next 5-10 years for downtown and midtown, the trends are very positive.

Also, this is also the reason why we can't come to conclusion about the EM/Consent Decree. If you're looking 12-24 months, then life will suck no matter what.

But getting our financial house in order gives hope for the next 10-20 years.

Thats what Detroit said in 1973, 1983, 1993.....

[313WX]

Amen, Taubman's comments sound self-serving here. And condescending and pejorative, too.

"I have heard that Danny Gilbert has been talking about the idea of a 'big bang' of residential and retail development," Taubman said.

Has anybody heard Mr. Gilbert referred to as Danny before?

It has a condescending vibe to it, especially given the context behind it.

Sort of like Ronnie Reagan.

So yeah, he may have quite possibly said his name that way intentionally.

[canuck]

Well, if a mall were to happen downtown, it would have to favor multiple accesses on street level and promote circulation within and without. For the city, multiplying retail along the corridors and sidestreets should be the prime goal. A developer will likely want to keep the shopper enticed and avoid sending him off to the competition across the street.

The balance is a delicate one.

Detroit is in need of retail, new dwellers in the city core, tourist attraction, and bustle.

The needs of the developer are manifold too, the risks involved in Detroit higher than elsewhere. The existing lack of competition means the promoters wont want to fight for the meager bucks that a paltry few could bring to the pot.

This also underscores the need for fine-tuned projects to vitalize and promote existing downtown businesses by city planners. The mall potential is there if it involves rehabilitating and integrating buildings of interest, and eliminating features that buffer the street and are overly self contained. This means that attractive historic buildings on Woodward could find new mixed-use functions where shoppers and office folk would increase circulation. Once the buzz of a successful project happens, the ball needs to keep rolling but the trick is to always yield to the street businesses in the following projects. The Ren Cen mall is self contained and remote from street retail and is an example of what needs to be avoided. It does the job for the size of the complex though, and is a valuable asset for downtown anyways.

[Novine]

Who builds malls in downtown areas? The fact that it's even being discussed shows how little understanding there is in the Detroit area of what makes successful urban areas. It's not by building malls.

[corktownyuppie]

Thats what Detroit said in 1973, 1983, 1993.....

I think bankuptcy is a much a different story, don't you?

[gumby]

Isn't the winter garden at the RenCen pretty much a mall? It was pretty empty last time I was there.

[jtf1972]

I am torn. While I don't think a traditional Taubman Temple is what Detroit needs, I would like to see some of the box stores. Give me a Target, Bed, Bath & Beyond, etc. If done right they can be successful. Just don't build them as they would be way out in the suburbs. We have seen how they can be incorporated in an actual city. As much as many have tried to destroy it, this IS still a city [[and the most important in the region.)

[Zacha341]

And the stores roll up the sidewalk and close by 6:00 as most stores have done in downtown Detroit historically. And then the problem of parking. Forget it! For those who are into malls Fairlane, Oakland, Eastland etc are far more convenient and they are open until 9:00 PM. Target a bit later.

Isn't the winter garden at the RenCen pretty much a mall? It was pretty empty last time I was there.

[DetroitPlanner]

I was thinking the same thing when I read the article. I have never heard Dan Gilbert called "Danny" before.

Yeah I have. I have also heard Robert Taubman referred to as Bobby.

[laphoque]

Average Daily Traffic map of the Metro Area. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/detmetro_19640_7.pdf If you take the sum of the Lodge, Southfield, I-75, I-94, I-96, and the radial streets within the city, traffic is greater than any other place. Not that other cities don't have significant traffic. But Detroit has five significant freeways [[plus the Davison), plus surface streets with lesser but still high amounts of traffic. Not all those people necessarily stop in the city. There is probably some duplication in numbers. But a lot of people do commute through and could do shopping here.

Although I'd love to see expanded mass transit and something like DC's Union Station here, retail would probably have to accommodate cars here.