Iran Shows It Has What It Takes

[WolverinesA2]

Read some of our history:

""1490-1492 – Columbus’ commission was given to set out to find a new world.
According to Columbus’ personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to “bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. …. It was the Lord who put into my mind … that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely … No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service.� [[Columbus’ Book of Prophecies)""

Columbus discovered Hispanola, NOT the mainland United States. Columbus never set foot on what would become American soil.

And if you want to attribute the genocide of Native Americans and enslavement committed "in the name of Jesus Christ" by Columbus to Christianity, then you aren't really helping the "our national Christian heritage is a good thing" argument. How is genocide and slavery committed in the name of Jesus Christ something worth celebrating?

[Lorax]

That's because he's really never learned any history outside of what he was probably taught in some religious academy.

[Sstashmoo]

You only read one reference to Christianity in our formation, there is plenty more.



""Summer 2-4, 1776 – Declaration of Independence written and signed.
“We hold these truths … that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence…”
As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come.”
On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”
Historian and philosopher G.K. Chesterton said of the founding of America that it is “the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth in dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence.”
September 17, 1787 – The Constitution of the United States is finished.""

[mjs]

Batts, weren't you asking who granted the inalienable rights? The founders considered them to be god given rights so no man could sell them and no man could take them away. I love the First Amendment, but people have to realize that laws are society's rules based on their norms and values. Norms and values are heavily based on the predominate religion. No matter how sincerely you try to seperate them, laws will have a religious influence. For example, marriage rights will be differ in a predominately christian nation versus a predominately muslim nation versus a predominately mormon nation. And laws on self defense and animal cruelty will differ between a predominately christian nation and a predominately hindu nation. Now, we obviously make alot more effort than Iran or victorian England, but religion will always factor in.

[gibran]

...ever since they painted a cross on a shield and declared a just battle or war, or claimed as in the old testiment victory has been blesssed has societies moved away from true Judeo-Christian values...every time you establish a country based on religious principles and try to make it homogeneous you move away from the tenets of most religions..especially when there is a heterogeneous population...

we as people bastardize the good things about religion: the morals and values they bring to the table...that is why countries that claim to be founded for the purpose of religion become very intolerant for those not practicing their religion...and why there has to be a separation from state ...doesn't mean a country like the US can't evolve to adopt principles learned from the basic messages..as long as it applies them equally to all people...

the problem in many countries is that while claiming they have been established by a higher authority, or that they are there to protect themselves from others views or values, they become what they are escaping from in the first place..thus the fragility of man.

True believers in many religions wouldn't kill, murder, build walls around people, blow up innocents, kill non believers, practice genocide, ethnic cleansing etc... they would practice what they say in their books if that is truly peaceful ...but it's sad how man through the ages has twisted their beliefs to justify any of the above.

secularism in government shouldn't be considered a bad thing,-it is needed as long as people want their religion to top others or to justify establishmenst of countries, colonize, justify wars, practice ethnic cleansing etc. Religion is a personal choice, an individual code of conduct when applied as directed...but a terrible tool when used to create separation or control of others...One just has to look to the middle-east for good religions gone bad, in the hands of man who want countries based on their religion when living in countries with other types of practices.

[rb336]

You only read one reference to Christianity in our formation, there is plenty more.

""Summer 2-4, 1776 – Declaration of Independence written and signed.
“We hold these truths … that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence…”

Those are distinctly NON-Xtian formulations, rather they are Deist

September 17, 1787 – The Constitution of the United States is finished.

another distinctly secular document, not in any way Xtian

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "secularism in government shouldn't be considered a bad thing"

I personally don't see it as a bad thing, just when someone ignorantly makes the statement that this country was founded on secularism, I call it out. Nothing could be further from the truth, as the timeline of events and statements from the framers indicating their beliefs point out. These were not Atheists that formed this country.

Regarding the "separation" issue. Many claim now that this meant to keep Church out of government, I can guarantee that was NOT their intention. They meant keep government out of the church. They even reiterate, saying Congress shall pass no laws governing the Church, Freedom of religion, Freedom of religious expression, etc. Remember, many of them were fleeing religious persecution. There is not one reference to keeping the Church out of government back then. Only the separation concept that has been twisted recently to serve an agenda.

[rb336]

Quote: "secularism in government shouldn't be considered a bad thing"

I personally don't see it as a bad thing, just when someone ignorantly makes the statement that this country was founded on secularism, I call it out. Nothing could be further from the truth, as the timeline of events and statements from the framers indicating their beliefs point out. These were not Atheists that formed this country.

Jefferson, Adams [[actually John and Sam), Franklin, Washington, Madison and several other "founding fathers" were derided by clergy of the day as heretics. The anti-religion comments from them are well known and easy to track down.. In an era when laws were being passed that made atheism an offense punishable by death, it is not surprising that no one was saying flat out that they were atheist.

Regarding the "separation" issue. Many claim now that this meant to keep Church out of government, I can guarantee that was NOT their intention. They meant keep government out of the church. They even reiterate, saying Congress shall pass no laws governing the Church, Freedom of religion, Freedom of religious expression, etc. Remember, many of them were fleeing religious persecution. There is not one reference to keeping the Church out of government back then. Only the separation concept that has been twisted recently to serve an agenda.

actually, it was both. you clearly haven't read any of Jefferson's or Madison's arguments, and the 1st amendment clearly states that they shall make no laws respecting religion. not "in respect to" but "respecting." The letters written about the phrasing clearly indicate a desire to not confer any special status on any religion.

there are dozens upon dozens of references to keeping religion out of government, including article vi of the constitution which states that no religious test shall ever be required for someone to hold office.

Adams said our laws were not based on Christian traditions, but on English Civil Law, which traces its roots to the pagan Anglo-Saxons

[gibran]

I agree but people's influence may not be as direct or indistinguishable as we would like to believe...that is the argument against objectivity. We construct our beliefs based on a variety of influences..including cultural etc.

[mjs]

Adams said our laws were not based on Christian traditions, but on English Civil Law, which traces its roots to the pagan Anglo-Saxons

You need sources for this. The US and England use the common law system, not the Roman based civil law system. Common law came from the King always being right because thats why God himself put the King in charge. If you had a dispute, you went to the king to settle it. If you were smart, you asked one of the King's Counselor's to argue your case. Its where we get the term counselor. Counselor's often held the title of Esquire which is a title many attorneys still use. As the number of cases grew, the King delegated his decisions to Judges who were supposed to do what the King would do which is where we got precedence and stare decisis.

Americans hated the King, but not its legal system, and didn't want an American King to replace the British one they were fighting. John Adams was the attorney that got the British soldiers of the Boston Massacre Acquitted. The law and legal rights were the thing most dear to him. If here today, he'd be an ACLU attorney fighting for Guitanimo detainees. Thomas Paine's "Common Sense", a gigantic influence on the signing of the Declaration of Independence, goes into great depth to dispel the Divine Right of Kings. The King's authority was based on religion. The peasants didn't overthrow the King because the Church told them that going against an appointee of God is like going against God himself and you'd burn in eternal hell for it. The enlightenment lead to our revolution and a system of government where church leaders didn't choose the political leaders.

Like Medieval Europe, Iran isn't ran directly by the religious leaders, but their approval is necessary for the political leadership to remain in power.

[Sstashmoo]

Rb,

These folks were predominantly Christian, when they used terms like "Creator" "Providence" "heavens" "Father" they are referring to Christ. You can believe what you want, the point stands. When our Presidents are sworn in on the ..you guessed it .. Bible, why do you think that is? When they opted to put "In God we trust" on our money, I ask the same. In our pledge, the phrase "One nation under God". Our laws are based on the ten commandments. Lie to a grand jury if you don't believe it. Ask Martha on that. I mean you folks must be outraged, the government forcing someone to tell the truth. What the hell kind of freedom is that? This is a God fearing nation, and as Cheddar says, there is nothing you can do about it.

We need to put prayer back in school, the pledge of allegience, nativity scenes, it wasn't violating anyone's rights. The removal of these was all based on lies.

[rb336]

Rb,

These folks were predominantly Christian, when they used terms like "Creator" "Providence" "heavens" "Father" they are referring to Christ. You can believe what you want, the point stands. When our Presidents are sworn in on the ..you guessed it .. Bible, why do you think that is? When they opted to put "In God we trust" on our money, I ask the same. In our pledge, the phrase "One nation under God". Our laws are based on the ten commandments. Lie to a grand jury if you don't believe it. Ask Martha on that. I mean you folks must be outraged, the government forcing someone to tell the truth. What the hell kind of freedom is that? This is a God fearing nation, and as Cheddar says, there is nothing you can do about it.

We need to put prayer back in school, the pledge of allegience, nativity scenes, it wasn't violating anyone's rights. The removal of these was all based on lies.

who is feeding you this bovine fecal matter? the founders were not, for the most part, devout christians, and there is a pile of evidence in their own words. I think you need to read the treaty of Tripoli

the phrase "one nation under god" was added to the pledge in the heat of the McCarthy era, and "in god we trust" as an official motto dates to the same time, although it started use on coins in the civil war era. this is a secular nation full of superstitious, "god" fearing people. read some REAL history, and not the pseudohistory the right wing religious whack jobs shove down your throught before you canabalize your god

[mjs]

Our laws are based on the ten commandments. Lie to a grand jury if you don't believe it.

I'm not understanding the connection. Please expand on this argument.

I'm baffled by ever lying to a grand jury or advising it to anyone under any circumstances. Everyone has a Fifth Amendment right to avoid perjury by not answering at all. Even though people have to swear to tell the truth and can be subject to perjury charges just like Kwame, people are no longer required to swear on a bible or swear to God to tell the truth. One of the main reasons is that the Oath isn't very effective if you're not a God fearing person.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "the founders were not, for the most part, devout christians, and there is a pile of evidence in their own words"

If there is a pile of evidence, how about some of it? And please no direct contradictions against your own points like you've been doing.

Mjs, I know, I was clumsily trying to make a point.

[Pam]

Quote: "the founders were not, for the most part, devout christians, and there is a pile of evidence in their own words"

If there is a pile of evidence, how about some of it? And please no direct contradictions against your own points like you've been doing.

.

Did you know Jefferson made his own version of the Bible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

The Jefferson Bible begins with an account of Jesus’s birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. Miracles, references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus' resurrection are also absent from the Jefferson Bible.

We need to put prayer back in school

There is nothing stopping any school child from praying silently all day long if they wish. Why does the teacher or the rest of the class have to be involved for God to hear the prayer?

nativity scenes, it wasn't violating anyone's rights. The removal of these was all based on lies.

Nativity scenes can be displayed in front of churches and homes.

[Detroitej72]

Nativity scenes can be displayed in front of churches and homes.

For now.

A year or so ago, in Sterling Heights, an atheist and the ACLU tried to ban a Nativity scene and a statue of Blessed Mother on the front lawn of a gentleman's house. It seems the dear atheist felt that seeing the statues infringed upon his right of a religious free neighborhood.

Fortunately common sense prevailed and the homeowner, along help from his Muslim neighbor who stood by him in court, was able to continue the displays.


And Stosh, most of the Founding Fathers were known Deists, not staunch Christians. They sought to not have a state sponsored church, everyone is[[was) free to worship in whatever way they felt was just.

[Pam]

A year or so ago, in Sterling Heights, an atheist and the ACLU tried to ban a Nativity scene and a statue of Blessed Mother on the front lawn of a gentleman's house.

Do you have any info. that supports this story? It sounds like an urban legend.

[Detroitej72]

Do you have any info. that supports this story? It sounds like an urban legend.

It was in the Free Press, or maybe the News, can't remember which.

I heard about it through my fiancé's parents who live in the subdivision.

[Sstashmoo]

Do you have any info. that supports this story? It sounds like an urban legend.

Fox2 covered it about 4 years ago. It went on for days. Pam, one cannot display a nativity scene anywhere. Seriously, it is some blow molded figures with [[deluxe model) light bulbs inside, possibly flashing, possibly not.

It's like the idiots that claimed they were offended because the ten commandments were displayed in a courthouse down south, they won, it was removed. It really makes no difference to me.

[Pam]

I tried googling this alleged nativity story and the only thing I found was about a guy in Novi who was asked to remove a nativity scene by his subdivision because it violated some rule or another that they had. The ACLU was not involved. I looked at the ACLU site and the only nativity scene cases they were involved in were with ones on govt. owned property. The Constitution allows you to display one on private property.

[Detroitej72]

The Constitution allows you to display one on private property.

And that is how it should be.

Neighborhood associations are another beast entirely, but that's for another thread!

BTW, I think I'm confusing the Nativity scene. It was just a statue of Blessed Mother in Sterling Heights that caused the uproar, I was corrected by my better half.

[Detroitej72]

It's like the idiots that claimed they were offended because the ten commandments were displayed in a courthouse down south, they won, it was removed. It really makes no difference to me.

I always find it rather ironic that people get all worked up about that, but they never give a second thought to an obelisk marker, and statues of Greek gods anywhere on public property.[[I've seen a statue of Neptune at a public aquarium) I also remember the Farmer Jack at Coolidge and 696 had a large menorah on the wall above the office. None of this is hurting anybody, so why make a big deal about it?

Could it be that they just want some attention?

[Sstashmoo]

I have no problem with religious expression of others, strange architecture, I won't go into detail. To each their own. I have no problem with our government engaging in those expressions. Our President lighting the Menorah for Hanukkah, Our post office selling stamps celebrating Kwanzaa, the religion started by the the Keyes fellow a few years back. Shows that our government is diverse in it's interests. And this is a nation of diversity.

There is a definite push and has been for quite some time to eradicate Christianity in this country. What makes these folks tick? I have a few theories, but the reality is, it won't matter. What they see as a victory is seen as affirmation by the believer. They are fulfilling scripture and probably don't even realize it.

[ccbatson]

Wow...I agree Sstashmoo...expression is to be free. However, organized religion exerting any influence in the operation of government is to be prohibited.

[Lorax]

I know some of you want desperately to believe there is some sort of religious perogative in our Constitution, and somehow our laws are created by, and for Christians. However, this is not the case.

If we had a non-Christian president, do you think he/she would be using a bible to be sworn in on?

We handle the institution of marriage as a secular one, as it only becomes a religious rite when the individuals involved choose to make it such.

You are just as legally married in this country married outside a place of worship, by a sea captain, justice of the peace, a mayor, etc. This is why the idea of same-sex marriage is catching on, finally, since there is no constitutional basis for rejecting it.

It took a couple of centuries of getting past the man-injected religious content to finally enforce the secular rights of marriage granted us from the beginning.

Our laws are equally neutral and unbiased, as it should be, since not everyone in America is a Christian. Many are Atheist, Muslim, Hebrew, etc.

What is continually amazing to me are the Christians who are trying to force feed their ideals on the rest of us through shcool prayer, abortion rights, displaying the ten commandments in public places, etc. This assertion that we are somehow a "Christian" nation is a misnomer. Even the founding fathers would agree.

No where in our Constitution is there an established state religion.

Freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion are protected and cherished. Separation of church and state is indemic in our Constitution, written about at length by Jefferson and Madison, and in fact, strengthens both religion and non-believers by offering a level playing field.

When Christian fundamentalists attempt to subvert our Constitution by forcing their ideals on the rest of us is when we need to take action to protect our inalienable rights.

Oh, and the part about "our creator" is about as vague as it got in the 18th century, and is a perfectly apt description of the intent of our founding fathers.