An arena AND a mall?

**Pcm** · February-22-12, 10:10 AM

From Fox 2:

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...it-20120221-ms

**dmike76** · February-22-12, 10:14 AM

Yeah I read that....not sure how much we can read into it but that would be pretty sweet. There are so many questions about that. If they DO build some shopping, what kind of 'mall' would it be? What kind of stores? I dunno. Obviously too early to tell but I think something like that could be excellent for rebuilding portions of that Foxtown area. Maybe they can build some housing on those dirt parking lots back there and maybe even rehab the Hotel Park Avenue.

**dmike76** · February-22-12, 10:15 AM

Danny, more retail brings in more money for the city which means infrastructure upgrades. That is IF the city can manage it's money. AND people with money may actually want to live down there if they can shop which means more tax base.

**Enduro** · February-22-12, 10:21 AM

I love the idea of having retail at the arena but I'm curious exactly how much they're asking the state to chip in for this non-essential project in this economy. I also wonder if the Pistons are on board and if that would help their cause. Not too many people are keen on driving to the Palace and the Pistons attendance really suffers when the team is struggling and playing at home the same night the Wings are at home.

**tkelly1986** · February-22-12, 10:34 AM

Something akin to the Columbia Heights neighborhood in DC could be a model for the stretch of Woodward south of Midtown. There is a new "mall" that houses a Target, BestBuy, Marshall's and a few other stores, all with parking in a garage [[behind the stores). The development creates a street-wall effect. As for the arena itself, the Verizon Center in DC should also be used as an example. It blends in well with the Chinatown neighborhood and even has an attached theater/retail complex. Again, its built right up to the street.

**mrpatlast** · February-22-12, 11:02 AM

You put indoor retail in downtown Detroit and it will set back store front redevelopment another 10 years. On top of that, god only knows what kind of parking requirements a mall would need. Given Ilitch's parking genius with Comerica Park [[surface lots on Woodward..................) Im guessing a sea of surface lots would dominate the landscape.

State money for an arena for a millionaire............... Always torn on this one. Love the wings but the state needs to focus on matters greater than sports entertainment. On top of that, new arena, new sponsor. Welcome to Pampers Arena. Home of the Red Wings.

**Bham1982** · February-22-12, 11:12 AM

I doubt there would be a new mall, with the glut of retail space downtown and throughout the region.

I also wouldn't take urban redevelopment rumors from a hockey coach too seriously. "Mall" could simply mean retail space.

Taubman proposed a downtown mall back in the 70's and 80's, with Hudson's as one of two prospective anchors. They never found a second anchor, so the project wasn't built.

Nowadays downtown malls just aren't built. Pretty much no traditional malls have been in any downtown in any American city in recent years.

**Scottathew** · February-22-12, 11:16 AM

I don't know if I really want to see a mall. I want to see us concentrate more on bringing retail to Woodward.

**stinkytofu** · February-22-12, 12:19 PM

I would love it to be designed something similarly to what Columbus has with their relatively new hockey arena. It's nestled right into a neighborhood with a bunch of outdoor retail that seemed to be all developed together. It's really, really well done IMO and leads to a bunch of foot traffic & an active nightlife even on non-game/event nights.

**stinkytofu** · February-22-12, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

I don't know if I really want to see a mall. I want to see us concentrate more on bringing retail to Woodward.

I agree. I have no desire for an indoor mall at all...something more open would possibly be OK though.

**drjeff** · February-22-12, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I doubt there would be a new mall, with the glut of retail space downtown and throughout the region.

I also wouldn't take urban redevelopment rumors from a hockey coach too seriously. "Mall" could simply mean retail space.

Taubman proposed a downtown mall back in the 70's and 80's, with Hudson's as one of two prospective anchors. They never found a second anchor, so the project wasn't built.

Nowadays downtown malls just aren't built. Pretty much no traditional malls have been in any downtown in any American city in recent years.

They built a mall across from the inner harbor [[which was a sort of mall/marketplace hybrid) in Baltimore back in the earl 1990s. That may have been one of the last ones. No idea how the mall is doing now, but the touristy inner harbor buildings are now mostly vacant.

I think traditional malls in general are becoming relics and it would make no sense to build one in Detroit.

**downtownguy** · February-22-12, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

I would love it to be designed something similarly to what Columbus has with their relatively new hockey arena. It's nestled right into a neighborhood with a bunch of outdoor retail that seemed to be all developed together. It's really, really well done IMO and leads to a bunch of foot traffic & an active nightlife even on non-game/event nights.

We had that once. It was called Tiger Stadium.

The fact is Ilitch always proposes these extras every time he comes to government for another handout or favor. For the Fox renovation, it was "Little Italy," a Greektown knockoff to be built between the State/Fillmore and Fox [[now a parking lot). For the CoPa, it was to be a string of Applebee's and Bennigan's leading up to the ballpark [[now parking lots). Thank the Lord that didn't happen. And when they needed some extra parking for the All Star Game/Superbowl, they knocked down the Madison-Lennox promising to rebuild afterwards [[it's now a parking lot).

It sounds to me like Babcock may have been "coached" to float a few balloons on behalf of Ilitch's interests. Billionaire Ilitch can't ask for government money in the middle of a recession, but Coach Mike "23 wins and counting at home" Babcock can say it

"That's why we need the state to jump on side and the sooner the better. If we're going to revitalize Michigan, it's got to start right here in Detroit," Babcock said.

**stinkytofu** · February-22-12, 12:52 PM

Wait...are you talking about those mini-stores right at on the property of Tiger Stadium at Michigan/Trumbell being comparable to the integration of the hockey arena in Columbus with basically a full-blown neighbhorhood of development? I don't know if you've been to Columbus...but those two situations are much, much different.

I'm not doubting that Ilitch is probably full of typical BS here, but I just don't think those projects are similar.

**Hypestyles** · February-22-12, 12:58 PM

more retail needed, in whatever form.. a new arena needed, preferably downtown compared to Auburn Hills...

**Gistok** · February-22-12, 01:09 PM

Maybe you are all reading too much into one word.... "Mall"... WSU has a mall... that large open pedestrian space next to the Student Union [[giving stunning views of the Fisher Bldg. in the distance) that would have been a continuation of 2nd Ave., had it not temporarily ended at W. Warren Ave. [[it continues on north of the campus).

The Ilitch plan of 10-15 years ago was for an "AGORA", Greek/Macedonian for marketplace... with a Hard Rock Cafe anchoring the [[Fillmore side) corner of Columbia and Woodward. But we saw that nothing ever became of that marketplace, except the closure of Columbia St. for 1/2 block near Woodward.

So whatever the word "Mall" means in Babcock's comments... I'm biding my time to get excited...

**stinkytofu** · February-22-12, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

more retail needed, in whatever form.. a new arena needed, preferably downtown compared to Auburn Hills...

Everyone agrees more retail is needed, but this discussion is basically the whole point of urban planning. While there is smart, well-thought out development, there is also illogical development for the purpose of just getting things done immediately. This sounds like this could be a game changer...I hope to god the developers use their brains.

**Detroitnerd** · February-22-12, 01:20 PM

Just as malls are dying across the country, they propose one for Detroit. This is foolish.

If implemented, I agree it would set back traditional storefront retail a decade, and it would probably be demolished-repurposed anyway within 20 years. Maybe they can sell the city another police headquarters, but there's only so much payola to go around...

**cramerro** · February-22-12, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Maybe you are all reading too much into one word.... "Mall"... WSU has a mall... that large open pedestrian space next to the Student Union [[giving stunning views of the Fisher Bldg. in the distance) that would have been a continuation of 2nd Ave., had it not temporarily ended at W. Warren Ave. [[it continues on north of the campus).

The Ilitch plan of 10-15 years ago was for an "AGORA", Greek/Macedonian for marketplace... with a Hard Rock Cafe anchoring the [[Fillmore side) corner of Columbia and Woodward. But we saw that nothing ever became of that marketplace, except the closure of Columbia St. for 1/2 block near Woodward.

So whatever the word "Mall" means in Babcock's comments... I'm biding my time to get excited...

I'm with Gistok on this one. Especially given that Babcock is more of a Canadian influence, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mall that even thier wildest dreams is talking about is nothing like Fox 2 and all the flip-out artists on this post are making it out to be. Maybe it's some street-level retail that caters to the game crowds and others... Comerica park is a good example where they had a coney, a McDonalds, and a few shops that were originally open more than just game days [[not that they lasted).

I'd love to keep being picky like most of the forumers [[see also: light rail or bust), but the truth is that Detroit's resurgence isn't going to be some sort of magic key where all new growth takes the form of Chicago or New York or even dense areas of smaller cities like Columbus.

So you say its a big mall with Target and the like, and that the mall is obslete in 20 years? Perfect! For 20 years it provides a pretty damn good "egg" from the chicken and egg of what comes first, residents or retail. More residents mean more support for other downtown area retailers to ... gasp... compete for business! Around 15 or 20 or even 30 years down the road it's a great redevleopment opportunity... and probably is in about the same state of needing replacement as the 20 or 30 year old arena. We should be so lucky!

All I know is that they should do something so Illitch and others stop buying and clearing blocks in the various speculation zones... it's a bit rediculous at this point.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-22-12, 02:11 PM

Piston's own thier own arena. I doubt they would want to build something new or have to share something with the stipulations put on it by going in with the Wings, County, City, or State.

The County and City are broke. The State would set a bad precident by being involved with this as every other City will want something and use this as a justification.

A mall does not need to have anything more than a strip of grass [[think National Mall in DC). I would not read too much into this. Remember, Ford Field was supposed to be filled with stores and restraunts too and those places are still vacant. Between the number of events at Ford Field and nearby Comerica, this would have been a better draw for this type of development.

Whoops just read GIstock and Carmerro's posts. I am consistent with thier thoughts on this.

**Danny** · February-22-12, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by dmike76

Danny, more retail brings in more money for the city which means infrastructure upgrades. That is IF the city can manage it's money. AND people with money may actually want to live down there if they can shop which means more tax base.

Retail stores, businesses and other regional growth needs security [[ which is an illusion). To do that the vagrants and the sloppiness had to go. If you build a department store in Downtown Detroit without any security, crime will increase a hundred fold and the business would either get security or close. Some goes with a mall/Red Wings stadium.

**Scottathew** · February-22-12, 02:38 PM

The problem I have with a mall is we need to get away from self-contained, campus-like developments.

We need to have development plug into what's going on downtown, not create it's own little bubble that it lives inside.

The whole idea is rather selfish. He wants to use a taxpayer loan to build something and then contain all the prosperity within his walls, and not let it spill out into downtown streets.

**downtownguy** · February-22-12, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Wait...are you talking about those mini-stores right at on the property of Tiger Stadium at Michigan/Trumbell being comparable to the integration of the hockey arena in Columbus with basically a full-blown neighbhorhood of development? I don't know if you've been to Columbus...but those two situations are much, much different.

I'm not doubting that Ilitch is probably full of typical BS here, but I just don't think those projects are similar.

My point is that Tiger Stadium was fully integrated within a neighborhood and that it was surrounded by restaurants, bars, and yes, a little shopping [[if you like lumber -- haha!) that grew organically around it. I'm sure Columbus is nice, but in Detroit, I have more appreciation for the independent establishments that have sprung up around the CoPa than anything Ilitch proposes. I also think those establishments have more character than most planned developments.

**Detroitnerd** · February-22-12, 02:56 PM

Ilitch clearly looked at Tiger Stadium and thought, "Why the fuck should anybody be able to make money off of ME? I want to own the parking. I want to own the restaurants. I want to own the bars. I want to own everything!"

Of course, while deciding to do everything he could to turn his stadium into a self-contained mall where he made all the money, he had to have generous support from the taxpayers to make it happen.

Do you remember that? What was the reason? SKYBOXES! WE NEED SKYBOXES!

**downtownguy** · February-22-12, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

The Ilitch plan of 10-15 years ago was for an "AGORA", Greek/Macedonian for marketplace... with a Hard Rock Cafe anchoring the [[Fillmore side) corner of Columbia and Woodward. But we saw that nothing ever became of that marketplace, except the closure of Columbia St. for 1/2 block near Woodward.

I was quite involved in the Grand Circus neighborhood before and after Iltich moved in. I'll admit my memory can be fuzzy at times, but in 1987-88 [[25 years ago) when the Fox was being restored, I recall it being proposed as a "Little Italy." The only time I've heard development of an Agora is when you've posted about it here. In any case, it's a parking lot.

**cramerro** · February-22-12, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

My point is that Tiger Stadium was fully integrated within a neighborhood and that it was surrounded by restaurants, bars, and yes, a little shopping [[if you like lumber -- haha!) that grew organically around it. I'm sure Columbus is nice, but in Detroit, I have more appreciation for the independent establishments that have sprung up around the CoPa than anything Ilitch proposes. I also think those establishments have more character than most planned developments.

Waxing poetic about Tiger Stadium's urban fabric is not really respecting the facts and history and what's left of that area.

Yes, the field was there forever, and all around it were vibrant neighborhoods and storefronts. Bars, a cab company, some auto shops, some bars, a few restaurants, and a lumberyard. Once upon a time, in an era far, far away.

Fast forward the film reel to the 'hay day [[sp?)' of "Tiger Stadium" that we are familiar with. The late 60's... 70's... 80's of course. The stadium took the urban fabric and paved over its every defenseless corner. Parking lots were more valuable to landlords than some great homes in a great neighborhood. A giant double-freeway was dozed through, complete with what seems like a mile-long pedestrian bridge -- the only connection between the north and south parts of what was A great neighborhood. Signage for parking is like vomit all over every open lot, building, and street corner. And so it was fitting when one of the few vestiges of that fabric, the stadium itself, was leveled and now fits right in with the vacant lot tundra that took over the area.

Corktown was and in many ways is a great community in the city. Tiger Stadium was one of the greatest baseball facilities in history. But other than the economic spin-off of parking lot revenues and game-day bars, the stadium did the neighborhood in just as much if not more than many of the other presiding factors in the city's decline.

What a pessimistic point of view, I know. But this thread evoking 'urban neighborhood anchor' tags for Tiger Stadium coupled with a half hour I spent driving around there a few weeks back has really shed some new light on that area for me.